Burning Wheel? Suggestions?

[AfterCrescent]

Okay, so I've been listening to the podcasts recently, and, of course, posting on the boards. I know that with RPGs it's hard to get a feel for how a game plays by word of mouth because every gaming group plays differently.  However, that being said, the BGs clearly enjoy Burning Wheel. Besides enjoying playing it, the key thing seems to be excellent mechanics that hold up an actual social encounter. Duel of Wits, etc.

So I finally decided, hey, why don't I try it for my gaming group? I have a couple players who always want more social encounters than combat in D&D, which the system just wasn't made to handle smoothly. So I'm going to crack open the BW system and see what's what.  Now my question to all/any of you who play/played Burning Wheel: What books/information should be first on my list to get, besides the "Burning Wheel Revised"?

I was checking out the shop for BW here and figured before making a heavy investment that I should get some advice from the big wigs

So what say you all?

[Josh]

You do not need anything other than the basic books.

Monster Burner does expand the world and provides some extra beasts, so that is a good supplement.

Other than that check out the website and you will find tons of free stuff.

The other books provide additional settings, as opposed to new material for the original setting.

Feel free to post any questions and I have a few suggestions as to play aids.  Print out Fight and Duel of wits sheets from the website and then put them in sheet protectors (or laminate them).  Use dry erase markers to check the boxes.  I would have been confused about that if I had not seen it in demos. 

[Meg]

Yep, just the 2 core books will do you.

Now-- deep dark secret time.  I'm mixed about Burning Wheel.  There are parts I like (combat and the duel of wits are great.  Character creation is a TON of fun) and then parts I'm personally not into.  Everything that happens in a game is action, not reaction.  I do better when I'm reacting to the situation and in BW, the player makes everything happen. 

A game basically goes like:
GM- set's up situation based on everyone's lifepath
Player- I want to try to find a way to do X. 
Then you roll to see if you can do that.

There's not really any "you enter a room.  you see XYZ.  The man in the corner looks shift.  What are you going to do?"

Totally just personal preference, but it takes a bit getting used to after playing D&D exclusively for years.

[AfterCrescent]

Everything that happens in a game is action, not reaction.

Thanks for the heads up. The playersI'm thinking of getting BW for have only played D&D so that may be a big change for them. After I get my copy of the books and read through it, I'll make sure to bring up that point.

[Meg]

I think most people will like that style, which is one of the reasons it's popular.  It's just really important to let them know that ahead of time so they have proper expectations.  Also will be really good to let them know their lifepaths have to play an active role- to choose them based on what you'll be able to make up as the game goes on.

For example, last time we played, I played a character based on Dexter (a sociopath who hides in society and kills only those who deserve to be killed).  My lifepaths were things like "Patience will go rewarded" and "some people need killin'"-- very passive things.  I was waiting for opportunities to present themselves, but that's not how this game works. 

So just tell them repeatedly that they will help direct the story and must take an active roll and to make character who can do that and it will all be good.

The game also has a reward system I'm not crazy about, mostly because I've seen too many times how a competitive reward can cause negative feelings, and it sure did with this game too.  I was the only one not to get any cookies from the GM (ever in our 3 sessions) and I'd like to say I'm an adult and above such things, but I'm not.  Definitely causes a bit of competitiveness and animosity towards other players ("Well all he did was X but I did Y!  How come he gets the cookie??")

[Josh]

In BW characters have intrinsic motivations. 

[Josh]

Gotten anywhere with your reading yet?

[AfterCrescent]

I'm actually on campus at school right now, and I had the books shipped to my house. I just got the call that they came in yesterday, so I'm going to pick them up this weekend and get to reading.   I'm actually pretty excited.

[AfterCrescent]

So I was sick last week, which was a major inconvenience, but I'm home right now and actually just started reading through the first book. It's getting my hopes really high... I hope it delivers full on with these mechanics. I'll be back with further judgment/analysis.

