Author Topic: Is C.O. "White Hat" or "Black Hat" ??  (Read 9355 times)

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Surreal

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Re: Is C.O. "White Hat" or "Black Hat" ??
« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2009, 03:22:08 AM »
Grey hat

In all honesty all I care about is coin and cleavage

You can get that out of CO?  Do tell, do tell.

First you get the sugar, then you get the power...
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Saxony

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Re: Is C.O. "White Hat" or "Black Hat" ??
« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2009, 06:04:44 AM »
I would say White Hat. C.O. allows more options. You can low-optimize or you can high-optimize. That lets your group play at high power levels or low power levels, all while playing the same classes with the same flavor (Healbot Cleric vs. Sun Domain Cleric vs. Divine MetaMagic: Persist Cleric). C.O. allows different groups with different preferences to get the same enjoyment out of the game.

It also upholds the rule that greater effort should reward greater power. Players wouldn't play the game if they never got anything for playing well. (IE: Someone whose been playing for years has the same power as someone who just started playing). Optimizing your character and making smart decisions is a way of playing well which rewards significantly in terms of power and options. Thus, C.O. increases enjoyment and replayabiltiy of the game.

It also allows fighter-types to rival the completely non-optimized Wizard 20. So it gets brownie points just for that.

Sometimes C.O. can get Black Hat at the game-table, but jerk players will always find a way to be jerks. C.O. gives them a competitive way to express their jerk tendencies.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2009, 05:14:58 PM by Saxony »
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Kuroimaken

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Re: Is C.O. "White Hat" or "Black Hat" ??
« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2009, 11:37:22 AM »
I'm definitely white hat, but my group sees me as black hat. Motherfuckers.  :banghead
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http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

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Get yours.[/SPOILER]

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altpersona

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Re: Is C.O. "White Hat" or "Black Hat" ??
« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2009, 12:42:26 PM »
I'm definitely white hat, but my group sees me as black hat. Motherfuckers.  :banghead


exactly.

while perception isnt == reality, it is a mirror
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PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Is C.O. "White Hat" or "Black Hat" ??
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2009, 10:43:08 AM »
I'm White.

But when going all-out to max the shit outta something I don't mind greying it up a bit if the rule of cool is appealing enough. An example would be what I was gonna submit to the Halloween competition before it flopped. Commanding a 94HD (170HD total) undead is sweet, but using an interpretation of a shady template to command a 186HD (354HD total) undead is worth feeling a little dirty  ;)
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ReaderOfPosts

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Re: Is C.O. "White Hat" or "Black Hat" ??
« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2009, 02:26:11 PM »
The power to fit most character concepts definitely makes C.O. White Hat, or at least capable of white hatting. The black hatting reputation comes from when fitting the character concept involves being too awesome for the foes you actually end up facing.

zavule

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Re: Is C.O. "White Hat" or "Black Hat" ??
« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2009, 04:26:06 PM »
I'm definitely white hat, but my group sees me as black hat. Motherfuckers.  :banghead

+1 on that.  I actually wait to see what my group needs before making my characters and I will explain the tiers to my DM and ask what level I should play at.  Despite this, I still have the reputation as a twink because I make characters that don't suck.
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TheWordSlinger

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Re: Is C.O. "White Hat" or "Black Hat" ??
« Reply #27 on: November 01, 2009, 07:57:02 PM »
I'm definitely white hat, but my group sees me as black hat. Motherfuckers.  :banghead

Same here.

This happens to me with my non-optimizer table-mates. I even offer them help/advice and they act like I suggested that we improve the Mona Lisa with Magic Markers.

I mean, for fuck's sake. The guy took Skill Focus (Profession (Gambler)) and bitches that his character can't do anything.
Currently playing:
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Kuroimaken

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Re: Is C.O. "White Hat" or "Black Hat" ??
« Reply #28 on: November 01, 2009, 09:28:19 PM »
I'm definitely white hat, but my group sees me as black hat. Motherfuckers.  :banghead

Same here.

