Author Topic: 3.5 Rebuild: How'bout them feats?  (Read 2379 times)

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Endarire

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3.5 Rebuild: How'bout them feats?
« on: October 29, 2009, 03:00:51 PM »
Intro
Feats were meant as a way to distinguish Human Fighter A from Human Fighter B.  I believe it unfortunate that feats, which had the great potential to become significant and meaningful ways to define your character became mostly negligible accessories.  When the typical character gets 6 general feats over 20 levels, and when most characters get no more than 3 general feats (because games and groups dissolve), and that icky feats are seen as justified prereqs for more interesting abilities, then it's fairly obvious why feats get a bad rap.

In 3.5, if the only difference between 2 creatures is that 1 has Weapon Focus and the other doesn't, then the one without Weapon Focus could use that feat for something useful, like Martial Study.  The Fighter is seen as lacking in so many cases because a Fighter's class features are only feats!

Consider the volume of feats.  When it was core books only, this was less of a deal, but now there are hundreds of official feats available.  Sure, a minor feat every 3 levels was OK when that's all there was.  Now, people go dumpster diving just to find something official, powerful, and interesting.  Sticking with the notion that 'feats should be accessories,' giving PCs 1 feat per class level is less of a deal if you- the DM- are already upping the ante by using enemies with class levels.  And flaws.  And your players' tricks.  (At low levels, it's hard to beat a small mob of kobolds hiding under a bed focusing fire on the party with magic missiles, or a dragonborn water orc Crusader with Martial Spirit, but I digress.)

Another problem I see with feats is that they typically don't scale.  Weapon Focus is +1 at level 1 or level 90.  There are often feat chains to continue progression, like Greater Weapon Focus, but these are extra feats to take.  If Weapon Focus rewarded you for keeping up your BAB, like giving you +1 more accuracy for every 4 BAB you had, you'd be more inclined to stick with full BAB classes.  If Weapon Focus represented an immediately noticeable effect, like +3 accuracy now, more people would want to take it.  Make Weapon Focus +3 now and +1 more per 4 BAB and you'll have Fighters lining up around the block.

The most difficult decisions are often power now or power later.  Power now means I can do my main tricks right now, when I begin play, though I may regret my decisions later.  For example, if I start at level 2, a Wizard will be squishy and one of the best ways to keep him alive is to stay in the back, have him drop to his knees, and pray.  Oh, and cast grease and mage armor once in awhile.  Meanwhile, the frothy half-orc Crusader1/WhirlPounce Barbarian1 is preparing fileted minion and chunky salsa for the party every encounter, and helps ensure foes never move without his permission.

In contrast, power later means just that, saving yourself for a time you may never reach.  Crappy prerequisite feats abound, like needing Spell Focus: Conjuration to take Augment Summoning.  Druids don't cast Conjuration spells with DCs, with minor exceptions.

Full price metamagic feats are another classic example.  Without Divine Metamagic et al, ye olde Persistent Spell at +6 levels means that my Wizard can bind genies for wish loops, you can make resistance last all day, but only if your DM allows you to persist touch spells.  This ridiculousness is probably why the 3.5 Incantatrix has Metamagic Effect, and why Metamagic Effect is one of the most desired abilities for arcane casters.  Finally, I can use all these feats I never would otherwise!  Thank you, Lord!

Even if you don't pay full price for metamagic feats in spell slots, you still need 3 or 4 feats for Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell once per day.  Once!  If you think Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, DMM: Persist, and Extra Turning is a reasonable price to pay to use a metamagic feat once per day, I've got a castle in Barovia to sell ya.

I once made a Wizard who started at level 1 and whose build came together around level 15, which took about a year and a half in real time.  He could get 3 free Quickens per day and one-shot foes with a staff of various high-level spells he made.  He was awesome for a level or 3, but then the character had to retire.  I thought to myself, "Self, this is what happens when a build comes together.  It's a pity it took so long!"

