Author Topic: Optimizing a Core Only Wizard  (Read 9368 times)

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DerWille

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Re: Optimizing a Core Only Wizard
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2009, 05:10:39 AM »
Thanks for all the advice. I talked with my DM, he approved of Red Wizard so that is an option now. I don't think I can rebuild my character except for a Tattoo Focus <-> GSF: Conjuration swap so this was what I was thinking.

True Neutral Human
Conjurer 10/Loremaster 5/Archmage 5

1: Spell Focus: Conjuration, Tattoo Focus: Conjuration, Scribe Scroll(I so want to kill this annoying feat)
3: Improved Initiative
5: Empower Spell
6: Greater Spell Focus: Conjuration
9: Skill Focus: Knowledge Arcana
10: Quicken Spell
12: Spell Focus: Transmutation, Greater Spell Focus: Transmutation/Spell Penetration (Which ones would you recommend?)
13 or 15: Augment Summon
15: Skill Focus: Spellcraft
18: Quicken Spell-like Ability

Quote
Treantmonklvl20
The most broken stuff for Wizards is all in Core, so I don't think your DM is going to achieve what he's hoping for.

Amen brother. I keep telling him that.

Quote
Treantmonklvl20
If the core spells had appeared in any splatbook, it would be known as the splatbook that broke the game.

 I've been noticing that as I've gone through your recommended spell list. It feels like 80% of the best spells are on the SRD.


There's only 3 feats a core wizard needs: improved initative, empower spell, and quicken spell

wizard10/loremaster5/archmage5 is about as good as it gets. Just take tke Spell-like ability arcana for a good 4th or 5th level spell like polymorph and take quicken spell-like ability as your 18th level feat.

Done.

Don't forget solid fog and the various image spells.

 I've been staring at mirror image and invisibility in particular. Solid fog looks fun too.

Azrael

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Re: Optimizing a Core Only Wizard
« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2009, 06:57:54 AM »
I would say more like 60% but its not something I really want to debate.

I think the loremaster/archmage build is the best for wizard.

I have a core only sorc made up but hes only a sorc 15/arch 5. Cant be a loremaster because of all the divination spells.

What you should do is take Leadership if you DM will allow it. Then you get a Cleric/Hierophant/Thaumaturgist. Then the cohort has its own planar cohort which you use to get a tiefling/aasimar. So essentially you end up with a 20th level, a 17th level, and a 15th level character; and its all core-legal  :D

They are basically their own party.

DM probably wont allow it but its a good thing to do when you only have a few people in your party.

KellKheraptis

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Re: Optimizing a Core Only Wizard
« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2009, 07:08:04 AM »
I am usually hard pressed to justify Archmage, due to craptastic entry requirements, but considering it's one of the few ways to get efficient Reach spells, I'd say go for it.  I'd also personally see if you could at least get the completes back, for MotAO/Master Spec.  Also, if you can get a source of extra spell contributors, Red Wizard is TOTALLY worth it.  How'd you like to have unbeatable CL checks in core?  Not to mention effectively +11 or more DC on every spell, not counting the +DC on specialist spells, and to top it all off, if there are any uncapped damage spells in core, you're getting 40 dice to play with.  Hell, if you can get a ring of spell storing with Holy Word, you're golden when you use it (goodbye Mr. Dragon).
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Operation Shoestring

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Re: Optimizing a Core Only Wizard
« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2009, 08:11:54 AM »
My response to "core only is fair" to go full Loremaster and if the game gets that far, abuse the heck out of the legend lore as an SLA ability until the DM just hands over his notes and lets me skim them.

I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.

Azrael

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Re: Optimizing a Core Only Wizard
« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2009, 08:20:20 AM »
I wasn't underestimating it I was simply pointing out that having 7 divination spells for a sorcerer build is difficult.

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Re: Optimizing a Core Only Wizard
« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2009, 08:31:58 AM »
I wasn't underestimating it I was simply pointing out that having 7 divination spells for a sorcerer build is difficult.
Oh, I wasn't accusing you of underrating divination.  It was a general statement, not directed at you.

My DM used to joke that divination, bardic knowledge, and other "finding stuff out" abilities were basically the art of stealing the DM's notes.

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Re: Optimizing a Core Only Wizard
« Reply #26 on: November 08, 2009, 09:36:38 AM »
I wasn't underestimating it I was simply pointing out that having 7 divination spells for a sorcerer build is difficult.
Detect Poison, Detect Magic, Read Magic, True Strike. That's four right there.

The real bugger is the requirement of 10 ranks in two knowledge skills.

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DerWille

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Re: Optimizing a Core Only Wizard
« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2009, 10:18:45 AM »
PhaedrusXY: The extra con would be nice and the illusion DCs would be awesome if I could Shadowcraft Mage/Nightmare Spinner it. It's just that... I hate gnomes. It's entirely taste driven. Instead of a riding dog, would a light horse work just as well? It's a large creature, but it's 1x2 instead of 2x2.
It's better for transportation, but worse in every other way. A war trained riding dog is cheaper than a warhorse, and has a trip attack like a wolf. The barding for it is cheaper, also. And it can eat things you kill. ;)

Flavor is mutable. Not every gnome is a crazy tinker. The forest gnome in the MM1 is 10 lbs of kick ass in a 1 lb package, and has quite different flavor than normal gnomes, also.