This happens to me with my non-optimizer table-mates. I even offer them help/advice and they act like I suggested that we improve the Mona Lisa with Magic Markers.

I mean, for fuck's sake. The guy took Skill Focus (Profession (Gambler)) and bitches that his character can't do anything.

*facepalms*

Oh yeah, and what about when pretty much everything you bring to the table is (at least initially) branded as overpowered?

And then there's the ToB = twinking crowd. So I want my fighter to lob fireballs! Live a little, wouldja?  :banghead
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


TheWordSlinger

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Re: Is C.O. "White Hat" or "Black Hat" ??
« Reply #29 on: November 01, 2009, 09:30:04 PM »
I'm definitely white hat, but my group sees me as black hat. Motherfuckers.  :banghead

Same here.

This happens to me with my non-optimizer table-mates. I even offer them help/advice and they act like I suggested that we improve the Mona Lisa with Magic Markers.

I mean, for fuck's sake. The guy took Skill Focus (Profession (Gambler)) and bitches that his character can't do anything.

*facepalms*

Oh yeah, and what about when pretty much everything you bring to the table is (at least initially) branded as overpowered?

And then there's the ToB = twinking crowd. So I want my fighter to lob fireballs! Live a little, wouldja?  :banghead

Yeah, you know something's off when your Ranger/Favored Soul is branded as twinky...
Currently playing:
Forte Lulz, Chaotic EVIL Bard bent on world domination;
Canere Potentia, to sing of power.
Aralaxax, Warforged Osteomancer, Machines are my people, I wield bones as other wield swords.
Randall Gray, she's not sexually confused, honest!
Zion "I can make followers, but why bother when people line up for me?"
Currently DMing: Real Men Use Their Hands, World's Largest Dungeon
"If you can pretend to be a half-orc barbarian or a dwarf wizard then you can pretend to be an alpha male."-Ninjarabbit
"The hotel shop only had two decent books, and I'd written both of them."-Douglas Adams
"It's funny how the Earth never opens up and swallows you when you want it to." Xander Harris, Buffy the Vampire Slayer

Bloody Initiate

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Re: Is C.O. "White Hat" or "Black Hat" ??
« Reply #30 on: November 02, 2009, 12:27:12 AM »
To me your play style matters after your intention and your effect.

The goal of a GOOD player is the same as the goal of a good GM: Have fun while making sure everyone else does too (Failing the latter at least make sure you're not the reason they didn't have fun)

You can make builds that are absolutely indestructible/unstoppable or deliver your character's dialogue with faultless accent and idiosyncracies, but if at any point you are the reason other players and/or the GM didn't have a good night of gaming, then you're a BAD player.

I have played games that were about roleplay more than rules, and I have played games where merciless optimization is the name of the game for every single person at the table. There is, I promise, no alignment difference between the two.

I have also played games where the GM treated me with zero respect because I was a "Power gamer" (Funny story: I wasn't power gaming at all in that instance, my character was terrible but I wanted to play it because I just liked the persona). That guy was an ass. I played another game where one player designed his character specifically to dominate all of ours. That guy was an ass.

Jerks are jerks, no specific strategy or style is inherently evil, it's just that some tend to attract a greater quantity of assholes OR they bring out the asshole in everyone else.

C.O. doesn't wear a hat...















.....it wears a full cover helmet that protects against mind-affecting, possession, fear effects, gaze attacks, and improves or grants fortification of 25%.
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Kuroimaken

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Re: Is C.O. "White Hat" or "Black Hat" ??
« Reply #31 on: November 02, 2009, 12:40:05 AM »
I call bullshit on this statement.

Quote
You can make builds that are absolutely indestructible/unstoppable or deliver your character's dialogue with faultless accent and idiosyncracies, but if at any point you are the reason other players and/or the GM didn't have a good night of gaming, then you're a BAD player.

This is because more often than not, when the players have a bad night, the GM tends to take the fall - failing that, the C.O. player is next in line. Only AFTER those two steps are gone does anyone else get the blame. If the goal of the game is for everyone to have fun, it falls to the GM to make sure the underoptimized also have fun, not the C.O. player.

