Author Topic: What's wrong with the Soulknife?  (Read 4377 times)

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Endarire

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What's wrong with the Soulknife?
« on: November 05, 2009, 09:41:00 PM »
One of my players insists on being one- no multiclassing!- and despite my advising he go Swordsage for a similar concept, he refuses.  I don't want him getting outclassed by the group's Conjurer, Artificer, Druid, or future Ruby Knight Vindicator (currently a Cleric/Crusader).
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

Sinfire Titan

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Re: What's wrong with the Soulknife?
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2009, 10:07:14 PM »
BAB, poor enhancment selection/progression for starters.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

Bauglir

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Re: What's wrong with the Soulknife?
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2009, 11:26:28 PM »
PsyWar with the Alternate Class Feature that lets them make their own weapon?

I mean, to expand on what Sinfire said, they've got class skills that indicate a stealth focus, but no stealth-related class abilities and not enough skill points. They've got a solid hit die, but they're shackled to meleeing without heavy armor, which necessitates Dex and Weapon Finesse and increases MAD, which mixes poorly with their Medium BAB. Plus they're stuck with a Short Sword, barring extra feat expenditure, so they don't get a useful Power Attack. They don't have to pay for a weapon with gold, but they pay for it with class features and they get improvements way more slowly than the game anticipates; my Soulknife fix makes them stronger by taking away the free enhancement bonuses and making them pay for it themselves, at the normal rate. One of their major class features, Psychic Strike, requires a move action, so they lose mobility and only get one attack/round if they want to use it more than once per combat. Bladewind is just Whirlwind Attack, which isn't good to begin with. Knife To the Soul kicks a fair bit of ass, though. But really, that's a lot of work for one nice class feature in a giant pile of suck.

EDIT: Combined with the Shadow template, you might be able to pull something salvageable out of it, but that's because that template is pretty awesome for LA +2 and more or less supplies the entire Stealth side that the Soulknife needs. I did this once, but this was when my party (and most importantly, DM) was low on optimization-fu and there were still occasions when I felt useless (damn you, Reverse Gravity!). I mean, most of us thought the Tome of Battle was broken back then. So take that suggestion with a grain of salt.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 11:28:48 PM by Bauglir »
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: What's wrong with the Soulknife?
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2009, 11:39:16 PM »
Make up a feat that lets it "stack" with rogue levels for sneak attack, and it might be tolerable (Ascetic Jedi? :P ). Use the online boosts to it, also. Of course, that would involve multiclassing...
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Bauglir

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Re: What's wrong with the Soulknife?
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2009, 11:42:30 PM »
Quote
(Ascetic Jedi? :P )

JUSTBECAUSEITISGLOWYDOESNOTMAKEITALIGHTSABER [/nerdrage]

[spoiler]I'm kidding, of course, it's a MUCH better way of modeling a lightsaber than Brilliant Energy :P[/spoiler]
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

Endarire

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Re: What's wrong with the Soulknife?
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2009, 03:24:48 PM »
B, where's your Soulknife fix?
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

Bauglir

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Re: What's wrong with the Soulknife?
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2009, 03:53:48 PM »
Oh, right, I forgot to do a shameless plug.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

awaken DM golem

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Re: What's wrong with the Soulknife?
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2009, 05:59:30 PM »

One of my players insists on being one- no multiclassing!- and despite my advising he go Swordsage for a similar concept, he refuses.

**

I don't want him getting outclassed by the group's Conjurer, Artificer, Druid, or future Ruby Knight Vindicator (currently a Cleric/Crusader).

Let's suppose the guy has no idea what the CO-board comes up with, and has no access to this thread.
Fake Frontliner who really is a Consort / Meat Shield.
The Conjurations get beat or wink out on occasion.
The Arty can't be a Self Buffer + other stuff.
The Druid can't be at the front all alone, and his war puppy needs treats to keep fighting.
The Cleric can't help himself and not go off healing in the middle of combat every now and then.
Where's the Soulknife?
Kinda in the middle, "sneaking" around and picking his spots.
The Conj cries a southern gentlelady-ish Hay-yelp Mei, but only to the Soulknife.

I'd slap a little Lock on it, and an el-cheapo recharge.
And then there's carnivore.
The gods smile on their favorite pets, don't they ?

Paradox

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Re: What's wrong with the Soulknife?
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2009, 08:57:00 AM »
Let's suppose the guy has no idea what the CO-board comes up with, and has no access to this thread.
Fake Frontliner who really is a Consort / Meat Shield.
The Conjurations get beat or wink out on occasion.
The Arty can't be a Self Buffer + other stuff.
The Druid can't be at the front all alone, and his war puppy needs treats to keep fighting.
The Cleric can't help himself and not go off healing in the middle of combat every now and then.
Where's the Soulknife?
Kinda in the middle, "sneaking" around and picking his spots.
The Conj cries a southern gentlelady-ish Hay-yelp Mei, but only to the Soulknife.

