Author Topic: What's a fair Swordsage recovery mechanic?  (Read 4283 times)

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Endarire

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What's a fair Swordsage recovery mechanic?
« on: November 02, 2009, 03:52:39 PM »
By default, a Swordsage can recover 1 (yes, 1!) maneuver (or all maneuvers with Adaptive Style) as a full-round action.  One round doing nothing is a long time to do nothing in combat.  I feel like a Swordsage should be able to use his maneuvers more often, but how do you feel about these options?

1: Recover all maneuvers as a full-round action.  Thus, being a Swordsage doesn't require Adaptive Style.
2: Recover 1 maneuver as a move action.  Compare this to a Warblade who can recover all his maneuvers by whacking things or a Crusader who just waits to recover his maneuvers.
3: Give Adaptive Style (perhaps instead of Weapon Focus) to all Swordsages at level 1.
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

bearsarebrown

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Re: What's a fair Swordsage recovery mechanic?
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2009, 03:58:20 PM »
If they get Adaptive Style as a bonus feat I would suggest it much deeper then level 1. Swordsage 1 is already SUCH a good dip, it should be... 4 or 5 imo.

Endarire

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Re: What's a fair Swordsage recovery mechanic?
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2009, 04:01:27 PM »
How'zbout Adaptive Style at Swordsage3?
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

bkdubs123

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Re: What's a fair Swordsage recovery mechanic?
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2009, 04:03:00 PM »
I've always felt that Adaptive Style should simply be their recovery method, and not be a feat.

archangel.arcanis

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Re: What's a fair Swordsage recovery mechanic?
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2009, 04:04:06 PM »
I agree that they need adaptive style and that if you will give it to them it needs to be beyond lvl 2.

One thing to consider is SS is already a solid class. It is the only one that can qualify for Mo9 without needing to dip in the others. It is also the closest thing to a decent ninja that d20 has put out, really do you consider the OA or CAd versions acceptable.
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Smokey_the_bear

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Re: What's a fair Swordsage recovery mechanic?
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2009, 04:18:19 PM »
IMO the ability to recover any 1 maneuver as a full-round action isn't ridiculous. Especially if you're in a group with multiple characters and it's a 5th or higher lvl maneuver that you're recovering and using every other round of combat. I mean, it's no different than a spell having a full-round casting time : /

snakeman830

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Re: What's a fair Swordsage recovery mechanic?
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2009, 04:21:39 PM »
Especially as Swordsages have more manuvers readied than any other class.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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Smokey_the_bear

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Re: What's a fair Swordsage recovery mechanic?
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2009, 04:24:50 PM »
Especially as Swordsages have more manuvers readied than any other class.
and then take instant(swift?) recovery for funsies. I forget the name of the feat

Endarire

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Re: What's a fair Swordsage recovery mechanic?
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2009, 04:26:53 PM »
Sudden Recovery.

My point about changing the recovery mechanic is that other classes get to do their thing while recovering maneuvers.  Swordsages stand to the side and 'meditate' for a round.
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

Smokey_the_bear

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Re: What's a fair Swordsage recovery mechanic?
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2009, 04:30:53 PM »
as stated above, it may be to balance out the fact that SS have access to significantly more manuevers/stances/schools than any of the other martial adept class. The warblade is primarily a fighter with flavor. It's number of M/S is very limited which is why it has a massive HD and has access to fighter specific feats.

Sooner

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Re: What's a fair Swordsage recovery mechanic?
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2009, 04:32:05 PM »
I wouldn't say that 1 maneuver is good I would say make it a class feature so that you regen

Level 1: Same as now except you only recover 2 of one type of maneuver

level 3: You take a Full Round Action and Recover 2 strikes, 2 counters, 2 boosts, and 1 stance

Level 9: You take a full round action and recover 3 strikes, 3 counters, 3 boosts, and 1 stance

Level 15: You take a full round action and recover 4 strikes, 4 counters, 4 boosts, and 2 stances

Adaptive Style now provides a reason to stay in the class without a destroying a dip

