Author Topic: Enveloping Pit: Your own portable underground base  (Read 36059 times)

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Sinfire Titan

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Re: Enveloping Pit: Your own portable underground base
« Reply #80 on: October 04, 2010, 11:04:55 PM »
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Benly

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Re: Enveloping Pit: Your own portable underground base
« Reply #81 on: October 04, 2010, 11:07:00 PM »
Now for the portable hole since it is an extra dimensional space it would have its own gravity once in it, but the fabric of the hole would be subject to the plane it is on.

My issue with that is that if you presume both that the portable hole generates its own gravity and that it can be activated to create its hole in directions other than "down", you generate effects which normally require Reverse Gravity or similar spells to create and which are not on the list of spells required to create the Hole. Generally you would assume that if the portable hole is capable of generating gravity-altering effects, it would require such a spell in its creation (especially as such a spell exists in core, so it's not an issue of "no relevant spell for the effect".) What this seems to indicate, to me, is that either the Hole does not generate its own gravity or it can't be activated when placed at the "wrong" angle.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Enveloping Pit: Your own portable underground base
« Reply #82 on: October 05, 2010, 12:46:29 AM »
What effects do you get that normally require reverse gravity, et cetera, that you wouldn't get if the direction of gravity were dependent upon the direction of the opening?

Shouldn't having a consistent down direction for everything inside the hole make more sense than having one where you can arbitrarily change what direction "down" is at will for the people inside?
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Benly

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Re: Enveloping Pit: Your own portable underground base
« Reply #83 on: October 05, 2010, 01:12:01 AM »
What effects do you get that normally require reverse gravity, et cetera, that you wouldn't get if the direction of gravity were dependent upon the direction of the opening?

Shouldn't having a consistent down direction for everything inside the hole make more sense than having one where you can arbitrarily change what direction "down" is at will for the people inside?

Hang the Portable Hole on a wall. Congratulations, you now have the classic "gravity-switched hallway" trap.

Now, granted, what makes the most sense to me is only allowing the Portable Hole to be placed on a surface that's oriented properly for it to be "down", but I know better than to try to have that particular argument with people again. :)

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Enveloping Pit: Your own portable underground base
« Reply #84 on: October 05, 2010, 02:29:01 AM »
It's hardly a trap when you've got the obvious edges.  And reverse gravity doesn't give you 90 degree angles.

And if you put the pit on a swivelling floor and then spin it, you've got something worse than reverse gravity.
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Enveloping Pit: Your own portable underground base
« Reply #85 on: October 05, 2010, 03:06:00 AM »
Honestly, I'd be even happier if the DM said it had the same gravity as the surface it was on. I'd rather have a 50' long 1-story building than a 50' deep hole in the ground, if I'm going to use it as a "base".

One big problem with this is: what happens when you fold up the pit with people and other things inside of it?

I really think the pit has its own gravity, which is totally unrelated to what's outside of it. It is its own plane of existence, after all.
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Sinfire Titan

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Re: Enveloping Pit: Your own portable underground base
« Reply #86 on: October 05, 2010, 03:12:01 AM »
I really think the pit has its own gravity, which is totally unrelated to what's outside of it. It is its own plane of existence, after all.

Same here. Place it against a wall, and you have a 50ft cliff. Put it on the ceiling though...


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dna1

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Re: Enveloping Pit: Your own portable underground base
« Reply #87 on: October 05, 2010, 05:16:38 AM »
hmm. so what would happen if you put the entrance on the ceiling? 
idk.. since it is it's own extra dimensional space, i kind of picture that no matter what angle, or where the entrance is, it would always open up to the 50' pit going down. almost like a elevator shaft.. you could come in at any angle, but its always straight down.
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Sinfire Titan

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Re: Enveloping Pit: Your own portable underground base
« Reply #88 on: October 05, 2010, 10:46:58 AM »
hmm. so what would happen if you put the entrance on the ceiling? 
idk.. since it is it's own extra dimensional space, i kind of picture that no matter what angle, or where the entrance is, it would always open up to the 50' pit going down. almost like a elevator shaft.. you could come in at any angle, but its always straight down.

Maybe putting it on the ceiling puts the entrance at the bottom of the pit?


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dna1

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Re: Enveloping Pit: Your own portable underground base
« Reply #89 on: October 06, 2010, 02:26:28 AM »
well if the pit exists in its own space. i would imagine anytime you open it, the opening appears in the same spot... at the top.  just my take on it  :D
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Re: Enveloping Pit: Your own portable underground base
« Reply #90 on: October 16, 2010, 04:24:10 AM »
extradimensional spaces typically are not the same as the local environment where the entrance is located. air quality comes to mind for a reference point.
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Re: Enveloping Pit: Your own portable underground base
« Reply #91 on: November 06, 2010, 02:32:35 PM »
Gravity is something I thought was pretty clear.