Quote
Hmm, is improved Initiative better early on or later? I'm not sure if I can change it now, but I was thinking of getting it after I max my DCs as much as I can. So it'd be either level 3 or 9.
It's always better. :P

That dog sounds great to have even if you can't ride it.

I am usually hard pressed to justify Archmage, due to craptastic entry requirements, but considering it's one of the few ways to get efficient Reach spells, I'd say go for it.  I'd also personally see if you could at least get the completes back, for MotAO/Master Spec.  Also, if you can get a source of extra spell contributors, Red Wizard is TOTALLY worth it.  How'd you like to have unbeatable CL checks in core?  Not to mention effectively +11 or more DC on every spell, not counting the +DC on specialist spells, and to top it all off, if there are any uncapped damage spells in core, you're getting 40 dice to play with.  Hell, if you can get a ring of spell storing with Holy Word, you're golden when you use it (goodbye Mr. Dragon).

 It's not going to happen. I'm the only one who thinks that core only isn't fine. To quote the Cleric, "If I die, I'll just roll a monk because they don't die." I think this smilie captures some of my reaction  :twitch

 That circle magic trick would be awesome. That could fun.

My response to "core only is fair" to go full Loremaster and if the game gets that far, abuse the heck out of the legend lore as an SLA ability until the DM just hands over his notes and lets me skim them.

I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.

 OMGZYES!!!  :jumping I am totally getting a ton of divination spells. Which ones are good in particular? That is such a fun idea. I completely forgot about those spells!

 BTW - I agree about the fire thing.


KellKheraptis

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Re: Optimizing a Core Only Wizard
« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2009, 10:23:35 AM »
You could also roll the ideas together, too, getting Leadership for a Cleric summoner, and a nasty outsider as the third member, then always have the right SLA on hand from the Cleric since you already know what's in store for you.  Between the two of you as high level casters, you won't really ever be caught off guard, and your third can operate as a flexible member.  If he's running SRD=Core, I also nominate Thallherd :evil   Why lift a finger when you can send your willing adorers to do everything for you, reveling in the gory mess they become, only to be replaced like the cannon fodder they are the next morning!  But I digress...Leadership Wizard with full divinitory capability and a Pokemon Trainer cohort, and if you want thralls as a wizard...you still have Enchantment I'm hoping :P
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DerWille

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Re: Optimizing a Core Only Wizard
« Reply #29 on: November 08, 2009, 10:40:35 AM »
Unfortunately, SRD != Core. If it was just that, I'd probably mess around with Psionics just because I've never done it before (Probably a Psychic Warrior). I couldn't even get a hold of some Unearthed Arcana content to replace my Wizard feats with Fighter ones for Improved Initiative (Although, that might be more of a determent in core only). The Cleric buddy is tempting, but I feel that all it will do is prompt him to think Leadership = Broken! BAN! BAN! BAN! Which is what I don't want.

 But I would totally be down for D&D pokemon. Does D&D have gym badges?


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Re: Optimizing a Core Only Wizard
« Reply #30 on: November 08, 2009, 08:38:29 PM »
My aasimar summoning druid in age of worms actually has names for his greenbound summon creatures, I actually once said:

Seedlespitter, I choose you!!!  (Seedlespitter = swindlespitter with greenbound summoning)  While throwing a wooden ball on the ground.

Everyone laughed at the cute little creature.

Then it spit in the two ennemy fighter's face and blinded them.  That's when they stopped laughing. :P


Thaumaturge is TEH summoning class.  The guide to the malconvoker by Treantmonk also has some goos ummoning indicators.

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Re: Optimizing a Core Only Wizard
« Reply #31 on: November 09, 2009, 11:10:55 PM »
Core Wizard : needs a little more Cow-Bell ...  :eh

Anklebite

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Re: Optimizing a Core Only Wizard
« Reply #32 on: November 10, 2009, 05:34:29 AM »
dress like a monk or a rouge or whatever
wearing makeup doesn't stop a GM from targeting you.  people play female wizards too, yanno.

-----

also, I reccomend detect thoughts as a divination. it rocks. alot.

"ok guys, you don't know whether or not he is guil-"
"I cast detect thoughts."
".....ok then, you DO know that he is guilty. but you still don't know his accomplices."
"hey, guilty dude, who helped you do the crime?"
"....damnit, now you know that too. well, there goes that campain arc."
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Re: Optimizing a Core Only Wizard
« Reply #33 on: November 10, 2009, 09:03:29 AM »
Lame  :rollseyes
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Optimizing a Core Only Wizard
« Reply #34 on: November 10, 2009, 09:37:26 AM »
dress like a monk or a rouge or whatever
wearing makeup doesn't stop a GM from targeting you.  people play female wizards too, yanno.

