Author Topic: Heal the world  (Read 12744 times)

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Alastar

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Heal the world
« on: November 05, 2009, 08:42:03 PM »
PREMISE

Through the ''dumbass america'' and ''HDI placings'' thread, i have come into ideological confrontation on many different topics with some posters here on these boards (Kari, johanixx and wotmania to name a few).  Even though, this crowd being made of people with strong ideas and willing to defend those ideas, this has sometimes degenerated, I find that I have learned a lot by exchanging those points of view, and it has given me great insight into the mindset of other people.  Coming from a left leaning society, I don't often have the chance to argue about some things, like health care, it's just a given here, and it's been enlightening to learn the other point of vie.

I sincerely think that NO ONE who participated in these debates was ''flaming'' ''trolling'' or is in any way, shape or form ''mentally challenged'' or ''retarded''.  I believe we are all intelligent people with though out viewpoints, and that when those views clash, tempers can flare, but we can still keep the other in esteem after the debate.

PROPOSITION

I propose that each one of us, in no particular order, propose a world spanning problem, or culture spanning problem, or just, simply put, a problem that affects a lot of people, and then propose a solution.  Ideally a solution that could be applied without too much hassle, and that does not involve the term ''kill the dumbasses'' or ''use dynamite'', you get my point ;).   This is done as a tough exercice, and a debating exercice, we put forth our solution, and then others can debate weither or not it would be feasible, if not why, if it could, then why.


1st Problem

Set forth by yours truly:  OBESITY

Solution:   Higher food production government standards and supervision, mandatory weekly group exercices in pre-determined public areas.  Anyone found guilty of not exercising would be fined. ALTERNATIVELY Punch cards, that you turn in every month, and that show you trained every week could be used to get some sort of tax discount, or other small benefit.

Why I think this would work:  1 hour of exercice at least once a week is certainly beneficial, and while it won't counter bad feeding habits, excessive eating, or the desire to procrastinate, it would certainly stop morbede obesity, as the more you have weight, the more a small amount of exercice makes you lose (more energy needed to move around).  Better food enforcement laws would be there to make sure that food is edible, and is not essentially fat on a stick  (that would be hard to do, but i'm sure someone smarter than me could figure out some way to do this)

Debate, or if you all agree with me, start another topic.

altpersona

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Re: Heal the world
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2009, 09:14:16 PM »
your proposed solution is unreasonable. i'll go as far as to call it fanciful.

dumbass america has a right to obesity. its a fundamental part of our establishment. 'life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness'.

its feasible to install strict regulation in the mass production of food products, such as limits on servings per container and dietary contents per severing.

wont happen, but an existing legal mechanism exists.

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Tshern

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Re: Heal the world
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2009, 10:12:23 PM »
I sincerely think that NO ONE who participated in these debates was ''flaming'' ''trolling'' or is in any way, shape or form ''mentally challenged'' or ''retarded''. 
So I was dropped.

Anyway, are we allowed to raise questions while another discussion is still going on?

If we are, here is mine: Why is voting so rigged in the USA?

Chuck Hagel who was the head of the company (ES&S) who made the voting machines won the elections in Nebraska. The Florida scandal and Gore does nothing just playing the loser of the game while doing nothing to change the situation. Maybe he was allergic to black people or something. How a company that makes ATMs that give out a paper trail cannot give a similar trail in voting machines? Why is it that the leader of the free world is the leading fascist nation in the entire world?

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Johannixx

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Re: Heal the world
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2009, 10:31:12 PM »
When you have a thread called 'dumbass america', you'd think it would be a reasonable and foreseeable outcome to have annoyed Americans arguing with those putting forth such an opinion ;)

That said, I think government-mandated exercise is both unworkable, and horrible.  It's one thing for a government to prohibit actions that hurt others (drunk driving, murder, robbery, etc), but it's quite another to have government start making personal decisions about one's own health.  Some people may not want to be fitness buffs.  Some people may enjoy a sedentary lifestyle.  Why on earth should they be prevented from the pursuit of their own form of happiness, as long as such happiness doesn't directly harm others?  This is one of many reasons so many Americans are leery of government-run health care.  Not only is it terrifying to think of the people who brought you the Motor Vehicle Department in charge of your health care, but it's also a perfect way for government bureaucrats to start justifying more invasions of personal privacy and limitations on personal freedom in the name of the 'greater good'.