Smokey_the_bear

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Re: What's a fair Swordsage recovery mechanic?
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2009, 04:33:58 PM »
I wouldn't say that 1 maneuver is good I would say make it a class feature so that you regen

Level 1: Same as now except you only recover 2 of one type of maneuver

level 3: You take a Full Round Action and Recover 2 strikes, 2 counters, 2 boosts, and 1 stance

Level 9: You take a full round action and recover 3 strikes, 3 counters, 3 boosts, and 1 stance

Level 15: You take a full round action and recover 4 strikes, 4 counters, 4 boosts, and 2 stances

Adaptive Style now provides a reason to stay in the class without a destroying a dip
I wouldn't say good either. Just....reasonable XD

snakeman830

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Re: What's a fair Swordsage recovery mechanic?
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2009, 04:34:34 PM »
The reasoning behind that is that Swordsages have a lot that they can go through before they have to recover manuvers.  Even at level 1, initiating 2 manuvers/round (1 boost, 1 strike), Swordsages have 3 rounds before they're out of manuvers.  Warblades run out much sooner than that and Crusaders are still waiting for their final manuver (assuming they didn't take Extra Granted Manuver).  The fight is usually over at this point, so it rarely makes much of a difference if they take a full-round action to recover their manuvers or just wait for a few minutes and they're all back.

Note: Stances are never expended, so there's no need to recover them.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

Sooner

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Re: What's a fair Swordsage recovery mechanic?
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2009, 04:40:46 PM »
I wouldn't say good either. Just....reasonable XD

Or just make it so you regen one counter, boost, strike would be reasonable. I mean it would be weird to burn through your maneuvers 2 to 3 times as fast as you can recover them. It wouldn't be right if you expended 4 maneuvers in 2 turn (two strikes and two counters) and then have to spend 4 rounds to get back to back.

Smokey_the_bear

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Re: What's a fair Swordsage recovery mechanic?
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2009, 04:45:21 PM »
There's also no chance that you'll burn through all of them in a single encounter. If you do, you're relying on them too much. After combat drops you regain them all anyway. :)

bearsarebrown

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Re: What's a fair Swordsage recovery mechanic?
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2009, 04:46:41 PM »
Or just make it so you regen one counter, boost, strike would be reasonable. I mean it would be weird to burn through your maneuvers 2 to 3 times as fast as you can recover them. It wouldn't be right if you expended 4 maneuvers in 2 turn (two strikes and two counters) and then have to spend 4 rounds to get back to back.

Spellcasters take 8 hours to recover any amount of spell slots.

JaronK

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Re: What's a fair Swordsage recovery mechanic?
« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2009, 04:49:35 PM »
Swordsages were, among other things, meant to work as Ninjas... planning out the attack, hitting hard and fast, then withdrawing.  They're not supposed to be able to recover easily in combat.  They're actually an extremely solid class, capable of all sorts of tricks, but if you want endless combat manuevers then Crusader or Warblade is probably more your style.

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Cephid Arcanis

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Re: What's a fair Swordsage recovery mechanic?
« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2009, 10:58:11 PM »
If someone wants to play a full swordsage, then they won't mind waiting till level 4 to get adaptive style as a free feat. Sonds nice.

Don't give it to them in the first 1-3 levels if someone is making some sort of monster build with a sage 2 dip.

If you want more manuvers, then dip warblade 1 at level 9 for 4 extra ones including white raven and iron heart surge. (and the ability to swap your free weapon focus to any weapon.)
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Cephid Arcanis

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Re: What's a fair Swordsage recovery mechanic?
« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2009, 12:55:54 AM »
Another idea would to use Kalashtar as your race (for heaps of power points) and take the feat that lets you recover manuvers as a FREE ACTION by expending pp.
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telehax

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Re: What's a fair Swordsage recovery mechanic?
« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2009, 09:52:11 AM »
Idea: Allow more homebrew Martial Disciplines for teh cherrypicking. When every maneuver on the swordsage list is awesome, swordsages are unlikely to run out of good maneuvers.

Ditto the other two base classes. To some extent.