Breaking and Entering: a Thief's Guide

[bearsarebrown]

Suggestion: the ones that obviously don't fit, the bright reds, just don't put them in the guide. The races section is already kinda long and it's hardly even started.

Maybe explain what makes a good sneak race, then list the 'ok' ones, the 'good' ones, and the 'amazing' ones.

[Operation Shoestring]

A Human or Azurin Incarnate with Able Learner is actually a  passable thief.  He just doesn't get trapfinding until level 4, but if you game starts higher than that...  ^^

You do need to have a decent INT score for skills though.

And the best thief is still a caster, technically.  Who need trapfinding when you can just bull through traps with cheap-o skeletons?  Who needs hide when you have invisibility and non-detection?  Who needs open lock when you have Knock and detect secret doors?

[Negative Zero]

Tactile Trapsmith (CAdv) lets you use Dex instead of Int for Disable Device and Search, which is great for builds that think that want SAD.

[snakeman830]

A Human or Azurin Incarnate with Able Learner is actually a  passable thief.  He just doesn't get trapfinding until level 4, but if you game starts higher than that...  ^^

You do need to have a decent INT score for skills though.

And the best thief is still a caster, technically.  Who need trapfinding when you can just bull through traps with cheap-o skeletons?  Who needs hide when you have invisibility and non-detection?  Who needs open lock when you have Knock and detect secret doors?

I would imagine that the things most worth stealing are likely to have defenses such as an AMF combined with well-hidden, auto-reset mechanical traps.  Casters can't do squat there.

Tactile Trapsmith will be mentioned, but Intelligence is still necessary for skill points.

[Nunkuruji]

Tibbit's from Dragon, Were-creatures of small/tiny forms and alternate form PC dragons can potentially make decent infiltrators.

No one expected it from Mr. Fluffy!

[PhaedrusXY]

A Human or Azurin Incarnate with Able Learner is actually a  passable thief.  He just doesn't get trapfinding until level 4, but if you game starts higher than that...  ^^

You do need to have a decent INT score for skills though.

And the best thief is still a caster, technically.  Who need trapfinding when you can just bull through traps with cheap-o skeletons?  Who needs hide when you have invisibility and non-detection?  Who needs open lock when you have Knock and detect secret doors?

I would imagine that the things most worth stealing are likely to have defenses such as an AMF combined with well-hidden, auto-reset mechanical traps.  Casters can't do squat there.

I wouldn't imagine that at all. Permanent AMFs are actually really hard to make following the rules.

Also, undead work just fine inside AMFs. So you can still use them to set off and/or destroy traps.

And it is very possible to build a caster who is almost every bit as sneaky as a non-caster using skills alone (focus on stats will likely mean that the non-caster has a bit higher Dex, but not by much).

And you can block Line of Effect to allow you to cast inside an AMF. So if you're a small race, you can have your big beefcake undead carry around a lead dome and stick it over whatever location you want to cast inside. Hell, per the RAW even a sheet would work. Ghost for Halloween, anyone?

In summary: if you leave casters out of this entirely because someone somewhere might have an AMF, you're really throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

[snakeman830]

In summary: if you leave casters out of this entirely because someone somewhere might have an AMF, you're really throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

I threw the casters out because of numerous reasons:

A. I've been a little short on time and haven't been able to put them in yet.
B. Most of what I'm doing now is copying the relevant sections of the original guide, which was decidingly anti-caster.
C. Saying "a caster can do it better" is meaningless because a caster can do everything better.
D. The NPC's/DM can safely say "Screw the rules, I can do whatever I want", since magic is pretty relevant in D&D world and setting up a defense like this would be common sense.

Undead still aren't much help against resetting traps other than letting you know where they are.

[Akalsaris]

beguiler, binder, and artificer are all pretty solid thieves as well.

[PhaedrusXY]

beguiler, binder, and artificer are all pretty solid thieves as well.

Which is arguing my point (maybe that's what you meant to do, though...). Two of those three I'd definitely classify as "casters", and the third is close to one.

Basically, in a game where everyone is optimized, the "thief" should be a caster of some kind. If the rest of the party consists of rangers, fighters, flavored souls, and hexblades, then yeah, play a non-caster if you want.

I'll drop out of this "argument" at this point, since it is snakeman's guide, and his business how he wants to do it.

[JaronK]

For gear, make sure to consider the mundane gear.  At low levels (the places where folks like Rogues actually can do B&E well) mundane gear is what matters.  Shadowsilk Armor, the Muffling enhancement for armor, Silent Shoes, Earthsilk Rope, and a variety of other items are very useful.  Another amazing piece of gear, though it's magical, is the Shadow Hands from Tome of Battle.  Shadow Jaunt is VERY handy.