Now that we've gotten through the philosophical objections, let's look at the practical aspects.  When you were in grade school, and you had mandatory gym class, did everyone get in shape?  No.  The fat kids stayed fat, because they never wanted to exercise in the first place.  You can't make people change their opinions.  You can persuade them to do so, but if you force them, they'll drag their feet and slack off, doing the least amount possible. 

I wear my seatbelt.  I don't smoke.  I wear a helmet when on motorbikes.  But I don't believe in laws that mandate such precautions for consenting adults.  If you want to kill yourself, that's your right as a free human being, as long as you don't take anyone else out with you.  Granted, there are grey areas, such as vaccinations, where there is ample room for debate.  I'd love to see the tinfoil-hat, Jenny McCarthy crowd educated out of their anti-vaccine idiocy, for instance.

Bauglir

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Re: Heal the world
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2009, 10:53:44 PM »
My God, you've created a situation where I agree with Johannixx. That's twice that's happened. I'm afraid I can only echo most of what he said, although I don't see the connection between mandatory exercise programs and universal health care, as health care's just an option and you could totally refuse to go to a doctor if your arm fell off (I wouldn't, but I could). People who want to risk killing yourselves, go ahead as long as others aren't put at risk. So refusing to wear a helmet's fine, although I could totally understand a system where such a law is default but you can pay a onetime 20 dollar fee to bypass it (to pay for the cleanup, you see). Smoking, though, second-hand has an effect worth caring about so I'm gonna have to say I agree with restricting certain areas, and a case could be made for a total ban (I mean, as long as we're banning marijuana we might as well ban something worth banning). Vaccinations are grey, but this is one of the rare cases where I do come down (very slightly) on the side of mandatory vaccination because that actually DOES have a significant impact on others.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

wotmaniac

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Re: Heal the world
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2009, 11:14:04 PM »
I sincerely think that NO ONE who participated in these debates was ''flaming'' ''trolling'' or is in any way, shape or form ''mentally challenged'' or ''retarded''. 
So I was dropped.

Anyway, are we allowed to raise questions while another discussion is still going on?

If we are, here is mine: Why is voting so rigged in the USA?

Chuck Hagel who was the head of the company (ES&S) who made the voting machines won the elections in Nebraska. The Florida scandal and Gore does nothing just playing the loser of the game while doing nothing to change the situation. Maybe he was allergic to black people or something. How a company that makes ATMs that give out a paper trail cannot give a similar trail in voting machines? Why is it that the leader of the free world is the leading fascist nation in the entire world?
This kind of hyperbole pisses me off.  Could you possibly try to be any more of a troll.  You are taking the reporting of the rare anomaly, and put forward the assumption that this is the norm.  You usually pretend to be much more intelligent than that.
Besides, your country isn't exactly all roses and sunshine.  I've seen some things that depict Norway as being nothing but a bunch of church-burning demonists.  I'm surprised that it hasn't just turned in to a gaping suck-hole to Hell.

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

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wotmaniac

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Re: Heal the world
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2009, 11:21:42 PM »
As to the OP:
Wow -- I'm impressed.  Cudos to you.

The issue is personal liberty -- true personal liberty.  A great many Americans are already uber-pissed that our existing personal liberties are being eroded as they are -- for someone to suggest any further gov't intrusion simply sets us off the deep-end.
I guess to truly understand what we're supposed to stand for, and the founding philosophies and principles (in which many of us still believe), you have to read the Federalist Papers -- they lay things out much more eloquently and convincingly than I ever could.

There is also the concept of "a government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have" (a quote which has been attributed to different people over the years, but is oh-so true).
« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 11:25:31 PM by wotmaniac »

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

altpersona

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Re: Heal the world
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2009, 11:45:36 PM »
voting is 'so' rigged because 'if you aint cheati'n you aint try'n'

on the most basic level all votes are manipulated. the scale varies. but 'influence' and especially 'undo influence' are the basis for the system.
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CountArioch

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Re: Heal the world
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2009, 12:16:45 AM »

Besides, your country isn't exactly all roses and sunshine.  I've seen some things that depict Norway as being nothing but a bunch of church-burning demonists.  I'm surprised that it hasn't just turned in to a gaping suck-hole to Hell.

I should tell you why that's hilarious, but I don't have a high enough opinion of you to do so.  Although I agree with your sig.  Completely. 

