Author Topic: Races Handbook  (Read 36538 times)

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HCL

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Re: Races Handbook
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2009, 06:28:31 PM »
They also have other great uses, like making Gish builds really easy, and having a mini-DMM of their own.

Yeah definitely. I think that overall they should be kicked up to tier 1.

Samb

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Re: Races Handbook
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2009, 07:25:05 PM »

The Tier system for classes is already pretty much assuming you are playing the optimal race for the class, Wizards are Strongheart Halflings, Sorcerers are Draconic Gnomes or Dragonwrought Kobolds, Barbarians are human or Goliath. Prestige classes also assume a particular entry, like Sandshaper is +1 when you are a Sorcerer or Dread Necromancer, etc. I am not making assumptions about what you are already playing, I am just saying that over the course of the game these races tend to perform in such and such a way.
You misunderstood me, I say your rating is invalid because it doesn't really rate the races but the classes they were intended for, and if that is the case why would I even need to read this "race handbook" when it simply tells me what has been stated and debated 1000 times already?

The intended class for a race should have no bearing for your rankings, but rated on how much they add to the class in the first place.  A orc wizard will still be more powerful than a human barbarian no matter how subpar orc as a race is for a mage.

Is this ranking really on races or just another extended class tier?

HCL

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Re: Races Handbook
« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2009, 07:48:39 PM »

The Tier system for classes is already pretty much assuming you are playing the optimal race for the class, Wizards are Strongheart Halflings, Sorcerers are Draconic Gnomes or Dragonwrought Kobolds, Barbarians are human or Goliath. Prestige classes also assume a particular entry, like Sandshaper is +1 when you are a Sorcerer or Dread Necromancer, etc. I am not making assumptions about what you are already playing, I am just saying that over the course of the game these races tend to perform in such and such a way.
You misunderstood me, I say your rating is invalid because it doesn't really rate the races but the classes they were intended for, and if that is the case why would I even need to read this "race handbook" when it simply tells me what has been stated and debated 1000 times already?

The intended class for a race should have no bearing for your rankings, but rated on how much they add to the class in the first place.  A orc wizard will still be more powerful than a human barbarian no matter how subpar orc as a race is for a mage.

Is this ranking really on races or just another extended class tier?

I don't get where you are going with this. Race and class are linked.

If there was a hypothetical race in Tome of Magic that gave a +5 unnamed bonus to truename checks, +2 to all knowledge checks, and Extend Utterance as a bonus feat that would make it the superior option for a Truenamer, and pretty lackluster for everything else. You can't possibly compare that race to Human or Dwarf without taking into account that the Truenamer is one base class out of all of those available, is almost never played, and is completely broken to a point where it revolves around a single feat (Quicken utterance) to make it even close to viable. So that would fit into a Tier 4 or Tier 3 race (does something "well" but is pidgeonholed, and that something is lackluster).

Rebel7284

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Re: Races Handbook
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2009, 05:00:33 PM »
I disagree with a bunch of those ratings.   The one that bothers me the most is high elf, however.  Tier 5? really? With all the alternate class features, prestige classes, and other perks elves can get you rate them lower than a bunch of LA races that have no redeeming features?  Yes the other elf subraces are usually better, still, tier 3 or perhaps high in tier 4.
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HCL

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Re: Races Handbook
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2009, 08:05:47 PM »
I disagree with a bunch of those ratings.   The one that bothers me the most is high elf, however.  Tier 5? really? With all the alternate class features, prestige classes, and other perks elves can get you rate them lower than a bunch of LA races that have no redeeming features?  Yes the other elf subraces are usually better, still, tier 3 or perhaps high in tier 4.

Why would you be a high elf Ranger/Paladin when you could be a Wood or Wild elf? Why be a High elf generalist wizard when you could be a Grey elf or just go for Strongheart Halfling/Dwarf/Human/Azurin and either specialize or simply pick up the Conjuration or Transmutation domain? It is a strictly suboptimal race even in core, for almost everything except gimmick builds.

The only reason I could think of to play them (from an optimizer's perspective, when you can choose from anything else) is that  you want to get in an Elf only prestige class and all the other subraces are banned.

I am not sure what a "lesser LA race" would be. Tiefling is definitely not "lesser" with or without LA buyoff given that you get the outsider type and a good stat trade. Githyanki I probably overrated, but they at least get something unique. High elves get a bad stat trade and immunity to a first level spell.

