Author Topic: 3.5 Rebuild Poll Part 27  (Read 2225 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

bhu

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 6783
  • Convincing the rich whale fat enemas are healthy
3.5 Rebuild Poll Part 27
« on: November 05, 2009, 08:58:40 AM »
If you were rebuilding 3.5, would you keep critical hits?

veekie

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 9034
  • WARNING: Homing Miko
Re: 3.5 Rebuild Poll Part 27
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2009, 10:30:43 AM »
I believe critical hits should be a factor of skill, beating the defense/AC/save by 5+ being a critical hit, and in addition, allowing spells/powers, whatevers to crit, regardless of whether saves or defenses are used. A 'regular' effect and a critical one.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

j0lt

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1317
  • Browncoat
Re: 3.5 Rebuild Poll Part 27
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2009, 10:51:04 AM »
Changing the crit mechanic to be more skill-based might be interesting.  Perhaps allow the weapon's threat range to be determined or modified by something like Dex?
PbP Games
The Artifact (prologue) as Dr. Henry Loder, Mayan archaeologist


InnaBinder

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1610
  • OnnaTable
    • Okay - - Your Turn: Monte Cook's Message Board
Re: 3.5 Rebuild Poll Part 27
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2009, 11:04:28 AM »
Change crits in some way was my vote, but I'm not sure I've come up with a workable alternative yet.  Off the top of my head, I might lump the 20/x and the 19-20/x crits together, shifting 18-20 to 19-20, and have a crit deal max normal damage + STR + weapon's weight, with spells and the like instead using INT + spell level to add to the damage instead.
Winning an argument on the internet is like winning in the Special Olympics.  You won, but you're still retarded.

I made a Handbook!?

RobbyPants

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 7139
Re: 3.5 Rebuild Poll Part 27
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2009, 11:11:01 AM »
I'd want to change them.  Assuming HP work the same, I actually like 4.0's model of +[W] damage.  In 3x, you could get huge numbers by multiplying static modifiers.  It was fun to do, but you would get really unpredictable results in combat, which statistically favor the monsters.

As a general rule, when running games, I don't throw the PCs up against monsters with x3 or x4 crit weapons until level four or so.  Before then, they just don't have the HP to weather that sort of attack, so the monster is effectively running around with an almost 5% save-or-die in their hands.  I get the impression this is why 3.5 changed the default weapon for orcs in the Monster Manual from a greataxe to a falchion.  Figuring them as a CR 1/2 monster, when you think about how many of them you might fight in the first two levels, statistically speaking, you're almost certain to have a PC drop in one hit without DM fudging.  That just seems cruel to me.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Midnight_v

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2660
  • Dulce et decorum est pro alea mori.
Re: 3.5 Rebuild Poll Part 27
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2009, 11:16:06 AM »
I don't think there was anything wrong with crits actually...
Which you know in a "rebuild" you want to remove the things that are wrong.
If you force a change then it'd have to be a huge improvement over what you've been using.
Quote
I believe critical hits should be a factor of skill, beating the AC or Save by 5+ being a critical hit, and in addition, allowing spells/powers, whatevers to crit  
Thats not good. So... basically if a monster is already overwhemingly able to an AC the hits do x2+ damage as well? I'm against things that help you win MORE.
  The dice rolling method is cool. Some of the game should be "luck"
Quote
and in addition, allowing spells/powers, whatevers to crit
They already do... if they require a roll.
It does make me wonder what supposed to be represented there...
Critical Acid fog... comes to mind. So we're going to make BFC MORE powerful in ways. There's an before we get out of the box problem with that .
\\\"Disentegrate.\\\" \\\"Gust of wind.\\\" \\\"Now Can we PLEASE resume saving the world?\\\"

RobbyPants

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 7139
Re: 3.5 Rebuild Poll Part 27
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2009, 12:16:07 PM »
 The dice rolling method is cool. Some of the game should be "luck"
I agree with this to a point.  My big problem with crits is that a low level character lacks the survivability to sustain one without dying, particularly with a x3 or x4 weapon.  So, it's not that they could die in the fight that bothers me, but more that they could die in one hit before they get a chance to act.

DM: Okay guys.  Roll initiative.

Player 1: I rolled a 9.

*other players roll*

DM: Okay, the orcs are going on 18.  One of the orcs attacks you, Player 1.

*Rolls a 20.  Confirms with an 18.  Rolls average damage of 6+6+7+12.

DM: Okay, you take 31 damage.  How many HP did you have?

Player 1: ... uh, 12...

DM: So you're at -19 HP.  Roll up a new guy.