Proposal:  Needless aggression.

Solution:  Government-funded whores available to relieve sexual tension.  Have them in both genders.  And have it 100% confidential.  Seriously, I think about 30% of the stupid things I've done have been in the name of poon-tang.  If it was freely available, it would make me a lot less irritable.
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She has come to steal your sanity with just one glance

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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Heal the world
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2009, 12:19:16 AM »
Proposal:  Needless aggression.

Solution:  Government-funded whores available to relieve sexual tension.  Have them in both genders.  And have it 100% confidential.  Seriously, I think about 30% of the stupid things I've done have been in the name of poon-tang.  If it was freely available, it would make me a lot less irritable.
:lmao I think I could agree, but I don't think they'd need to be government funded. I have no doubt that the "market" would sort itself out if it was just legalized.  ;)
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

wotmaniac

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Re: Heal the world
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2009, 12:34:07 AM »

Besides, your country isn't exactly all roses and sunshine.  I've seen some things that depict Norway as being nothing but a bunch of church-burning demonists.  I'm surprised that it hasn't just turned in to a gaping suck-hole to Hell.

I should tell you why that's hilarious, but I don't have a high enough opinion of you to do so. 
Well, instead of trying to insult me -- how about you either just say it, or keep your fingers off the keyboard.


Proposal:  Needless aggression.

Solution:  Government-funded whores available to relieve sexual tension.  Have them in both genders.  And have it 100% confidential.  Seriously, I think about 30% of the stupid things I've done have been in the name of poon-tang.  If it was freely available, it would make me a lot less irritable.
:lmao I think I could agree, but I don't think they'd need to be government funded. I have no doubt that the "market" would sort itself out if it was just legalized.  ;)
:cheers

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

Johannixx

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Re: Heal the world
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2009, 01:12:49 AM »
Throughout history, the definition of 'fascist' seems to be 'government that stops me from doing what I want' rather than 'government that proscribes basic human freedoms'.  I've heard people complaining that banning gay marriage is fascist (I agree), but banning guns is sound public policy (I disagree).  I've heard exactly the opposite as well from some conservatives, who think standing up for 2nd Amendment rights is their God-given duty, but trample all over an individual's right to love and commit to another consenting adult because it's against their religion (which shouldn't matter one whit when defining public policy).

Fascist states come about when government is allowed to act on its intrinsic notion that it is the sole arbiter of the 'common good', regardless of what that 'common good' might be, and that the state is more important than the individual in all cases.  Hitler and Stalin may have been far right and far left, respectively, but they were both fascist dictators.  The October Revolution didn't change the level of oppression in Russia, it merely played musical chairs with the participants.

The problem has always been how to reconcile individual rights with individual responsibilities to society.  Some decisions are easy, such as a person's right to drink while driving being overridden by everyone else's right to drive without being wrecked into by his drunk ass.  Some, like the aforementioned vaccination issue, are harder to divine.  Personally, I try to lean towards the individual's right, as long as it is not inherently corrosive to others' rights.  Bauglir's issue of second-hand smoke, for example, is an instance where nuance is necessary.  Killing yourself by smoking should be legal.  Killing others with second-hand smoke should not be.  Thus, I'm fine with restaurants imposing their own smoking bans, and those bans having the force of law.  If you want to smoke in a restaurant, find one that allows it.  If you don't, go to a non-smoking establishment and enjoy clean air.  This lets people decide for themselves what they want to endure and inflict on themselves, without impinging on other people's right to cleaner air.

Compounding this basic quandary is the fact that we have been increasingly removing personal responsibility from society, to the point that we couldn't give it all back right away and expect anything short of anarchy.  Society has to be eased back into responsible actions, a little at a time, in order to build up the social mores that make some laws superfluous.  It won't happen overnight.  Hell, even with concerted effort, it probably won't happen in our lifetimes.  But reversing the direction is important to our future as a society, possibly more so than any other issue we face.  We need to regain the delicate balance of rights versus responsibilities, and truly become free people once again.

Alastar

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Re: Heal the world
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2009, 01:32:02 AM »
Stalin was a totalitarian dictator, but he was not fascist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascist


So far, from what I have seen of extreme personnal rights partisans, you guys are fighting for the right to illness, being fat, and the right to shoot each other in the face, cause if you shoot him in the leg he can sue you.

