Author Topic: 3.5 Rebuild Part 3  (Read 4139 times)

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bhu

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3.5 Rebuild Part 3
« on: October 24, 2009, 06:55:10 AM »
If you were remaking Clerics and Divine Casters, should they be generalists like they are now (i.e. access to all divine spells plus domains), have abilities specific to their deity (powers based on their deities domains only), or powers and abilities specific to the type of job they perform most (i.e exorcists will have abilities to stop possession/turn undead, healers will heal, evangelists can inspire or convert, inquisitors have divination abilities, war priests will have combat abilities).
« Last Edit: October 24, 2009, 10:07:26 AM by bhu »

veekie

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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Part 3
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2009, 07:08:13 AM »
Abilities locked to deities, while preferred, is not practical on a class design level, hence, focus by the tasks they perform instead, provided they can hybridise between these 'roles' without crippling functionality, to suit their particular deity. Domains are one way to do that, for example, reasonably broad deity/role intersection, as it has both an IC role(epitomise the concept of X), and a mechanical one(themed suites of abilities).
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bhu

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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Part 3
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2009, 08:53:29 AM »
Abilities locked to deities, while preferred, is not practical on a class design level, hence, focus by the tasks they perform instead, provided they can hybridise between these 'roles' without crippling functionality, to suit their particular deity. Domains are one way to do that, for example, reasonably broad deity/role intersection, as it has both an IC role(epitomise the concept of X), and a mechanical one(themed suites of abilities).

I think it could be done, I just think it would be a pain in the ass to do.

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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Part 3
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2009, 12:35:44 PM »
I think that maybe a combination of the first one and either of the others would work well.  You have a list of spells that any caster could take, and then a list added on taken from the deity or function of the class/character.
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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Part 3
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2009, 12:41:35 PM »
I'd like to see Paladins as generalists, while Clerics are hardwired to their deity's domains and functions.
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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Part 3
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2009, 01:31:49 PM »
I'd like them to be connected to the same rules as Arcane casters. If Arcane casters are specialists, Divine casters should be, too. If not, the same.
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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Part 3
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2009, 02:13:15 PM »
I think the "set spell list" plus Advanced Learning thing is really a good way to go for every caster, Arcane or Divine. You automatically get everything a caster of your type is expected to have to fill your role, and you get to choose a few extra spells to better define your role, fluff, and abilities to your own personal idea of the character.

Paladins, for instance, should have a short list of spells, and a few Advanced Learnings. Maybe 1 per spell level, or something (I think the rates in existing casters need to be sped up, but probably also that they need to lose some spells off their auto spells-known). Clerics might get a reasonably extensive list, based on a number of archetypes, and then 1 spell known each class level.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2009, 02:15:48 PM by Bauglir »
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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Part 3
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2009, 04:06:51 PM »
I voted the Deity choice, but there should be / are other options.

Druids are a generalist, relative to the "Domains" they have, and the deities/powers/philosophies they might worship.

Paladin + Adept spell advancement + Adept spell list + 1 domain + 1/week disease thingy as a power unit for other things.

bhu

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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Part 3
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2009, 10:00:29 PM »
I voted the Deity choice, but there should be / are other options.

Druids are a generalist, relative to the "Domains" they have, and the deities/powers/philosophies they might worship.

Paladin + Adept spell advancement + Adept spell list + 1 domain + 1/week disease thingy as a power unit for other things.

For this poll Im mostly concerned with deity worshippers.  Druidy stuff is coming :D

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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Part 3
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2009, 10:15:31 AM »
I'd say power specific to function, although function would be largely vary by deity.

I worked on a cleric version that still had a "Cleric" spell list, but it was much smaller.  Each domain had three spells per level.  The cleric's list of "spells known" was the Cleric list, and all of the spells off of their domain lists.  The end result was a larger number of spells known than the sorcerer, but a narrower list to draw from.
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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Part 3
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2009, 04:02:48 PM »
Yeah I'm feeling that, except for all that domain work.

Cleric A - has 2 domains, the healing domain, and 1 spell from the Cleric list per level, and semi-spontaneous
Cleric B - has the cleric list as normal, but just 1 domain not spontaneous

That kinda splits cleric in half, but doesn't do much for 9s madness.

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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Part 3
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2009, 10:44:42 AM »
I meant to vote specific to diety. I missed and now I'm one of the two who voted generalist.

Still I want to say, I'd like to see them have a general set of "cleric powers": healing/inflicting; Screwing around with undead somehow. Still wearing fullplate So it still feels 3.5 ish. I miss them only weilding Mace like weapons too... don't know why... I guess nostalgia???   :twitch
Everything else would be cool if gods gave you certain things.
Like say you got healing and turning? But you worship evil. So you get inflicting and Rebuking.
we could frankly give everybody both and thats it for the base of cleric. Basically warlock spelllikes as much as they want. Merry christmas.... stand by though.
But also give them 2 domains and all the spells they cast??? come from those domain lists.
Thats a tight control but good... Doing that the clerics primary fucntion can have something to do with positive/negative energy and they still cast spells but thier not all powerful, nor cloisterd.

(this is assuming something is done to make healing in combat a viable shtick)
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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Part 3
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2009, 12:50:15 PM »
you should be able to do it like the psion here - but they more or less are now.

Hallack

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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Part 3
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2009, 02:01:31 PM »
I voted the Deity choice, but there should be / are other options.

Druids are a generalist, relative to the "Domains" they have, and the deities/powers/philosophies they might worship.

Paladin + Adept spell advancement + Adept spell list + 1 domain + 1/week disease thingy as a power unit for other things.

For this poll Im mostly concerned with deity worshippers.  Druidy stuff is coming :D

Well, let's not leave out those that like to play clerics without a diety.

That said I voted for specialist by function though I'm not against generalist really. 

I do think a more limited spell list perhaps based on 'specialty' expanded via feats or advanced learning type stuff would work.
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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Part 3
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2009, 02:48:49 PM »
+`1 I forgot about those guys!
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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Part 3
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2009, 06:02:44 PM »
+`1 I forgot about those guys!

Hehe, I can't forget about em.  My shadowcraft cleric with his "powerful ugly creature" wife (Jane from Firefly quote) and his 11 kids, one more on the way, is one of them :)
« Last Edit: October 26, 2009, 06:05:12 PM by Hallack »
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veekie

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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Part 3
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2009, 03:33:41 AM »
Quote
Well, let's not leave out those that like to play clerics without a diety.
Well, Diety is a freely swappable term for whatever they believe in, no issue I can see there, if you split by domains(sides, if you're splitting by god, you'd have more headaches with pantheistic clerics(e.g. certain oriental tradition based ones), etc).
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bkdubs123

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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Part 3
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2009, 03:38:40 AM »
So... say there was a Nature domain with a granted power to... Turn/Rebuke Animals and Plants. Then say there was a "Beast" domain with a granted power similar to PHB2's Shapeshift ability. Is there now any reason for a Druid class?

Cleric: Nature and Beast domains + Spontaneous Domain Casting + Wild Cohort = Druid. No?

veekie

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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Part 3
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2009, 10:37:15 AM »
Maybe, depending on how centric you want to make the animal companion/shapeshifting aspects, they may be worth more attention than domains typically get.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

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Re: 3.5 Rebuild Part 3
« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2009, 09:14:12 PM »
Role.  While Druids are a little wonky because they pray to "Nature" I feel that function in the church would determine the way that cleric interacts.

Which is more similiar: Evangelist for Olidamera to Evangelist for Pelor, or Exorcist for Pelor to Faith Healer of Pelor?  I think the Evangelists are more similiar as they both have the same role.
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