I'd slap a little Lock on it, and an el-cheapo recharge.
And then there's carnivore.
The gods smile on their favorite pets, don't they ?

An enigma wrapped in a puzzle wrapped in a mystery... :scared

A soulknife kinda gets better and multiclass friendly if you allow that dragon feat to shape the mind blade into more esoteric shapes, specifically unarmed strike.   

awaken DM golem

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Re: What's wrong with the Soulknife?
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2009, 05:51:54 PM »
Paradox - I was going by the 1st post, as to the party composition.

Conjure might have a Conj boo boo happen, that's the moment he needs help.

Arty is the Trapfinder, and just about anything else ... so specifically don't make the Arty do what a Soulknife "can" do.
Buff Arty buffs himself 1st, party second. Don't buff self like what the Soulknife wants to do.

Druid might wanna NOT be a BSF, goes to cast an I Love Plants spell, and maybe the Wolf Tripper needs to go howl for a round or two.
And Cleric = Codzilla.
What do they need a Soulknife for?
Comic relief or fill in the very small blanks ??

" Fake Frontliner who really is a Consort / Meat Shield. I'd slap a little Lock on it, and an el-cheapo recharge.
And then there's carnivore (this is a hint to good builds / always). The gods smile on their favorite pets, don't they "
Gods as in Tier 1s plus a Soulknife Mascot.

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Let's say : Soulknife 9 / Ardent 1 / Thrallherd 10 and stick the feats in that pump the Soulknife Blade,
recharge set-up, and look ... more Tier 1s for the Thralls. Maybe Lock 3.0 (-lite because you're down 2 or 3 levels) would be a good Thrall.
That might work too.

Anklebite

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Re: What's wrong with the Soulknife?
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2009, 12:57:19 AM »
heres a quick homebrew fix for ya:

-full BAB
-one half of soulknife class levels added as a bonus on mindblade damage.  If this isn't enough, make it full class level.  a quick and easy(like ur mom) way to make it playable for the player in question. the other players probably won't gripe, as he just went from worthless to useful.  if you feel like he needs more stuff, add a mental char of your choice to AC and saves.
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Pteryx

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Re: What's wrong with the Soulknife?
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2009, 05:05:39 PM »
The soulknife fix I favor is unfortunately a victim of the WotC archive changes...  :banghead  I do know it was oriented towards enhancing the stealthy side over the combative side, though, and included lots of feats and 6 skill points/level.  I'd personally say to choose whether you're making the soulknife more combat-oriented or more oriented towards skill and stealth.  (Between the monk calling for the former IMO, there already being a Psychic Warrior, and the soulknife having originally been a prestige class for psionic assassins in 3.0, I'm inclined to favor its stealthy side.)

Even WotC recognizes that the soulknife is underpowered, and has its own (conservative) ideas about things to try -- namely, replacing Wild Talent with Hidden Talent and the ability to take Hidden Talent as a feat multiple times if desired (apparently a "common house rule" in the circles they travel) and replacing Psychic Strike with bonus feats "designed for soulknives... or any feat that your mind blade can benefit from".  Ironically, these are in the same article that introduces the "soulbound weapon" psychic warrior, which is commonly considered to make the soulknife obsolete: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a  They've also given the soulknife a lot of mechanical support, especially in the form of creating items that allow it to overcome the DR of different materials; perhaps you could "pull a monk", as it were, and just put that stuff into their class ability list at various levels.  -- Pteryx

Viletta Vadim

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Re: What's wrong with the Soulknife?
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2009, 09:13:20 PM »
As for what's fundamentally wrong with it?  The Soulknife's main class feature is "has a weapon."  And not even a particularly good weapon.  In fact, most of their friends will have better weapons alongside actual abilities.  Have you considered offering the actual soul weapon as, like, a feat or something?

Operation Shoestring

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Re: What's wrong with the Soulknife?
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2009, 12:31:30 AM »
As for what's fundamentally wrong with it?  The Soulknife's main class feature is "has a weapon."  And not even a particularly good weapon.  In fact, most of their friends will have better weapons alongside actual abilities.  Have you considered offering the actual soul weapon as, like, a feat or something?

As a note, most said friends will have weapons that are +1, Feature X, Feature Y, Feature Z.  And just have the wizard buff it to +3, Feature X, Feature Y, Feature Z.  Whereas the Soulknife can only get +2 Feature X, Feature Y on his mindblade.

Also, the Soulbound Weapon ACF for Psychic warriors does it better than soulknife, and makes you a *real* Psionic character.

Pteryx

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Re: What's wrong with the Soulknife?
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2009, 03:15:26 AM »