Author Topic: Is C.O. "White Hat" or "Black Hat" ??  (Read 9398 times)

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awaken DM golem

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Re: Is C.O. "White Hat" or "Black Hat" ??
« Reply #40 on: November 02, 2009, 08:28:40 PM »
heh ... I got weenie-filtered out of the 1st page, and filtered off this page until enough people posted.

I think Lords of Madness
deserves a mention, because it gives the option of having a Horror type approach of
die wimpy PCs die.
But how do you do that against experienced or CO players ?
In this case the DM isn't being Black Hat toward the PCs, so much as he (she?) is following acceptable rules
that allow being really mean and e-vul.
It still feels like roleplaying to me.
It doesn't feel like too gray hat, into black hat.

Tenebrous Apostate

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Re: Is C.O. "White Hat" or "Black Hat" ??
« Reply #41 on: November 03, 2009, 06:42:00 PM »
To me CO is gray to white hat. In a group were nearly every char is at least marginaly optimized there are more chances for the partys survival and if the CO is good enough it can merit higher level challenges (wich in turn dish out more xp and make the PC's even more powerfull). In my current party we don not even know what the others create, so it's only natural to want to be not only highly competent in your field but marginaly competent in everything else to. I used to have this party and I played a DN. My DM was... how to put this... not updated ruleswise so he was doing crazy stuff uncovered by any 3,5 books (and many 3,0 as well) and was pissed whenever I happened to have more aces up my sleaves than a Marilith in a tuxedo. Is that Black or White hat sittuation?
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Kuroimaken

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Re: Is C.O. "White Hat" or "Black Hat" ??
« Reply #42 on: November 03, 2009, 07:15:25 PM »
Quote
Is that Black or White hat sittuation?

D&D is the only place in the world where putting on a fancy hat will make you smarter, so neither.
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Keldar

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Re: Is C.O. "White Hat" or "Black Hat" ??
« Reply #43 on: November 04, 2009, 04:04:55 AM »
Black hat or white hat, I bet we can find a way to kill the Tarrasque with it!

Seriously though, CO is a tool, and like all tools, isn't inherently good or bad.  (Unlike Undead which are all evil, if you go by 3.5  :P)
The (various) CO community generally is in the White Hat camp.  Who do you think finds all the broken material?  If they were Black Hats, the first time you'd see it is when it walks all over your campaign, like a giant, radioactive, fire-breathing CoDzilla.  Its the CO folks who find the issues and push for errata, making the game better in the long run.

Generally the accusation that CO is "the debil" comes from RP fanatics.  Oddballs that think that taking Skill Focus (Profession) is the height of RPing, and taking Power Attack is a sin.  People who can't grasp that if you want a character to be good at a profession, that ranks easily represent that without the cost of a feat.  I've seen as much in game issues caused by the RP fanatics as I have CO work.  The thing is, the CO is easier to deal with generally.  You can make weak characters better to make the gap less and minimize the impact, or generally talk the player to tone down his problamatic combination.  When RPers cause problems, they get defensive in my experience claiming they're "just RPing their character," or can't understand that they're hogging the spotlight making it difficult for the other players to do anything.  (A feat that only truly over the top characters can do via optimization.)  I wouldn't call RP evil, or even call the RP focused community Black Hats (though their hats aren't as bright as the CO folks in my book).

Optimization is not good or bad, it simply is.  Omnipresent and omnipotent.

Negative Zero

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Re: Is C.O. "White Hat" or "Black Hat" ??
« Reply #44 on: November 04, 2009, 04:16:14 AM »
In my humble opinion, CO is haberdashery. Some say we're mad, but we can all agree we're hatters. Yes, we have potential to make very sophisticated hats, very fancy hats, be they dark or light. But the truth is that the color of the hat does not come from the group of us - our community doesn't directly produce hats. We simply give average head circumferences, list current fashion trends, and point out some shiny, obscure baubles to add to the latest hat line. In the end, it's the man himself that dyes the hat. It's his choice. It's yours.

Bloody Initiate

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Re: Is C.O. "White Hat" or "Black Hat" ??
« Reply #45 on: November 04, 2009, 04:24:47 AM »


Maybe I've just had more bad experiences - it's really tough to find a group where I live, and pretty much every group I've been with has "emphasized" the "role-play" part so much they seem to go out of their way to gimp their characters on occasion - and they call me a powergamer for optimizing, despite the fact I put as much effort into my character building story- and personality-wise as most of them, and sometimes even more; but at times all that effort simply never shows up.

I've had more of those bad experiences online thankfully.

As for the backstory thing, I know exactly how you feel. Deep backstory and character roleplay have significantly less value in tabletop. In PbP you can post vast monologues which everyone can (and does) disregard to your heart's content because they don't slow the game down (Your actions are listed right there and they can - and do - skip to them). In table top the same behavior is unlawful seizure of the spotlight as well as bringing the game to a screeching halt.

Forcing the other players to sit through your seduction scene at the table is just rude. If you can't make your roleplay in two sentences and as many rolls of the dice, you're overdoing it. In my group our main roleplayer does this extremely well (He also makes bad characters religiously) and his skill at roleplay impresses me. Now I'm spoiled and expect everyone to play as well as him if they insist on making characters as badly as he does.
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Operation Shoestring

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Re: Is C.O. "White Hat" or "Black Hat" ??
« Reply #46 on: November 04, 2009, 04:40:17 AM »
In my humble opinion, CO is haberdashery. Some say we're mad, but we can all agree we're hatters. Yes, we have potential to make very sophisticated hats, very fancy hats, be they dark or light. But the truth is that the color of the hat does not come from the group of us - our community doesn't directly produce hats. We simply give average head circumferences, list current fashion trends, and point out some shiny, obscure baubles to add to the latest hat line. In the end, it's the man himself that dyes the hat. It's his choice. It's yours.
I think you just won this thread.