I am not one who likes to adjust playstyle to the table at hand. I know the rules, I know what I can do with them. I don't go out of my way to break the game, however.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


Bloody Initiate

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Re: Is C.O. "White Hat" or "Black Hat" ??
« Reply #32 on: November 02, 2009, 01:19:24 AM »
I call bullshit on this statement.

Quote
You can make builds that are absolutely indestructible/unstoppable or deliver your character's dialogue with faultless accent and idiosyncracies, but if at any point you are the reason other players and/or the GM didn't have a good night of gaming, then you're a BAD player.

This is because more often than not, when the players have a bad night, the GM tends to take the fall - failing that, the C.O. player is next in line. Only AFTER those two steps are gone does anyone else get the blame. If the goal of the game is for everyone to have fun, it falls to the GM to make sure the underoptimized also have fun, not the C.O. player.

I am not one who likes to adjust playstyle to the table at hand. I know the rules, I know what I can do with them. I don't go out of my way to break the game, however.

Maybe I didn't structure my statement well or you didn't read it right, but at no point was I talking about blame.

I'm talking about being an ass, which you address in the last part of your post (Where you say you don't go out of the way to break the game).

In my groups players don't lynch the GM when it wasn't a great night and they don't hate on the C.O. player either. So blame isn't a factor at all for me. People I play with are mostly pretty reasonable. It's not my good luck that makes this so, it's my good judgement. I've walked away from more games and/or groups than I've stuck with, because I know better than to play with people when there's no chemistry between us.

As for it being the GM's job to babysit the unoptimized, I know what you mean, but I disagree somewhat. If I'm capable, I as a player do my best to help everyone out and get everyone optimized. The people who don't accept help from anyone usually learn their lesson, because like I said, I play with reasonable people. I even had one guy say "My characters may not be GOOD, but..." which was enough to tell me that he was comfortable being mathematically unreliable. That's fine. Now when I hear he's making a rogue or cleric, I know that the rogue or cleric role has not and will not be filled by his character, so I need to account for it elsewhere. He still has a good time playing his pure RP characters, and the rest of us pick up the slack.

Now when a character becomes a genuine burden or hindrance to the group, it's a different ball-game.  A waste of space is not so bad as a ball and chain. Usually I find these easier to deal with since the problem is obvious and it's not hard to get back up. Everyone is different though, so I don't have any catch-all suggestions there.
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Flay Crimsonwind

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Re: Is C.O. "White Hat" or "Black Hat" ??
« Reply #33 on: November 02, 2009, 01:44:38 AM »
As a player, white hat. As a DM... black hat  :smirk
Bolded for emphasis, I think that's a general rule...

Definitely gray hat; I can optimize fairly well, but I never do anything too powerful. That being said, I do like to make something that's not really powerful, but can also be a complete pain in the ass to kill.  :D

I'm definitely white hat, but my group sees me as black hat. Motherfuckers.  :banghead
What he said.

Anklebite

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Re: Is C.O. "White Hat" or "Black Hat" ??
« Reply #34 on: November 02, 2009, 02:32:40 AM »
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Nanshork

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Re: Is C.O. "White Hat" or "Black Hat" ??
« Reply #35 on: November 02, 2009, 03:17:06 AM »
I'm definitely white hat, but my group sees me as black hat. Motherfuckers.  :banghead
What he said.
what they said.

+1.  My current group involves a player who is taking 7 levels of Paladin because it is too much work for him to look up a PrC that I suggested, a Catfolk Warlock, a Sharakim warmage, and Halfling Druid.  

I have a bard character who does Inspire Courage and the only bonus to it that I'm using is that spell that gives +1 to the bonus because it's a low-magic game, and they are actively complimenting me on showing them how awesome a bard can be.   :o
« Last Edit: November 02, 2009, 03:18:41 AM by Nanshork »
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Kuroimaken

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Re: Is C.O. "White Hat" or "Black Hat" ??
« Reply #36 on: November 02, 2009, 10:33:24 AM »
I call bullshit on this statement.