For me, feats are one matter that makes me go 'meh.'  Getting a minor ability every level or 3 which usually ends up as a prereq isn't my idea of fun.  If I can safely choose what feat to take, I'm usually at a loss.  After I've taken Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot, I can call myself an archer, but I need those feats to actually hit something when my party's close to it.  I could go Rapid Shot, but Ranger2 grants that.  I could go Weapon Focus, but meh.  Shot on the Run looks interesting!  Wait, its prereqs suck and I couldn't get that for 10 levels.  Difficult decisions shouldn't mean picking which crappy feat seems least crappy!

Remember how many people say healing and blasting are often icky options in combat, or how certain feats aren't worth the ink used to print them?  More people would be inclined to use this options with feats like these:

-Augment Mending [Healing]
   When you successfully use the Heal skill on someone or you restore hit points to a creature or an object, you heal an extra 5 HP.  If you restore HP via a spell, power, or similar effect, you instead restore 5 extra HP per spell level of the effect.  Level 0 spells and effects restore an extra 5 HP.  Living constructs and targets that normally get healed less or more from healing instead get exactly this amount of HP granted by this feat.
   Items you use don't benefit from this feat.
   For example, if you successfully use the Heal skill to stabilize a dying creature, that creature is stabilized and gains 5 HP.  If you use cure minor wounds on a typical human or inflict minor wounds on a typical undead, that creature is healed 6 HP instead of 1.  If you use repair light damage at caster level 1 on a construct, that construct is healed d8+6 HP instead of d8+1.  If instead you used a wand of cure light wounds at caster level 1 against a typical human, you'd heal d8+1 instead of d8+6.
   Even Martial Adepts can benefit from this feat.  With Augment Mending, if you used Strike of Righteous Vitality (Devoted Spirit9) in Martial Spirit stance (Devoted Spirit1), you would heal the target 195 HP from the level 9 strike and 7 HP from the level 1 stance, even though Strike of Righteous Vitality mimics a heal, which is normally not a level 9 spell.
   If you use an ability that heals HP over time, the extra HP granted by this feat are healed immediately but healing over time is done as normal.  If you cast mass lesser vigor, each target is healed 16 HP the first round and 1 HP each round thereafter.
   This feat replaces the granted power of the Healing Domain.

-Big Booms! [Wizard]
   Whenever you cast a spell that does hit point damage to a target and this target takes HP damage from your spell, you may add your casting ability modifier once per spell level (minimum once) to this damage once per target.  If spell does more than once energy type, this feat's bonus damage is likewise split.  If the target saves and takes less damage, the bonus damage from this feat is likewise reduced.
   For example, a typical 18 INT Wizard5 with this feat could fire 3 projectiles from magic missile, each dealing d4+1 damage.  Each target damaged by a magic missile would take 4 extra damage.  If instead he cast fireball against a Rogue who took no spell damage because of Evasion, the Rogue wouldn't take extra damage from the Wizard having a high INT.
   For a third example, if a 20 WIS Cleric9 with this feat cast flame strike, he would deal 9d6+25 damage per target.  Assuming he would normally do 59 damage (34 rolled + 25 from this feat), creatures who saved would take 15 divine damage and 14 fire damage.

-Black Lore of Moil [Metamagic]
   When you cast a Necromancy spell that does hit point damage, you may do an extra d10 negative energy damage per spell level (minimum +d10).  If this Necromancy spell doesn't normally deal HP damage, such as a ray of enfeeblement, this damage is only +d10 per 2 spell levels, rounded up.
   For example, a ray of enfeeblement would get +d10 damage as a first level Necromancy spell that doesn't normally do HP damage, while slay living would do 3d6+4d10 damage +1/caster level if the subject didn't die outright.
   If the spell has a save for reduced damage, such as horrid wilting, this extra damage isn't reduced on a successful save.
   Black Lore of Moil doesn't increase the spell slot level.  You may apply this feat spontaneously to any Necromancy spell you cast without affecting the cast time.

-Improved Point Blank Shot [Fighter] - Requires Point Blank Shot, 8 BAB
   When you make a ranged attack against a target within 60' of you, you get +4 accuracy and damage against that target.  This accuracy and damage bonus increases by 1 for every 2 BAB you have.  These bonuses don't stack with the bonuses granted by Point Blank Shot.
   Also, you don't provoke attacks of opportunity when you attack with a ranged weapon or effect and you're in melee.