The old (and I mean AD&D old) trick was to use a PH to get the entire dragon's hoard loaded up.  You threw it on the ground to load it, and plastered it on a wall to have it empty most of its contents (and we had a 10' table top mounted on the wall we could lower like a draw bridge to help 'tip out' the last of the coins).

As far as I am concerned it has no gravity of its own.  If folded up there is no gravity, just as there is no air supply.  Once opened the orientation will supply air and gravity once again. 

Makes the castle less pleasant to inhabit citing the physiological issues astronauts deal with in micro-gravity environments.  Even if you supplied air, most crafting would get totally nerfed in zero G (alchemist's could grow huge freaking crytals though).

nijineko

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Re: Enveloping Pit: Your own portable underground base
« Reply #92 on: November 08, 2010, 02:52:33 AM »
could reverse gravity be used to create gravity inside the pit? i can't recall any create gravity effect offhand.
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jojolagger

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Re: Enveloping Pit: Your own portable underground base
« Reply #93 on: November 08, 2010, 03:27:50 AM »
As an extra-dimensional space, the portable hole/enveloping pit would has separate planar traits (including gravity). As Planar traits are separate on each plane, and gravity is assumed in a normal situation, we can deduce that a portable hole/enveloping pit has it's own gravity.
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Re: Enveloping Pit: Your own portable underground base
« Reply #94 on: November 08, 2010, 09:12:01 AM »
Nowhere is it said that extraplanar spaces opening into the Prime have their own planar traits when open.
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Enveloping Pit: Your own portable underground base
« Reply #95 on: November 08, 2010, 12:01:05 PM »
As an extra-dimensional space, the portable hole/enveloping pit would has separate planar traits (including gravity). As Planar traits are separate on each plane, and gravity is assumed in a normal situation, we can deduce that a portable hole/enveloping pit has it's own gravity.
Nowhere is it said that extraplanar spaces opening into the Prime have their own planar traits when open.
It is also not stated that they don't. It is stated however that they are planes, and planes have their own traits. So the most logical deduction is that they have their own traits regardless of whether they're currently connected to another plane via an active portal or not.
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Nytemare3701

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Re: Enveloping Pit: Your own portable underground base
« Reply #96 on: November 08, 2010, 12:55:23 PM »
"Well, it doesn't SAY that humans don't have 12 arms..."

If the book doesn't list planar traits, they are assumed blank. This would mean (for simplicity's sake) that it has the same planar traits as the place it was created. Fire elementals can have portable holes too right?

NOTE: I am aware that this opens up planar shepherd style shenanigans for the price of a plane shift and a portable hole.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Enveloping Pit: Your own portable underground base
« Reply #97 on: November 08, 2010, 01:10:35 PM »
Let's go look at what the rules actually say:

Quote
Physical Traits

These traits determine the laws of physics and nature on the plane, including how gravity and time function.

From the "types of planes" section:
Quote
Demiplanes

This catch-all category covers all extradimensional spaces that function like planes but have measurable size and limited access. Other kinds of planes are theoretically infinite in size, but a demiplane might be only a few hundred feet across.

From the description of Portable Hole:
Quote
When spread upon any surface, it causes an extradimensional space 10 feet deep to come into being. This hole can be picked up from inside or out by simply taking hold of the edges of the cloth and folding it up. Either way, the entrance disappears, but anything inside the hole remains.


So in summary:

1) Planes have their own traits, including gravity.

2) Extradimensional spaces are demiplanes, a type of plane

3) Portable holes are extradimensional spaces.

4) Therefore, Portable Holes have their own planar traits, including their own gravity.


This is directly from the RAW, requiring basically no extrapolation (all of these things are fully defined and described in the rules I quoted above).

So regardless of how they're oriented, the gravity inside the extradimensional space is going to remain constant. I guess the creator of a portable hole could decide to give it different planar traits than a "standard" one has, but I'm not sure how that would work.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2010, 01:18:56 PM by PhaedrusXY »
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Nytemare3701

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Re: Enveloping Pit: Your own portable underground base
« Reply #98 on: November 08, 2010, 01:16:45 PM »
Alright, then we just need to define "normal" don't we?

1. Prime Material Plane traits.
or
2. Plane the object was crafted on traits.


1 seems to be the intended direction, but 2 seems to make more sense.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Enveloping Pit: Your own portable underground base
« Reply #99 on: November 08, 2010, 03:06:05 PM »
Quote
Physical TraitsGravityNormal Gravity
Most planes have gravity similar to that of the Material Plane. The usual rules for ability scores, carrying capacity, and encumbrance apply. Unless otherwise noted in a description, it is assumed every plane has the normal gravity trait.
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