Anklebite

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Re: Is C.O. "White Hat" or "Black Hat" ??
« Reply #47 on: November 04, 2009, 01:05:50 PM »
alice in wonderland quotes ftw?
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awaken DM golem

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Re: Is C.O. "White Hat" or "Black Hat" ??
« Reply #48 on: November 04, 2009, 08:42:59 PM »
 :lmao
Habberdashery and Alice ... nice  :D

Random

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Re: Is C.O. "White Hat" or "Black Hat" ??
« Reply #49 on: November 04, 2009, 09:15:26 PM »
As others have said, it's the person, not the optimization, that wears a white or black hat. Myself, I aspire to white, but generally end up in grey - I'm one of two optimizers in my group, and sometimes we get... competetive. I've only once completely destroyed a game, though: A GM with weak optimization-fu told me to roll an Artificer 18 for a 3-session game. The rest of the party was tier 4-5.

PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Is C.O. "White Hat" or "Black Hat" ??
« Reply #50 on: November 05, 2009, 12:37:00 PM »
What was he thinking?? He should have made you the tier 5 and let everyone else be the tier 1's (except maybe the other optimizer)
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An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
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Heliomance

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Re: Is C.O. "White Hat" or "Black Hat" ??
« Reply #51 on: November 05, 2009, 12:52:26 PM »
White Hat refers to Good Guy internet / computer fix it types, while Black Hat are the bad guys that bring down the internet on occasion.
I ask because Character Optimization has the reputation of being bad for the game ...
this in spite of the constant rejoinder against, with the Stormwind Fallacy.

Personally I like blowing up the game, not just because I'm good at it,
but because I DON'T want that happening at my home game.
To me, it feels like Program De-Bugging, with the sneaky/fun part of knowing the tricks caused by not debugging.

So, are you "white hat" or are you "black hat", or heck, are you "shades-of-gray hat" ...  ???


White hat generally refers to people that hack to find the weaknesses of a system so they can be fixed. Black hats hack to exploit the weaknesses and prfot from them. Grey hats hack because they can. CO is definitely grey hat to me.

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Re: Is C.O. "White Hat" or "Black Hat" ??
« Reply #52 on: November 05, 2009, 01:05:06 PM »
What was he thinking?? He should have made you the tier 5 and let everyone else be the tier 1's (except maybe the other optimizer)

The big problem, really, wasn't me out-rockstarring the party. It was that I played too nice - I spread the love across the entire party. He came equipped with threats that might have been a challenge to an unoptimized tier 4 party. With our gear, and harmony between the optimizers (I built crowd-control, the other guy had ridiculous single-target damage) it was two rounds of combat.

SorO_Lost

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Re: Is C.O. "White Hat" or "Black Hat" ??
« Reply #53 on: November 05, 2009, 05:23:34 PM »
White hat generally refers to people that hack to find the weaknesses of a system so they can be fixed. Black hats hack to exploit the weaknesses and prfot from them. Grey hats hack because they can. CO is definitely grey hat to me.
Well that decided it, I'm a Midnight Blue hat.
I just got bored was all...
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zavule

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Re: Is C.O. "White Hat" or "Black Hat" ??
« Reply #54 on: November 06, 2009, 04:17:32 PM »
Suppose that still makes me white hat.  I do try and help people make better characters, or suggest fixes when a DM has problem.  Nobody listens, but I try.  And if nobody listens, I go get my gray hat.


[/quote]

White hat generally refers to people that hack to find the weaknesses of a system so they can be fixed. Black hats hack to exploit the weaknesses and prfot from them. Grey hats hack because they can. CO is definitely grey hat to me.
[/quote]
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BowenSilverclaw

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Re: Is C.O. "White Hat" or "Black Hat" ??
« Reply #55 on: November 06, 2009, 04:23:27 PM »
Suppose that still makes me white hat.  I do try and help people make better characters, or suggest fixes when a DM has problem.  Nobody listens, but I try.  And if nobody listens, I go get my gray hat.


Quote

White hat generally refers to people that hack to find the weaknesses of a system so they can be fixed. Black hats hack to exploit the weaknesses and prfot from them. Grey hats hack because they can. CO is definitely grey hat to me.
+1, except for the fact that my current group does apreciate my advice :)

Hasn't been that way with my old groups though...
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Alastar

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Re: Is C.O. "White Hat" or "Black Hat" ??
« Reply #56 on: November 06, 2009, 04:31:16 PM »
I appreciate your advice bowen :D

BowenSilverclaw

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Re: Is C.O. "White Hat" or "Black Hat" ??
« Reply #57 on: November 06, 2009, 04:33:36 PM »
I appreciate your advice bowen :D

Thanks :)

(What kind of useful advice did I give again? :P)
"Weakness? Come test thy mettle against me, hairless ape, and we shall know who is weak!"

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Alastar

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Re: Is C.O. "White Hat" or "Black Hat" ??
« Reply #58 on: November 06, 2009, 04:36:51 PM »
I appreciate your advice bowen :D

Thanks :)

(What kind of useful advice did I give again? :P)

I don't remember!   :D

BowenSilverclaw

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Re: Is C.O. "White Hat" or "Black Hat" ??
« Reply #59 on: November 06, 2009, 04:38:44 PM »
I appreciate your advice bowen :D

Thanks :)

(What kind of useful advice did I give again? :P)

I don't remember!   :D

:lol

Good man! :P
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