Going to try to get Frostburn/Stormwrack/Sandstorm up sometime soon.

Samb

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Re: Races Handbook
« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2009, 01:00:53 AM »

I don't get where you are going with this. Race and class are linked.

If there was a hypothetical race in Tome of Magic that gave a +5 unnamed bonus to truename checks, +2 to all knowledge checks, and Extend Utterance as a bonus feat that would make it the superior option for a Truenamer, and pretty lackluster for everything else. You can't possibly compare that race to Human or Dwarf without taking into account that the Truenamer is one base class out of all of those available, is almost never played, and is completely broken to a point where it revolves around a single feat (Quicken utterance) to make it even close to viable. So that would fit into a Tier 4 or Tier 3 race (does something "well" but is pidgeonholed, and that something is lackluster).
To say that races and classes are linked is a meaningless statement.  What in DnD isn't linked to class?  To achieve a valid argument you need to compare the races on an individual basis, and use versatility as a "tie-breaker".

If a race that you made up could make a class that is normally unplayable into a decent PC then that races has done what not other race can do.  Any race can take 20 levels in wizard and be great, but only your hypothetical race can make truenamers. I'd say they are at least tier 3 or even tier 2 based on that fact alone.

Under your schema, as long as you have +stat and/or +skills that enhances magic/psionics/casting in general you are a better race is invalid because ANYONE can take those classes are be great.  Is this handbook on races or classes?  Because their are plenty of class rankings and plenty of wannabe class ranking.  Which one is this?  Or is this a race ranking?  That I would like to see but all I can see is "wizards rule and this race makes wizards better hence it must rule"

Can this race make this job better than the extra feat I get with humans?  Can this race do something in this class that will outshine a human of the same level and class?  You have no control to even compare which is superior.  Tier one should be reserved for the race that excels/decent in every class and always considered when making any class (ie humans) but the lower ones should not be lower just because they are "pigeon-holed" (I prefer "specialized").

KellKheraptis

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Re: Races Handbook
« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2009, 07:40:58 AM »
I disagree with a bunch of those ratings.   The one that bothers me the most is high elf, however.  Tier 5? really? With all the alternate class features, prestige classes, and other perks elves can get you rate them lower than a bunch of LA races that have no redeeming features?  Yes the other elf subraces are usually better, still, tier 3 or perhaps high in tier 4.

Why would you be a high elf Ranger/Paladin when you could be a Wood or Wild elf? Why be a High elf generalist wizard when you could be a Grey elf or just go for Strongheart Halfling/Dwarf/Human/Azurin and either specialize or simply pick up the Conjuration or Transmutation domain? It is a strictly suboptimal race even in core, for almost everything except gimmick builds.

The only reason I could think of to play them (from an optimizer's perspective, when you can choose from anything else) is that  you want to get in an Elf only prestige class and all the other subraces are banned.

I am not sure what a "lesser LA race" would be. Tiefling is definitely not "lesser" with or without LA buyoff given that you get the outsider type and a good stat trade. Githyanki I probably overrated, but they at least get something unique. High elves get a bad stat trade and immunity to a first level spell.

Going to try to get Frostburn/Stormwrack/Sandstorm up sometime soon.

All LA's and things being equal, my +Int Elf will hands down win initiative on average playing rocket tag with your Strongheart Halfling :)  The raw power of Natural Link alone makes even lowly high elf at least Tier 3.
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HCL

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Re: Races Handbook
« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2009, 11:00:28 AM »

All LA's and things being equal, my +Int Elf will hands down win initiative on average playing rocket tag with your Strongheart Halfling :)  The raw power of Natural Link alone makes even lowly high elf at least Tier 3.

You are clearly playing pathfinder or 4.0 (I thought everything in this section was assumed to be 3.5 related). High elves have +2 Dex -2 Con. Grey elves have that and +2 int -2 str. Sh halflings get +2 dex, -2 str, small size and a bonus feat.

So a SH halfling focused Transmuter or domain transmuter would have the same dex modifier and take Improved Initiative (or something more productive) as a bonus feat, then use one of the bonus Transmuter slots for Nerveskitter for a +9 initiative advantage, and no meaningful disadvantages compared to a High elf generalist with the sub levels.

Quote
If a race that you made up could make a class that is normally unplayable into a decent PC then that races has done what not other race can do.  Any race can take 20 levels in wizard and be great, but only your hypothetical race can make truenamers. I'd say they are at least tier 3 or even tier 2 based on that fact alone.