-Improved Precise Shot [Fighter] - Requires Precise Shot, 8 BAB
   When attacking with a ranged weapon, you automatically bypass cover less than total cover and concealment less than total concealment; however, you still must aim at one of your target's squares to benefit from this feat.
   Also, once per round, you may reroll one ranged attack roll you make after you roll it but before you know the results.  You must accept the results of the reroll.
   A Ranger11 who chose the archery style gets Precise Shot and Improved Precise Shot automatically.

-Melee Training [Fighter]
   Pick an ability score (STR, DEX, CON, INT, WIS, or CHA).  For the purpose of determining melee accuracy, you may use this ability score instead of your normal ability, usually STR.
   Pick the same or another ability score.  For the purpose of determining melee damage you may use this ability score instead of your normal ability, usually STR.  You must be able to add an ability modifier to damage, such as from swinging a sword or punching someone's eye out.  Wielding a weapon in more than 1 hand does extra damage as if you had the same amount of STR.  Effects like shocking grasp that don't normally add an ability modifier to damage won't benefit from this aspect of Melee Training.
   Pick the same or another ability score.  For the purpose of determining melee touch accuracy, you may use this ability score instead of your normal ability, usually STR.
   For example, an elf Wizard with Melee Training would be able to swing his longsword using his INT modifier instead of his STR modifier, add his INT bonus to damage with his longsword instead of STR, and use his INT modifier instead of his STR for melee touch attacks, such as shocking grasp.  Alternatively, he could instead use his CON modifier for normal melee accuracy, his DEX modifier for melee bonus damage, and his INT modifier for melee touch accuracy.
   For another example, an elf Wizard with 18 INT who wields a longsword in 2 hands would normally deal d8+6 damage.  If he wielded a separate longsword in each of his 2 hands, and he didn't have Two-Weapon Expertise (new feat; see below), not only would his accuracy penalties be tremendous, he would add only half his INT bonus to damage (d8+2) with off hand attacks.
   You may take this feat more than once.  If you do so, pick an additional ability score for each category.  You may use any of these scores to determine your melee accuracy, melee damage, and melee touch accuracy.
   Melee Training counts as Weapon Finesse for the purpose of meeting prerequisites, regardless of the ability scores used.

-Persistent Spell [Metamagic] - Requires Extend Spell
   Persistent Spells last for at least 24 hours instead of their normal duration.  Applying Extend Spell to a Persistent Spell causes the spell to last 48 hours.  Spells that require concentration to maintain, such as detect magic, continue to function, but operate only on their most basic level.  You can't change targets, gather new information, etc. until you resume concentration.
   Only spells with a range of personal or touch or with a fixed range (such as 50') can be persisted.
   Persistent Spell increases the spell slot level by 4.  You may spontaneously apply this feat to a spell once per day without increasing the spell slot level.  Each time you take this feat, the number of free daily uses increases by 2.

-Point Blank Shot [Fighter]
   When you make a ranged attack against a target within 30' of you, you get +2 accuracy and damage against that target.  This accuracy and damage bonus increases by 1 for every 4 BAB you have.
   Also, you don't provoke attacks of opportunity when you attack with a ranged weapon or effect and you're in melee.

-Precise Shot [Fighter]
   You suffer no ranged accuracy penalty when firing with a ranged weapon or effect into melee.  Also, creatures that would normally provide less than total cover or/and total concealment to you because of your target instead provide no cover or concealment to your ranged attacks.
   Sources beside creatures provide cover and concealment as normal, and you still must fire at your target's square(s) to benefit from this feat.