[BobismyRhino]

So just tell them repeatedly that they will help direct the story and must take an active roll and to make character who can do that and it will all be good.

This sounds like we're going to get into a whole lot of trouble. Remember who you're DMing, after...

The game also has a reward system I'm not crazy about, mostly because I've seen too many times how a competitive reward can cause negative feelings, and it sure did with this game too.  I was the only one not to get any cookies from the GM (ever in our 3 sessions) and I'd like to say I'm an adult and above such things, but I'm not.  Definitely causes a bit of competitiveness and animosity towards other players ("Well all he did was X but I did Y!  How come he gets the cookie??")

Is there any way around that? We're a competitive bunch as it is. I know I wouldn't be the only one pouting if I didn't get something in the end.  :-\

All in all, I'm excited. I love roleplaying, and this sounds like it'll enhance the game a whole lot.

Do I approve of after's purchase of more gaming supplies? 

Stay tuned. 

[Josh]

The reward system is not actually competitive.  It is just less abstract than xp and you get it for a number of specific circumstances all tied to your character.

So if your goal is to usurp your brother, you get artha when you do stuff to accomplish that goal.  The reason why it is "unfair" is that some characters might earn artha when they chat up a contact, whereas others need to kill someone. 

You also only advance the skills you use, and only really hard rolls count to advance.

And then finally there is the trait vote.  You only advance traits when your fellow GM and players think you should.

The problem that Meg had was she was a killer of serial killers, like Dexter.  When it was her turn to do something the way BW does it is she would describe a target, we would set the difficulty and then she would roll to find them, and then the merry chase ensues.  The disconnect is that she just wanted to wait for an NPC to come along that happened to be like that, because that is how it would go in other RPGs. 

[AfterCrescent]

I definitely like the player driven feel of the game from what I've been reading. I'm only 75 pages in, but a lot of is really good. I think one of the most interesting aspects, to me, is that it really thrives on team work. In party conflict is good, in party fighting/bickering/killing not so much.

I'll be honest, though, the advancement system seems a bit complex.  It may be that I just don't have the complete grasp of the system yet, but yeah... We'll see.

[Josh]

I definitely like the player driven feel of the game from what I've been reading. I'm only 75 pages in, but a lot of is really good. I think one of the most interesting aspects, to me, is that it really thrives on team work. In party conflict is good, in party fighting/bickering/killing not so much.

The other great thing is that if players have a disagreement they can resolve it.  No lingering disagreements like other games.

I'll be honest, though, the advancement system seems a bit complex.  It may be that I just don't have the complete grasp of the system yet, but yeah... We'll see.

It seems more complicated than it is.

[AfterCrescent]

Okay, I'm starting to get a little lost with some of the organization... I was reading through the main book and I hit the section where it basically says "Read the Character Burner, try making a character or two, get a feel for the system." That's all well and good (and a great idea) , but I still have no idea how faith/magic works.  Really hard to get a feel for a character if I don't know if the priest I'm building buys spells like a mage or what.

Then, of course, I read through the character burner and hit each races' "Common Traits" which they don't tell you are free and must be taken (you have to read the character burner worksheet for that comment) and I find traits that are listed for a lifepath but aren't mentioned ANYWHERE else in the book.  It's highly confusing.  Did I miss something somewhere?

[Josh]

Okay, I'm starting to get a little lost with some of the organization... I was reading through the main book and I hit the section where it basically says "Read the Character Burner, try making a character or two, get a feel for the system." That's all well and good (and a great idea) , but I still have no idea how faith/magic works.  Really hard to get a feel for a character if I don't know if the priest I'm building buys spells like a mage or what.

Then, of course, I read through the character burner and hit each races' "Common Traits" which they don't tell you are free and must be taken (you have to read the character burner worksheet for that comment) and I find traits that are listed for a lifepath but aren't mentioned ANYWHERE else in the book.  It's highly confusing.  Did I miss something somewhere?