-----

also, I reccomend detect thoughts as a divination. it rocks. alot.

"ok guys, you don't know whether or not he is guil-"
"I cast detect thoughts."
".....ok then, you DO know that he is guilty. but you still don't know his accomplices."
"hey, guilty dude, who helped you do the crime?"
"....damnit, now you know that too. well, there goes that campain arc."
I recommend contact other plane for the same reason.  Just remember that it's an ability check, so as such you can take 10 on it to avoid brain drain.  And even if you can't ask the same question twice, you can ask subtly different questions.  Or just flat out ask if the answer to that question was accurate. 
Also note the "some other one word answer" clause.  So "what's the first name of the murderer" is a completely valid question. 
There are even better ways to abuse it.  Remember, any number is a word, and binary encoding is fun and easy. 

If your DM decides that numbers aren't words, fallback is there are about a million words in the english language, and your high int wizard probably knows at least eight languages.  So that's 8 million+ possible words.  Staple the dictionaries together, and you can ask about 22 or 23 bits of arbitrary data with each question.  Use a bit in each as a checksum for the preceding data, and for high-value information add a few checksum metaquestions.
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DerWille

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Re: Optimizing a Core Only Wizard
« Reply #35 on: November 10, 2009, 09:58:54 AM »
Could you give me an example of this checksum question and answer? I'm having a hard time visualizing what you mean outside of some binary answer. Are you talking like a hex answer?

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Re: Optimizing a Core Only Wizard
« Reply #36 on: November 10, 2009, 10:26:46 AM »
He means asking:

"what's the answer to the multiple choice question written in this book?"

Apple) X
Pear) Y
Melon) Z
....

Then the spell answers "Apple", you know it's X. 

Have a good enough selection, you can get some information at every question. 

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Re: Optimizing a Core Only Wizard
« Reply #37 on: November 10, 2009, 11:43:43 AM »
Sort of.  Except more complicated.

Let's say the hyper abridged elven dictionary has these first four words
aardvark
badger
condor
dirt.

I want to find out if the assassin stalking me is an elf, and if she knows arcane magic.  I can get both of those by asking a single properly phrased question.

First, I write down the following
The assassin stalking me is an Elf = 1
The assassin stalking me knows arcane magic = 2
Then, I write numbers next to the words, in order
(this is strictly for simplification purposes - asking a hypothetical question removes the necessity of actually performing this step, but unnecessarily complicates the trick).
aardvark 0
badger 1
condor 2
dirt      3


Than I ask the following
"Which word in my big pile of dictionaries is numbered with the value equal to the sum of the true statements written on this card?"

If the answer is condor, I know the assassin is a non-elf using arcane magic.  If it's aardvark, the assassin is a nonelf without magic, and so on.

As for checksums, let say our note was:

The assassin stalking me is an Elf = 1
The assassin stalking me knows arcane magic = 2
The answer given to the question I asked on 3:26:46 November 9, 2009 was incorrect = 4

If I get 4 or above, I know that either my question at 3:26 was incorrect or the deity messed up this current question.  Yeah, technically it's not really a checksum, but the analogy is close enough. 
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Re: Optimizing a Core Only Wizard
« Reply #38 on: November 10, 2009, 04:45:00 PM »
Wow!  I may have to use this in a current game just to give the DM fits.  He is the type that generally discourages and often pretty arbitrarily squishes divinations.  That or he does the whole word parsing to such an extreme that most players have learned that it is pointless to even try divinations.  Of course, divinations for his villains work just fine grrrr.
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DerWille

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Re: Optimizing a Core Only Wizard
« Reply #39 on: November 10, 2009, 07:13:15 PM »
So let me try throwing this back at you to see if I understood it correctly.

 I use the spell and then ask the deity the following:

"For the next dungeon I am about to go to, what best describes the enemies by selecting a word from this card?"

Yum = Most enemies have poor saves in all categories and low AC.
Chum = Most enemies have poor fortitude saves, but high defenses in other areas.
Roar = Most enemies have poor fortitude saves and low AC, but other defenses are high.
Kick = Most enemies have poor reflex saves but other high defenses.
Cat = Most enemies have poor reflexes saves and low AC, but other defenses are high.
Dum = Most enemies have poor will saves but other high defenses.
Kiyah = Most enemies have poor will saves and low AC, but other defenses are high.
Lala = Most enemies have poor fortitude and reflex saves, but other defenses are high.
Chuck = Most enemies have poor fortitude and reflex saves, AC is low, but other defenses are high
Mary = Most enemies have poor fortitude and will saves, but other defenses are high.
Bob = Most enemies have poor fortitude and will saves, AC is low, but other defenses are high.
Sue = Most enemies have poor will and reflex saves, but other defenses are high.
Moe = Most enemies have poor will and reflex saves, AC is low, but other defenses are high.
Hank = Most enemies have poor saves, but other high defenses.
Eugene = Most enemies have great saves, but low AC.