-Shield Expertise [Fighter]
   When you wear a shield with which you're proficient, the armor check penalty is reduced by 2 (minimum 0), the max DEX bonus to AC increases by 3 and the arcane spell failure is reduced by 20%.  Furthermore, the shield AC bonus provided by the shield you wear increases by 1 if it's a buckler, 2 if it's a light shield, 3 if it's a heavy shield, or 6 if it's a tower shield.  This shield bonus to AC increases by 1 for each 4 HD you have.
   A shield treated as a lighter weight category grants the AC bonus as if it were its unreduced weight.
   When you use shield bash, you may keep your shield bonus to AC.
   When you use bucklers, you don't suffer -1 accuracy when you attack with the corresponding arm.  Furthermore, you get the buckler's AC when you attack with the corresponding arm.
   Only physical shields that grant at least +1 shield AC benefit from this feat.  Spells and effects like shield, even if they provide a shield bonus to AC, don't benefit from this feat.
   Alternatively, you can use the shield bonus granted by Two-Weapon Defense with this feat.  If you do so, your shield bonus to AC increases by 2 normally, plus 1 for each 4 HD you have.  If instead you fight defensively or use the total defense action, your shield bonus to AC from Shield Expertise is likewise doubled.

-Simple Spell Mastery [Wizard]
   When you take this feat, you may use arcane spells from level 0 slots from all sources as at-will abilities.  If you prepare spells, you must still prepare the appropriate spells to use them at-will, and can change them when you normally prepare new spells.  If you cast spells spontaneously, all spells cast from level 0 slots that you know can be cast at-will.
   Even if you prepare spells, you can spontaneously apply metamagic feats without affecting the spell's casting time so long as the spell uses a level 0 slot.
   When a class would allow you to cast at least level 4 arcane spells and your caster level for all spells from that class you can cast is at least 7, you can also cast spells from level 1 slots from that class at will in the same manner described above for level 0 slots.
   When a class would allow you to cast at least level 6 arcane spells and your caster level for all spells from that class you can cast is at least 11, you can also cast spells from level 2 slots from that class  at will in the same manner described above for level 1 and 0 slots.
   When a class would allow you to cast at least level 8 arcane spells and your caster level for all spells from that class you can cast is at least 15, you can also cast spells from level 3 slots from that class  at will in the same manner described above for level 2, 1, and 0 slots.
   For example, a human Bard1 who took Simple Spell Mastery would be able to use both his level 0 spells at will.  At Bard2 when he gained another cantrip known, he could also use this at will.  At Bard10 if he had at least 18 CHA and knew a level 4 Bard spell, he could use his level 1 Bard spells at will.  If he went Bard11/Wizard1, he couldn't use his level 1 Wizard spells at will since he couldn't cast level 4+ Wizard spells and his caster level is too low.  He could, however, choose 3 level 0 Wizard spells each day to use at will.  If he had the metamagic feat Energy Substitution: Electricity (+0 slot adjustment), he could spontaneously apply this feat to every acid splash he cast to convert the acid damage to electricity damage without increasing the casting time.

-Weapon Focus [Fighter]
   Each time you take this feat, choose a type of weapon with which you are proficient, such as a longsword, spiked chain, shortbow, unarmed strike, or touch attack.  You get +3 accuracy with this type of weapon, and an additional +1 accuracy for every 4 BAB you possess.

-Weapon Specialization [Fighter] - Requires 4 BAB
   Each time you take Weapon Specialization, choose a weapon type for which you are proficient, such as a longsword, spiked chain, shortbow, unarmed strike, or touch attack.  You do an extra 2 points of damage each time you hit, plus an extra 1 point of damage per 4 BAB you have.
   Additionally, all attacks you make with your chosen weapon also overcome DR/Magic.

-Whirlwind Attack [Fighter]
   When you make a full attack, you may choose to forfeit your normal number of attacks (including bonus attacks from effects such as haste).  If you do so, you may perform a whirlwind attack by attacking once each creature in range in a clockwise or counterclockwise manner.  All attacks must be with the same melee weapon and are made at your highest attack bonus.  Attacking creatures in this manner doesn't normally provoke attacks of opportunity.
   After you make your whirlwind attack, you may use Cleave and Great Cleave as normal if you have them.  Only the last enemy in the whirlwind attack can trigger Cleave or Great Cleave, but if you Cleave through that foe, you can continue cleaving as normal.