Don't make characters with faith or magic yet.  Unlike DnD the party does not need any classes.  Also to start just make Men.

And yes you get all of the common race traits for free, they are figured into the character.

There is a section on giving different cultures 3 free character traits, personally I just give all PCs three free character traits.

Traits not listed are character traits.  They mean what the player and GM want them to mean. 

Let me know if you need to know what character traits are for.

[AfterCrescent]

Thanks. That does help.  And I've figured some of the things out, but other than helping to actually flesh out a character, it seems to me that the character traits do not have a mechanical effect on the game. Correct?

I think you're right about the whole, start off slow, I just have a penchant for making characters tied at some point to the clergy and faithful as a trait opened up all kinds of things I was not ready for when making a character.  I'm going to crunch out 3-5 characters and just get a feel for character creation right now and then dive back into the specific mechanics sections.

[Josh]

BITs, that is Beliefs, Instincts and Traits define your character.  In BW your character is his/her BITs and they are not anything else.  If your character does not have the tall trait, he/she is average height.

Where they are mechanically useful is when you could say they give you an advantage.  If you are locked in a pushing match with a bad guy and you are tall, you would have an advantage.  Then again if he has huge, he has the advantage.  Conversely the huge guy has a disadvantage when wriggling through the bars of a cage.

Also you earn artha (fate) when your traits help the story by making it more complicated. 

And during a trait vote you can change character traits into die traits

Something to remember about faith is that it is based on medieval tales of faith, Christian faith basically.  Faith is for miracles, not spells. 

[AfterCrescent]

Where they are mechanically useful is when you could say they give you an advantage.  If you are locked in a pushing match with a bad guy and you are tall, you would have an advantage.  Then again if he has huge, he has the advantage.  Conversely the huge guy has a disadvantage when wriggling through the bars of a cage.

I don't know what I was thinking. I've read most of the mechanics now (I've avoided magic per your suggestion until after I try playing a little to get a feel for the flow of the system.) and I went back and re-read the basics, which really helped.  The FoRKs combined with character traits (along with tests for advancement) seemed very confusing on my first read through, but on the second run, once you have a rough overview of the system it's a lot clearer.

Also you earn artha (fate) when your traits help the story by making it more complicated. 

I love that, by the way. Yeah, you get artha when you follow your beliefs, but you get it especially well when you make your insticts complicate things.

And during a trait vote you can change character traits into die traits

As an aside, how often do you have trait votes when you play? The recommendation is at the end of an "adventure" but I've seen a lot of different opinions for what constitutes an "adventure..."  I'm thinking at the end or beginning of a session?  Do you think that's too often?  Our gaming group usually ends up meeting and gaming for ~6+ hours, so a lot can get done (even more so in BW, me thinks)

Another idea... The character burner worksheets are great. The actual sheets are pretty good, but I get the feeling some things (routine v difficult v challenge tests or weapon range organization) will get confusing for new players so I was thinking of making a sheet for each player with some of the important charts to help keep track of these kind of things.  Do you think that might be a good idea?

[Meg]

I think you've found it, but just in case someone stumbles on this thread, there are awesome downloads here for Burning Wheel

The Download Wiki

Big Suggestion:

Print out a bunch of copies of The Fight Scripting Sheet and the Duel of Wits Scripting Sheet and laminate them so each member of your party has one.  Then use a wet-erase or wax crayon to mark your selections for each fight and erase them. 

Lots of goodies on that site.  The DM screen has great info and the Intro for players is perfect.

[AfterCrescent]

Yes, I have found and am already using that site.

Ohh. The laminating is a GREAT idea.  I would have killed half a rain forest  Thank you for the idea.  I was just thinking that little chart of what type of test for skill and stat advancement would be nice if each player had one so when I say "Okay, that's an Ob 4" they can check and see how many die they are rolling and compare it to the chart to mark down their advancement...