Even if that makes the truenamer even close to a playable class (barring extreme cheese) you need to keep in mind that you also have other races who aren't good for just one class but can do well in a whole group of classes.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2009, 11:03:10 AM by HCL »

snakeman830

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Re: Races Handbook
« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2009, 11:34:01 AM »
I think you should just drop trying to tie in classes (other than substitution levels and race-specific Prestige classes) and just go with the race and options available.  ANY race (other than Karsite*) can be a wizard.  Any race can likewise be a Fighter.  Doesn't mean they will be great in those roles, but they can do it.

If you look at just the racial options instead of how good a race is in a class, however, things get more fair.

Human is a Tier 1 race, hands down, because they are good at ANYHING.  They don't have any racial substitution levels and only a couple of feats to their name, but the skill points and bonus feat give a nice boost in power to anything.

*Karsites cannot cast spells, so although they could theoretically be a wizard, they would barely do any better than they would as a commoner.
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Re: Races Handbook
« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2009, 04:14:11 PM »
I think that something similiar to the method of rating PrCs based off typical class entries should be employed.  So while Dwarf makes a horrible Sorc he can be brilliant in his respective field (all non-Cha classes).
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snakeman830

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Re: Races Handbook
« Reply #30 on: October 27, 2009, 04:27:12 PM »
I think that something similiar to the method of rating PrCs based off typical class entries should be employed.  So while Dwarf makes a horrible Sorc he can be brilliant in his respective field (all non-Cha classes).
Actually, Dwarves can make pretty good Sorcerers if you have Races of Stone.  Their racial substitution levels rock!
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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Balmas

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Re: Races Handbook
« Reply #31 on: October 30, 2009, 12:58:07 AM »
May I make a suggestion? Instead of ranking classes on how well they'd make a wizard, why not rate them according to the class for which they were intended?

For example, the favored class of a goliath is barbarian. He has great strength, great constitution, and a better damage output than most other barbarians. Accordingly, he is a Tier 1 barbarian race.

High elves have wizard as a favored class. While the long age and bonus to dexterity is kind of nice, the hit to constitution hurts them bad. That makes them a tier 4-5 wizard race.

Grey elves, on the other hand, have all of the above with a +2 to intelligence. While the -2 to con still hurts, it's still bearable for that +2 to intelligence. Therefore, Grey elves are a tier 2 wizard race. (Tier 1 with the Faerie Mysteries Initiate feat.)

See how this works? You rate the races according to the class they were intended to play.
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snakeman830

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Re: Races Handbook
« Reply #32 on: October 30, 2009, 01:07:57 AM »
Or, to put it another way, rate each race by how well they do in their favored class. In ones with favored Class: Any, just rate them on their own merits, or rate them as a Bard or Factotum (since they do a little bit of everything anyway).
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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Re: Races Handbook
« Reply #33 on: October 30, 2009, 01:09:59 AM »
Perhaps it'd be easier to list classes, and then just have the best applicable races under those headers?

HCL

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Re: Races Handbook
« Reply #34 on: October 30, 2009, 01:10:22 AM »
I am trying to grade them overall. People are getting hung up the whole Tier 3 vs Tier 2 thing. It isn't really a substatant issue, but its an important distinction to make

Tier 1 is a very versatile race that is a great choice in almost all classes (human, raptoran, dwarf, etc.)
Tier 2 is slightly less versatile race that is either very good at just a couple very good roles (grey elf), or good at a large variety of things but slightly less so than a tier 1 (wild elf, halfling, goliath)
Tier 3  is slightly less versatile than tier 2, good in a couple roles but does not particularly excel in those roles (halforc, goblin)
Tier 4 is screwed into a particular group of characters (Orcs to melee, spellscales to charisma based classes) and is still not quite optimal in those roles (a human or dwarf barbarian and a human or raptoran sorcerer is still the better choice in most circumstances)
Tier 5 is strictly suboptimal compared to other races except for rare "extremely specialized" (gimmick) builds or odd DM houserules.

Its nonsensical to rate Raptorans as summoner clerics (which is what they were meant to do) compared to humans when they are better for Charger/melee build, or compare Gnomes to other Bard races (especially when all of the bard races in the game are just different kinds of gnomes)
« Last Edit: October 30, 2009, 01:15:07 AM by HCL »