To me, that isn't fun.  And something to remember regarding "luck":  The PCs are around for the entire campaign.  The monsters are around for one fight.  So, saying that it's okay to just die if the other guy rolls a 20 followed by a high number sucks for the players.  They have to endure far more of those attacks than any given monster.  After 30 to 50 attacks, they're statistically very likely to suffer a confirmed crit on a natural 20.  If that crit can one-shot them, it gets pretty tough for characters to survive for more than 50 attacks without DM fiat.  Hopefully they gained enough levels by that point to live through it!
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

vermithrx

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 64
    • Email
Re: 3.5 Rebuild Poll Part 27
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2009, 12:26:38 PM »
Quote
and in addition, allowing spells/powers, whatevers to crit
They already do... if they require a roll.
It does make me wonder what supposed to be represented there...
Critical Acid fog... comes to mind. So we're going to make BFC MORE powerful in ways. There's an before we get out of the box problem with that.
That depends entirely on how the status effects end up working. If a given type of debuff can have variable levels of effect, a crit aught to bump it up one. (It's SUPER EFFECTIVE!) At the same time, I think all spells need to be rolled for in some fasion. Noone should be allowed to bypass the RNG.

Bauglir

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2346
  • TriOptimum
Re: 3.5 Rebuild Poll Part 27
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2009, 12:51:29 PM »
I'd say change crits. Personally, as a means of indicating damage to a vital area by chance, I think increased damage is a poor mechanic. I, myself, am thinking of changing it to 1d6 or 1d8 points (not sure which) of ability damage to a score of the attacker's choice. Increased threat range increases frequency, higher crit multipliers than x2 add additional dice.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

veekie

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 9034
  • WARNING: Homing Miko
Re: 3.5 Rebuild Poll Part 27
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2009, 01:06:02 PM »
Quote
and in addition, allowing spells/powers, whatevers to crit
They already do... if they require a roll.
It does make me wonder what supposed to be represented there...
Critical Acid fog... comes to mind. So we're going to make BFC MORE powerful in ways. There's an before we get out of the box problem with that.
That depends entirely on how the status effects end up working. If a given type of debuff can have variable levels of effect, a crit aught to bump it up one. (It's SUPER EFFECTIVE!) At the same time, I think all spells need to be rolled for in some fasion. Noone should be allowed to bypass the RNG.
Well, if you put a 'safe' effect for the regular impact(for acid fog, perhaps concealment + damage) and a 'critical' effect for the super effective(blinded for a round/several rounds(depending on frequency of attack roll/save) + more damage), when you fail the fort save by 5 or more, and just concealment(no damage) if you make the save. Replace save with defense for attack roll vs defense as desired.

Though it does show a perk of save vs defense, in that if this is a save, you can save every round to see which effect it hits for.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 01:07:44 PM by veekie »
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

vermithrx

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 64
    • Email
Re: 3.5 Rebuild Poll Part 27
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2009, 06:28:08 PM »
Well, if you put a 'safe' effect for the regular impact(for acid fog, perhaps concealment + damage) and a 'critical' effect for the super effective(blinded for a round/several rounds(depending on frequency of attack roll/save) + more damage), when you fail the fort save by 5 or more, and just concealment(no damage) if you make the save. Replace save with defense for attack roll vs defense as desired.

Though it does show a perk of save vs defense, in that if this is a save, you can save every round to see which effect it hits for.
Actually, I was thinking Acid Fog would require a casting check (1d20 + Int modifier + Caster Level + 1/2 other class levels) opposed by the target's save each round to determine how powerful the spell is. The caster would only roll once unless the spell requires concentration.

Say the spell automatically applies a base 10% miss chance due to concealment. On a success you deal damage and increase the target's miss chance by 10% for 1 round, +10% for every 5 you exceed the target's save (up to a maximum of 50%). On a natural 20 you add an extra 10% to the base concealment of the spell.

This makes the spell reward the caster for rolling well, on top of punishing the target for rolling poorly, and the combat more engaging since the players will hopefully be more invested in the outcome of their rolls.

And yeah, I'm definately more in favor of saves now than I was at the start of this polling process. :D

Aliment

  • That monkey with the orange ass cheeks
  • ****
  • Posts: 244
  • Illithid Zombies
Re: 3.5 Rebuild Poll Part 27
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2009, 10:01:38 PM »
I voted yes, but after seeing the comments I can understand some of the reprehension for them.  Maybe just double weapon damage?  As long as spells can't be multiplied then most of the damage is gone (Unless we're using Giant weapons).  So instead of that Great Axe doing 3x(1d12+3) (AVG: 28.5) it would do 3d12+3 (AVG: 21.5).  This makes Crits less deadly while leaving the joy of randomness (really the best moments in game are those crazy crit fumbles/hits).
True Sign of Player Paranoia:
Player:"I look out of the keep"
DM:"There are no visible armies"
Player:"Aw crap theres an Invisible army!"