Quote
You can make builds that are absolutely indestructible/unstoppable or deliver your character's dialogue with faultless accent and idiosyncracies, but if at any point you are the reason other players and/or the GM didn't have a good night of gaming, then you're a BAD player.

This is because more often than not, when the players have a bad night, the GM tends to take the fall - failing that, the C.O. player is next in line. Only AFTER those two steps are gone does anyone else get the blame. If the goal of the game is for everyone to have fun, it falls to the GM to make sure the underoptimized also have fun, not the C.O. player.

I am not one who likes to adjust playstyle to the table at hand. I know the rules, I know what I can do with them. I don't go out of my way to break the game, however.

Maybe I didn't structure my statement well or you didn't read it right, but at no point was I talking about blame.

I'm talking about being an ass, which you address in the last part of your post (Where you say you don't go out of the way to break the game).

In my groups players don't lynch the GM when it wasn't a great night and they don't hate on the C.O. player either. So blame isn't a factor at all for me. People I play with are mostly pretty reasonable. It's not my good luck that makes this so, it's my good judgement. I've walked away from more games and/or groups than I've stuck with, because I know better than to play with people when there's no chemistry between us.

As for it being the GM's job to babysit the unoptimized, I know what you mean, but I disagree somewhat. If I'm capable, I as a player do my best to help everyone out and get everyone optimized. The people who don't accept help from anyone usually learn their lesson, because like I said, I play with reasonable people. I even had one guy say "My characters may not be GOOD, but..." which was enough to tell me that he was comfortable being mathematically unreliable. That's fine. Now when I hear he's making a rogue or cleric, I know that the rogue or cleric role has not and will not be filled by his character, so I need to account for it elsewhere. He still has a good time playing his pure RP characters, and the rest of us pick up the slack.

Now when a character becomes a genuine burden or hindrance to the group, it's a different ball-game.  A waste of space is not so bad as a ball and chain. Usually I find these easier to deal with since the problem is obvious and it's not hard to get back up. Everyone is different though, so I don't have any catch-all suggestions there.

Fair enough, I suppose I can call my post a knee-jerk reaction; my bad.

Maybe I've just had more bad experiences - it's really tough to find a group where I live, and pretty much every group I've been with has "emphasized" the "role-play" part so much they seem to go out of their way to gimp their characters on occasion - and they call me a powergamer for optimizing, despite the fact I put as much effort into my character building story- and personality-wise as most of them, and sometimes even more; but at times all that effort simply never shows up.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


Hallack

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Re: Is C.O. "White Hat" or "Black Hat" ??
« Reply #37 on: November 02, 2009, 10:46:09 AM »
Definitely White Hat for me.  Well, at least I always intend to be white hat, er, well.... almost always intend to be white hat.

Unless I'm in a game where normal (and even non-optimal) options are shut down (ala shades of DM fiat and/or DM optimizing encounters to always trump certain abilities).  Then I go into defensive optimization where I start covering all the freaking holes in my characters abilities and defenses (to the extent possible) so as to not end up with an ineffectual character.  I end up with characters with good wide ranging options that get around DM shutdowns.
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Endarire

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Re: Is C.O. "White Hat" or "Black Hat" ??
« Reply #38 on: November 02, 2009, 01:31:53 PM »
Bad things happen if CO is used maliciously.  Good things can happen if CO is used benevolently.
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Re: Is C.O. "White Hat" or "Black Hat" ??
« Reply #39 on: November 02, 2009, 01:38:59 PM »
Bad things happen if CO is used maliciously.  Good things can happen if CO is used benevolently.

Agree all depends on what the O means to you.

If optimize means being the perfect piece to the puzzle (or being fun and useful) then a CO is great.
If optimize means "LoL I am the puzzle and the pieces and you can stand in the corner till some neat ooc stuff comes up" then yeah I could see how that would be infuriating.