I'd of course put Factotums well above Rogues in this.  Int to all Dex and Str based skills blows Skill Mastery out of the water at the levels where you actually have Skill Mastery, and +level to any skill is extreamly potent.  Plus, the ability to actually cast Knock and thus get through Arcane Lock is critically important.  Permanent AMFs are insanely hard to put up.  Arcane Locked Doors, however, stop Rogues cold unless they have Knock, and unlike a Factotum, a Rogue can't make a wand of Knock so they have to purchase one (and hope it's available to purchase).  Remember also that a Silence spell with an adamantium weapon can just cut through most barriers... the door may be magically secured, but the wall next to it probably isn't.  And they can cast Alter Self (into a Skulk or Whispergnome) for extra fun.

Beguilers are also much better infiltrators.  They lose things that don't matter much to infiltration (like Sneak Attack) but are Int based (more skills in the long run) and can cast Knock as well as use illusion magic to sneak in much easier.

And don't forget Swordsages.  The Mountain Hammer line of strikes takes out any physical obstacle while the combination of Shadow Jaunt and Cloak of Deception gets them anywhere.  By about level 5 they should have little trouble getting anywhere.  Eventually they'll get the ability to phase through walls.  Or you can take a level of Swordsage as a dip at level 5 and just get those utility manuevers added in to any other class.  I'm a big fan of Factotum X/Swordsage 1 as an infiltrator... the throw manuevers are hilarious with the Factotum 3 ability, after all.

JaronK

[snakeman830]

Keep in mind I haven't had time to put much effort in.  Other than the Races section, I'm pretty much copy-pasting.  The original guide is undeniably anti-caster.  They WILL get their fair share once I'm done updating.

[PhaedrusXY]

Shadowsilk Armor

I had to google that one. It's nice, but kind of pricey. I could see it being worth it, though, for the skill boosts and reduced weight. It's really nice that the skill boosts are unnamed (and so stack with everything).

My weak-assed cleric who isn't sure if he is a wizard or sneak wound up going with MW chitine web armor. It's from the Underdark book, is light armor with +3 AC, max dex +6, ACP -0, 10 lbs, 225 gp (including MW price). It breaks down in 3 months if not maintained by a chitine... or I can just cast Make Whole on it occasionally. A darkwood heavy shield (257 gp, no ACP) is also a nice, cheap item that won't mess up your skills. Sometimes I wish I'd went with a light shield so I could use my shield hand, though.

[JaronK]

Shadowsilk Armor

I had to google that one. It's nice, but kind of pricey. I could see it being worth it, though, for the skill boosts and reduced weight. It's really nice that the skill boosts are unnamed (and so stack with everything).

The fact that it's mundane means that if you can craft mundane gear at Masterwork level (DC 20) you can get it for 1/3 cost as long as you start with it (since you probably won't have time to do it once the game starts).  This is very easy for Factotums (Magecraft + Int Bonus + Masterwork Tools) and Cloistered Clerics (Divine Insight + Masterwork Tools).  Other classes can invest skill ranks in Craft if they so desire.  Don't forget Muffling... the move silently bonus is nice and cheap.

And yeah, the weight is great for Halflings and Whispergnomes.  Weight is always such an issue with those guys!

JaronK

[bayar]

Artificiers might be able to make them cheaper.

[PhaedrusXY]

And yeah, the weight is great for Halflings and Whispergnomes.  Weight is always such an issue with those guys!

It's an issue with Str 7 Illumians, too. Good point about crafting stuff, if the DM will let you get away with it. You're basically "breaking" WBL, though.

[bayar]

And yeah, the weight is great for Halflings and Whispergnomes.  Weight is always such an issue with those guys!

Actually, for thieves that wanna steal a lot of stuff, they either need bags of holding, either a good STR score.

And small races should have problems with stealing stuff that belongs to medium sized creatures without magical aid.

[JaronK]

Actually, for thieves that wanna steal a lot of stuff, they either need bags of holding, either a good STR score.

Bags are often too heavy when combined with gear.  As such, a Handy Haversack and lightweight armor get the job done nicely.

JaronK

[snakeman830]

I've started on the Prestige Class section.  This part I'm not looking at the old guide for.

[deuxhero]

I think Darkstalker beats mindsight (forget where it was from).

[PhaedrusXY]

I think Darkstalker beats mindsight (forget where it was from).

Nothing (officially) beats Mindsight, except not having a mind.