Shocked?  Amused?  Inspired?  Angry?
By making new feats equal to about 2-3 old feats, the effect is obvious:  Things are more powerful, and many would say more awesomesauce.  Prerequisite feats are there because the higher end feats improve on these old abilities.  Feats are to the point.  Feats scale.  Now I feel like feats provide difficult decisions in a good way.

-Improved Initiative isn't looking so obvious when Weapon Focus means at least a 15% greater chance to hit.

-Simple Spell Mastery means a Wizard can acid splash each around if he likes (triggering Cloudy Conjuration if he has that feat), or a Bard can spam cure minor wounds.

-Augment Mending lets people heal efficiently if they desire while using fewer wands of cure light wounds/lesser vigor and Healing Belts.

-Metamagic feats have built-in utility so people can use them right now instead of making late game builds (or buying metamagic rods) to bypass annoying restrictions.  People who want to use them more often can still pay more.

What do you think?
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Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

altpersona

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Re: 3.5 Rebuild: How'bout them feats?
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2009, 05:39:20 PM »
i didnt read all your aqua feats (those things aquaman swims with..)

i think most feats should tree, stack, or scale.

i agree that +1 wp focus sucks. and really dosnt compare w/ precocious apprentice.

i dont know you can fix that system w/ out scrapping it and starting from scratch....

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Midnight_v

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Re: 3.5 Rebuild: How'bout them feats?
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2009, 07:15:20 PM »
Endairre...

Combat feats? Combat feats need to scale. It lets people do everything and keeps the melee-ist from suffering overmuch and give them level appropriate things.

I... there is someone who puts it better than me but... I frank(ly) get tired of quoting him.

Now the moil feat and the improved archer feat for example...

Quote
-Black Lore of Moil [Metamagic]
   When you cast a Necromancy spell that does hit point damage, you may do an extra d10 negative energy damage per spell level (minimum +d10).  If this Necromancy spell doesn't normally deal HP damage, such as a ray of enfeeblement, this damage is only +d10 per 2 spell levels, rounded up.
   For example, a ray of enfeeblement would get +d10 damage as a first level Necromancy spell that doesn't normally do HP damage, while slay living would do 3d6+4d10 damage +1/caster level if the subject didn't die outright.
   If the spell has a save for reduced damage, such as horrid wilting, this extra damage isn't reduced on a successful save.
   Black Lore of Moil doesn't increase the spell slot level.  You may apply this feat spontaneously to any Necromancy spell you cast without affecting the cast time.

Not bad really Not incredible but an intereesting effect and while damage generally sucks being able to tack on an extra bitch slap to ray of enfeeblement is cool.
Quote
-Improved Point Blank Shot [Fighter] - Requires Point Blank Shot, 8 BAB
   When you make a ranged attack against a target within 60' of you, you get +4 accuracy and damage against that target.  This accuracy and damage bonus increases by 1 for every 2 BAB you have.  These bonuses don't stack with the bonuses granted by Point Blank Shot.
   Also, you don't provoke attacks of opportunity when you attack with a ranged weapon or effect and you're in melee.

Look at these two feats. Why is it that improved point blank shot requires a feat at all? Most people get only 7 feats across the gamut of pc dom.

Point blank shot should do what it does and then at level 6-8 add this ability. Just naturally.

Quote
This accuracy and damage bonus increases by 1 for every 2 BAB you have.  These bonuses don't stack with the bonuses granted by Point Blank Shot. 
Well why not? They totally should. Unless we're trying to keep a lock on the power of archery or something? Further the higher you go the less the damage acutally matters. when its going to culminate around +10

The problem I see here is this with any rebuild from now on if Combat feats = Metamagic feats then something good has been done if not then we've failed.

The best remedy for this is just make the Combat feats scale to be level approrpiate things.
You shouldn't have to take: Weapon focus then Gr/weaponfocus... adnauseum.
 You take weapon focus and at each level it scales to do something level apprpriate based on you base attack bonus. This keeps guys with swords from being too bad off for what their purchasing with their feats.