If getting rid of those things for all of the people in my country means giving up a bit of my right to screw myself over, than so be it.

Even in a responsable society, you will need strong enforcement of laws, and detailed legislation, over and over again, because somewhere, somehow, there's always going to be one guy who says FUCK YOU  :fo :fo :fo to everything and tries to abuse lack of legislation.  We're optimisers, we plan for that guy!!!

Johannixx

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Re: Heal the world
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2009, 10:50:45 AM »
Stalin was a totalitarian dictator, but he was not fascist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascist


So far, from what I have seen of extreme personnal rights partisans, you guys are fighting for the right to illness, being fat, and the right to shoot each other in the face, cause if you shoot him in the leg he can sue you.

If getting rid of those things for all of the people in my country means giving up a bit of my right to screw myself over, than so be it.

Even in a responsable society, you will need strong enforcement of laws, and detailed legislation, over and over again, because somewhere, somehow, there's always going to be one guy who says FUCK YOU  :fo :fo :fo to everything and tries to abuse lack of legislation.  We're optimisers, we plan for that guy!!!

That one guy will abuse anything, regardless of legislation.  It's illegal to kill people without a good reason (i.e. self-defense), yet people do it all the time, for reasons that range from the predictable to the truly bizarre.  It's illegal to possess narcotics, but they're plentiful and easily acquired by high school kids.  Laws are of limited effectiveness at best, without an effective mechanism of enforcement.  To enforce all of the laws you're asking for, you'd have to have half the population acting as a police force, walking beside the other half 24/7.

Preventing people from doing things that could harm themselves only infantilizes them.  People have to learn how to live, and if you never let them make mistakes, they'll never learn from them.  So you stay out of my business, I'll stay out of yours, and we'll both be happier in the end :)

archangel.arcanis

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Re: Heal the world
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2009, 11:42:39 AM »
Stalin was a totalitarian dictator, but he was not fascist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascist


So far, from what I have seen of extreme personnal rights partisans, you guys are fighting for the right to illness, being fat, and the right to shoot each other in the face, cause if you shoot him in the leg he can sue you.

If getting rid of those things for all of the people in my country means giving up a bit of my right to screw myself over, than so be it.

Even in a responsable society, you will need strong enforcement of laws, and detailed legislation, over and over again, because somewhere, somehow, there's always going to be one guy who says FUCK YOU  :fo :fo :fo to everything and tries to abuse lack of legislation.  We're optimisers, we plan for that guy!!!

The difference between what you were saying and what he was is choice. You would impose your own beliefs on another person via the government for their own good. Well what if they were to do the same thing with a belief you were whole heatedly against.
An intentionally insane example: How about a legislator passing a law requiring everyone go to Religions X's church 1 hour a day every day and banning all other churches. Now this is for the moral well being of the country so we must do it or people will die due to making bad moral decisions.
How would that be any different than what you were proposing? Both are fundamentally for the greater good and could save lives. They also both would piss off about 50% of the country, the other 50% don't pay enough attention to even know what is going on anyway.

Now to the theme of this thread:
Global Warming: The problem with global warming is that it is treated as a religion. There is no debate or intellectual discussion on the topic, either you believe it and shout down any opposition or you oppose it and go to extremes to prove it wrong.
Solution: Essentially make a group for and against it and let them debate on a live web cast free to the world.(also archive the web cast and any resources they may use for people who miss it or want to evaluate the data themselves) Force both sides to provide data to backup what they say. Keep it ordered and structured so it doesn't become a melee or people shouting "your killing the planet"
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Heal the world
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2009, 11:54:40 AM »
Global Warming: The problem with global warming is that it is treated as a religion. There is no debate or intellectual discussion on the topic, either you believe it and shout down any opposition or you oppose it and go to extremes to prove it wrong.
Bullshit.

Quote
Solution: Essentially make a group for and against it and let them debate on a live web cast free to the world.(also archive the web cast and any resources they may use for people who miss it or want to evaluate the data themselves) Force both sides to provide data to backup what they say. Keep it ordered and structured so it doesn't become a melee or people shouting "your killing the planet"
There are places where exactly that is done (the debate part). They're called refereed scientific journals. Although I guess some kind of intentionally public forum like a webcast might help to popularize what scientifically educated people already know, I'm sure it would get totally swamped by ignorant people who do see it as some kind of ideological or religious debate. If you tried to limit who could participate based on whether they actually knew WTF they were talking about, the idiots who don't but have strong ill-informed opinions would just declare the whole thing a sham.

