Author Topic: Master Spellthief...Nar Demonbinder... I am so confused  (Read 2502 times)

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Archmage Joda

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Master Spellthief...Nar Demonbinder... I am so confused
« on: October 28, 2009, 02:11:31 PM »
Ah yes, the old Master Spellthief with an Ultimate Magus subject. Of course, even now, every time I look at it using Nar Demonbinder for my spontaneous side, I end up getting so very confused about the resulting caster level calculations. How precisely does Master Spellthief work? Does its text mean that all my caster levels pool together for one big total, or is it just adding my spellthief caster level to the rest? How would Nar Demonbinder's CL calculation go into that?

My attempt to figure it out after reading that one day session thread:

Wizard 5/Spellthief 1/Wizard Casting 2/Nar Demonbinder 1/Ultimate Magus 10/Wizard casting 1

Wizard:
18 base from Wizard and PrCs
4 Spell Power from UM
=
22 Wizard CL

Nar Demonbinder:
7 base demonbinder caster level
18 Wizard caster levels
4 spell power from UM
=
29 Nar Demonbinder CL

Spellthief:
0 Spellthief base
22 + 29 Master Spellthief
4 Spell power
=
55 Spellthief CL

I can't help but think I am wrong, and when I'm so certain of being wrong, it's usually because I am. So, what precisely am I doing wrong? Also I request explanations so that I can put my confusion to rest.
"My advanced brain is far too meaty to be swayed. Plus, it's practically dripping with genius sauce made from a special recipe of 11 herbs and spices" - Black Mage

shadowlancer

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Re: Master Spellthief...Nar Demonbinder... I am so confused
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2009, 07:32:50 PM »
Master Spellthief applies to all your arcane casting classes. You don't necessarily add them all up in a pool (with Nar Demonbinder, anyway, which specifies levels in one other class. It's not specified if that's class levels or caster levels, but either way.... Knight of the Weave has less specific requirements, so it feeds back and gets crazy quickly). But for each arcane casting class you have, you add your Spellthief levels to it along with your levels from any other arcane classes.

With the build you give, you'd only have 7base+5wizard+4ASP=16CL for Nar Demonbinder - assuming class levels, not caster levels. But, for any arcane spell you cast from either class, you add the 16CL from Nar Demonbinder to the 22CL from Wizard, for a total effective CL of 38. If you assume caster levels instead of class levels, then you have 7base+22wizard+4ASP=33CL for Nar Demonbinder, for a total effective CL of 55, as you calculated.

The most confusing part is the way Nar Demonbinder words the stacking rules. I find putting it all into a spreadsheet helps.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2009, 07:42:39 PM by shadowlancer »
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Master Spellthief...Nar Demonbinder... I am so confused
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2009, 07:41:50 PM »
Knight of the Weave has less specific requirements, so it feeds back and gets if your DM is crazy quickly).
FTFY
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

shadowlancer

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Re: Master Spellthief...Nar Demonbinder... I am so confused
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2009, 07:43:59 PM »
Well, yeah. Feedback loops are TO territory.
"Ugly programs are like ugly suspension bridges: they're much more liable to collapse than pretty ones, because the way humans (especially engineer-humans) perceive beauty is intimately related to our ability to process and understand complexity. A language that makes it hard to write elegant code makes it hard to write good code." --ESR (This applies to RPG systems too.)

Archmage Joda

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Re: Master Spellthief...Nar Demonbinder... I am so confused
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2009, 08:08:35 PM »
So basically, my math is correct (assuming that the nar demonbinder thing is referring to caster level, not class levels, that's a debate for somewhere and someone else), and my notion of the feat is correct, it's just that it's a gateway to madness nonetheless?
"My advanced brain is far too meaty to be swayed. Plus, it's practically dripping with genius sauce made from a special recipe of 11 herbs and spices" - Black Mage

shadowlancer

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Re: Master Spellthief...Nar Demonbinder... I am so confused
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2009, 08:09:27 PM »
Pretty much, yeah. :D
"Ugly programs are like ugly suspension bridges: they're much more liable to collapse than pretty ones, because the way humans (especially engineer-humans) perceive beauty is intimately related to our ability to process and understand complexity. A language that makes it hard to write elegant code makes it hard to write good code." --ESR (This applies to RPG systems too.)

JaronK

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Re: Master Spellthief...Nar Demonbinder... I am so confused
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2009, 08:19:49 PM »
As a note about Master Spellthief, it stacks for purposes of what level spells you can steal, but not what level spells you can store.  With only a single level of Spellthief, you can steal up to 9th level spells with that build, but only store a single spell level.  Not terribly useful.  You need more Spellthief levels (or possibly some Major Bloodline levels) to store more spells.

JaronK

Archmage Joda

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Re: Master Spellthief...Nar Demonbinder... I am so confused
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2009, 08:30:21 PM »
Well, I understood that part of it, so at least I can say that I understood something about that feat at least. It was really the interaction of it with the caster levels of Nar Demonbinder and Ultimate Magus that was confusing me. I thank you for the reminder of that though, since it's the kind of detail I could see myself forgetting if it did come into play.

Once more to make utterly sure I've got the idea correct, this time using knight of the weave instead of demonbinder:

[spoiler]
Wizard 5/Spellthief 1/KotW 1/UM 10/Incantatrix 3

Wizard:
18 base + PrCs
4 UM Spell Power
=
22

Knight of the Weave:
8 Base + UM
22 Wizard
60 Spellthief
4 UM Spell Power

Spellthief:
0 base
22 Wizard
34 KotW
4 Spell Power UM
= 94
[/spoiler]

Somehow that doesn't seem right to me...If it's not, then I guess I don't understand as well as I thought, and if it is...wow.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2009, 09:24:35 PM by Archmage Joda »
"My advanced brain is far too meaty to be swayed. Plus, it's practically dripping with genius sauce made from a special recipe of 11 herbs and spices" - Black Mage

shadowlancer

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Re: Master Spellthief...Nar Demonbinder... I am so confused
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2009, 11:34:38 PM »
Aside from the fact that KotW requires spontaneous casting or BAB +5, it looks right to me. And yeah, wow.

Feedback loops are powerful.

For more crazy, how about this: you don't actually need Ultimate Magus to trigger this (it helps immensely, but it's not strictly necessary). And you can get Knight of the Weave, Nar Demonbinder, and Master Spellthief all in the same build. That's a double feedback loop, though, which I don't even want to think about calculating right now.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2009, 11:45:22 PM by shadowlancer »
"Ugly programs are like ugly suspension bridges: they're much more liable to collapse than pretty ones, because the way humans (especially engineer-humans) perceive beauty is intimately related to our ability to process and understand complexity. A language that makes it hard to write elegant code makes it hard to write good code." --ESR (This applies to RPG systems too.)

Archmage Joda

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Re: Master Spellthief...Nar Demonbinder... I am so confused
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2009, 02:54:34 AM »
Well, as for the spontaneous casting requirement, that's why you go to wizard 5 and take good ol' spontaneous divination. Since then that's 3rd level spells, they're arcane, and you cast them spontaneously.
"My advanced brain is far too meaty to be swayed. Plus, it's practically dripping with genius sauce made from a special recipe of 11 herbs and spices" - Black Mage