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altpersona

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Re: 3.5 Rebuild: How'bout them feats?
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2009, 07:30:55 PM »
wp focus could work like practised caster, +4 up to hd, then greater for another +4 stacking at 8th lvl and so on..
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Midnight_v

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Re: 3.5 Rebuild: How'bout them feats?
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2009, 07:55:49 PM »
The problem is that this goes in the wrong direction also. . . as a primary player of fighters and melee-ists in general, I realize that the problem doesn't lie in numbers very much at all but in movement and status effect lack as well as a lack of a way to break the action economy. Lastly not having a feat that gives a stacking bonus to damage and thats ALL it does... well that damage has to be super signifigant like.... the craven feat for instance. Most people aren't comforatble with that... even though thats what mages have been up to for this whole edition.
Having scaling feats I mean true scaling feats fix the broken dichotomy between caster and warrior.

I'll give an example...

"Now. . .
 All that I quoted isn't to say that "All feats need to scale" but yes all combat feats need to scale and tremendously. No not tremendously but enough that taking a combat feat does NOT feel worse some how at 20th than at first.
There are many examples that I could post of what I'm talking about but since I'm talking about Base attack bonus primarily with feats as a subset of that I'll use the same system as before.

Weapon Mastery:
"Holy shit you're good with that blade" -Astonished combatant
Choose a weapon or a group of weapons that are similar (For example: Bludgeoning, piercing, slasing) and at each bab you gain the following benifits....
Bab
0: You gain a +2 to weapon attack rolls *obviously all of this applies only to the choosen weapons
1: You gain a +2 to weapon damage rolls 
6: Anyone who is struck with both of your attacks in one round must make a saving throw 10+1/2character level + your str. You may choose to attack :Fort, Will, or Ref.
If fort: Then the opponent is Dazed
If Ref: Then the opponent is knocked prone (or back and prone 5ft in the adjacent sqare of your choice)
If Will: The opponent will be frightend for one round.
You gain an additional +2 to hit.
11: You may take 10 on all attacks with your chosen weapon(s) You gain an additonal +4 to dmg
You also gain an additional +4 to resist disarm attempts
16: add + 5 to any attack made after the first turn, if you hit the opponent at least twice this round you may activate one of the level 6 abilities at with a +4 to the save dc You also gain a + 4 to all base combat maneuvers ie.(bullrush, grapple and trip)
20: Astonishing Blow: You may forgo all your attacks in a round to make one astonishing blow.
As a standard action treat your attack roll as though it was an natural 20 it is treated this way in ALL respects, triggering any feat, ability, item etc... (yay vorpal returns, merry christmas)
This attack must be declared before the dice roll. You still need to confirm the critical however. You may not take 10 on this attack.


Of course this is an extrapolation on what the tome series did but I believe it to be one of the strongest options for attaining a balanced system concerning melee-ist. Or something very similar. Now that for COMBAT FEATS.
Metamagic feats work fairly well but your changes make them better.

We can also make manuever feats so that the people who want to play Book of 9 swords: ToB style characters aren't left out.

Basics of Tob style "Manuever" feats
[spoiler] All I know is that if we changed the way feats work it goes a long way toward actualy having a class that has feats as its class abilities. ala the fighter or whatever.
I like the iteratives as I don't want to force people to take martial strikes as thier main method they should have the option to train to do special things or just beat people up... because we've balanced the power of melee/ranged/and magic.
Here's another example, I mean we're passed it somewhat but again i don't see what the issue is and all my feat ideas are bab scaling so I mean its whatever I guess.
In anycase:
Mountain Hammer
Feat type: Martial Manuver
Prequisites: None.
Bab
0: Stone foot stance *see ToB for definitions
1: Mountain Hammer
6: Overwhelming Mountain Strike
11: Elder Mountain hammer
16: Ancient mointain hammer
20: Mountain tombstone strike

or something to that effect. . .
It really very simple and if you make things to complex then you've made things poorly. see polymorph as an example.
So yeah I'll stand by that as what I see as the best way to go. Though if no one wants to go that direction hey... I'm not sure what your trying to fix with your changes but its totally possible that I fixed that part.
I think this is simple and good and really fixes what 3.5 was missing.
  [/spoiler] We could basically ties the recovery method to the school, that way the old school fighter lovers aren't left feeling betrayed and the ToB people still get to do the "Five-shadow-creeping death enervation strike!" or whatever.