Also, it is impossible to prove causality for something that is just being observed in nature. We just have to look at trends, figure out how they are correlated, and draw conclusions. That will never be enough for some people, but that's as good as it gets with this kind of science. We don't have a couple of spare planets where we can test our hypotheses about carbon emissions directly causing global warming, and I'm sure nothing short of that would convince the nay-sayers.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2009, 11:57:41 AM by PhaedrusXY »
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

archangel.arcanis

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Re: Heal the world
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2009, 12:11:56 PM »
How about I amend it to say "public debate". Since for the most part all the general public ever sees is Al Gore and Rush Limbaugh talking about it, depending on which side they want to believe.

Personally i think there is some evidence to support both claims but not nearly enough to support the world wide sense of panic (i don't think panic is quite the right word i want but it will suffice for now). The other problem is the way people who do believe in it are going about trying to fix it. Just based on the assumptions required for Global Warming to be correct then many of the solutions are get rich quick plans. Carbon credits are a crock of shit, if CO2 is the problem scale it down rather than letting people buy it off. GW Treaties that the worst offenders don't have to abide by don't do any good. If the US bans certain practices but China and India don't then all the companies will just move there and produce even more pollution, not just GW causing ones, and that pollution is still a global problem we just made the epicenter a different location.
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Alastar

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Re: Heal the world
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2009, 12:26:29 PM »
Another issue is this:

Is global warming all that bad?

A rise in seawater levels would surely be alarming, specially to me, since I live on an island!  but would it really be all that bad?  We are a species who thrives on warm climates, but can adapt to cold ones, if our cold climates became a bit warmer, we'd still be able to live decently, no?

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Heal the world
« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2009, 12:38:18 PM »
Personally i think there is some evidence to support both claims
Ok, I'll bite. What evidence is there to claim that the climate isn't warming up? Let's have the debate, right here. This is a public forum. You obviously seem to be taking the side of "it isn't really a problem". So lets see your evidence. I think Al Gore's video and the pictures of the ice at the north pole being totally gone this summer are evidence enough for my side for the moment.

Another issue is this:

Is global warming all that bad?

A rise in seawater levels would surely be alarming, specially to me, since I live on an island!  but would it really be all that bad?  We are a species who thrives on warm climates, but can adapt to cold ones, if our cold climates became a bit warmer, we'd still be able to live decently, no?
This is an interesting question. I think we certainly don't know how bad it will be. But at the same time, we can estimate that it will certainly change a lot of things like weather patterns, increased desertification, loss of habitats, extinctions, etc. This is based on archaeological records of what happened during similar climate changes in the past. So if we know what we are doing is causing it or at least making it worse, and we know it will likely be bad but don't know exactly how bad, why not try to do everything we can to stop making it worse?

That's like not quitting smoking because you're not sure if it will give you lung cancer or not. I mean hell there are people who smoke their whole lives and never get it. Smoking just increases the statistical possibility of you getting it. You might get lucky, right?
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Alastar

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Re: Heal the world
« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2009, 01:07:27 PM »
But then, how accurate are the archeological findings??

I mean, How is more water going to cause more deserts?  Sure higher heat will do that in some places.  But in most temperate climates (like northern U.S.A, Canada, Europe, Chili, Southern Africa, Australia)  A rise in temperature means some flora changes, that's pretty much it...  We wouldn't be that much affected, it would mainly be the third world countries.

Doesn't mean I endorse it!! I think it would DEFINITELY be a plus if we could finally use the countless water and electric car prototypes that have been made and stop cattering to oil companies whims, and diminuting our pollutive emissions would certainly be several steps in the right direction!

I just don't think it will be CATASTROPHIC, mostly ''bad for some people, good for others''

No matter how much I love this country... sometimes the snow gets on my nerves...

I'm also warry of all the people shouting armagedon in global warming, last time everyone was agreeing on something, it was to sterilise the gays, sick, deviant and mentally challenged.  Seemed like a good idea at the time... right now with retrospective?  Seems horrible.

Armagedon shouting is usually not a good way to spread the message.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2009, 01:09:37 PM by Alastar »