The important thing is you don't get that sour taste in your mouth/sinking feeling in your gut when you take Two weapon fighting, and the Druid takes natural spell or the arcanist takes Arcane thesis.
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altpersona

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Re: 3.5 Rebuild: How'bout them feats?
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2009, 08:01:39 PM »
i like that, all the way till the 20th lvl ability.. their im kinda meh..

trade maybe 8 - 20 attacks for one natural 20? nah..
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Midnight_v

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Re: 3.5 Rebuild: How'bout them feats?
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2009, 09:10:58 PM »
i like that, all the way till the 20th lvl ability.. their im kinda meh..

trade maybe 8 - 20 attacks for one natural 20? nah..
Thank you but...
uhmm... Altpersona... Thats not the point. What we put there specifically is irrelavant as long as its on the same power level as things like "Island in time" and "Strike of perfect clarity" or a quadrapounce attack.

The point is for a rebuild feats should be included. However there needs to be some feat equivalency. Especially for combat feats. Feats need to be...
1. equal to spells. (as for what effects come online at what level
2. equal to or greater than feats that modify other people class abilities. Metamagic and Psionic feats for example.

The point is that any "Combat feat" needs to scale to base attack bonus {which bab is the real determinate of fighting ability, or its supposed to be.}
 We can leave some feats as they are, metamagic doesn't need to scale for instance. It just need to do what it does to modify spells, because spells scale appropriately on thier own (in most instances).
 
If we expand what it is feats are capable of a and how they interact for melee-ist then ultimately we end up with a better game.
Here's another example that I don't have to pull out of arbritrarium:

Mage Slayer
"Oh black, blackness without begining or EyAAAHAHH!!" -Dead Magi, Last words. 
pre-reqs: Knowledge arcana 4 ranks,
Bab:
0: swift and immediate spells provoke attacks of oppurtunity from you.
1. Casters you threaten can't cast defensively. Gain +1 on will saves.
6. Pierce magical Protection. Complete arcane page 82
11. Pierce magical concealment CA pg 81-82
16. Spell Resistance XX (the actual number doesnt' matter here because this is an example)
20. *Delay Arcanum* If you are are affected by a spell, SL, or Su ability while flatfooted or suprised immune to the effects of that spell until after you've taken your turn for that round. If the originator of that effect is killed by that time, you remain unaffected.

*we've entered arbitrarium here because any level appropriate ability that says "Not so much" to mages
Something. Momentary disjuction, or Greater dispellings... or whatever.
While the power are important the true important thing is the set up of scaling for combat feats.



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altpersona

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Re: 3.5 Rebuild: How'bout them feats?
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2009, 09:31:08 PM »
i like that, all the way till the 20th lvl ability.. their im kinda meh..

trade maybe 8 - 20 attacks for one natural 20? nah..
Thank you but...
uhmm... Altpersona... Thats not the point. What we put there specifically is irrelavant as long as its on the same power level as things like "Island in time" and "Strike of perfect clarity" or a quadrapounce attack.


i was agreeing w/ya...

i know thats not the point, just putting my 2c in for a critique.. ma bad..
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Midnight_v

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Re: 3.5 Rebuild: How'bout them feats?
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2009, 09:59:28 PM »
No. No thats cool.
 I just was making sure I wasn't coming off as giving those as "I think this should be the feat" as opposed to "I think feats should look something like *this*"
I've found that such things work incredibly well...
I'm thinking of doing a big book of scaling feats.
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Endarire

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Re: 3.5 Rebuild: How'bout them feats?
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2009, 06:47:37 PM »
My Original Intent
Point Blank Shot is meant for standard archers.  Improved Point Blank Shot is for people who want to specialize in archery. 

Upon reflection, I see this is probably asking too much of our poor archers.  Mind you, (Improved) Point Blank Shot was one of the first feats I redesigned.
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"