Author Topic: Warhorses are broken!  (Read 15078 times)

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bearsarebrown

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Re: Warhorses are broken!
« Reply #80 on: October 29, 2009, 02:01:19 PM »
Who was talking about imps?

Alright, there are two different arguments. Non-intelligent learning maneuvers, and non-humanoids learning maneuvers. Non-intelligent, I agree with you kind of, it depends a lot on the DM and stuff because it's not really clear. That's a different argument which very quickly turns RAI vs RAW.

But non-humanoids? 'Blade Magic' was developed by just... training really hard. Can a dragon not do that? If so, why not?

Brainpiercing

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Re: Warhorses are broken!
« Reply #81 on: October 29, 2009, 02:02:49 PM »
[spoiler]http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cut

1.    to penetrate with or as if with a sharp-edged instrument or object:
14.    to dilute or adulterate (a drug) by mixing it with other substances.

Is one of those definitions wrong? Nope. They're both correct. Read Brainpiercing's post. Some words evolve. Some words mean lots of different things.[/spoiler]

You've still yet to respond to IUS and the excellent point of cat's prowling.
One, since imps are huminiod of shape (Even though they do not have the huminiod type) they can learn stances.

the cat's prowling is an instinutual means of movement that has been passed down since before the great cats cut their niche into the gaiaology. It's not a learned behaivor pattern. It's like a drunk in what is in Tai Kwan Do called  a walking stance. He may be in it, and he might be able to use it's versitility, but he has know idea the proper ways to respond to a haymaker(out step from foe's center, inside outside block to a monkey grip, palm strike 1 inch up from the elbow), or any of the sudalties of the stance.
It's quite impossible for you to say with certainty that it is an evolved ability. I could say it is learned at a young age. Cats reared in captivity have a hard time hunting, so there's my proof. Also, even if it were evolved that would not invalidate my argument. An animal can take a stance in "combat" or for hunting, or whatever. They do it to scare rivals. These are all stances, they serve a purpose by a specific posture and course of action.
In any case, flavour is mutable. What might be an Island of Blades for martial artists might be a Sharp Lookout and Threatening Claw for an animal, and that's entirely symbolical, too, because the critter hardly thinks in terms of names. Still, effectively we arrive at the gold standard of "Different name, same effect." Perfect.

Vinom

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Re: Warhorses are broken!
« Reply #82 on: October 29, 2009, 02:05:44 PM »
[spoiler]http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cut

1.    to penetrate with or as if with a sharp-edged instrument or object:
14.    to dilute or adulterate (a drug) by mixing it with other substances.

Is one of those definitions wrong? Nope. They're both correct. Read Brainpiercing's post. Some words evolve. Some words mean lots of different things.[/spoiler]

You've still yet to respond to IUS and the excellent point of cat's prowling.
One, since imps are huminiod of shape (Even though they do not have the huminiod type) they can learn stances.

the cat's prowling is an instinutual means of movement that has been passed down since before the great cats cut their niche into the gaiaology. It's not a learned behaivor pattern. It's like a drunk in what is in Tai Kwan Do called  a walking stance. He may be in it, and he might be able to use it's versitility, but he has know idea the proper ways to respond to a haymaker(out step from foe's center, inside outside block to a monkey grip, palm strike 1 inch up from the elbow), or any of the sudalties of the stance.
It's quite impossible for you to say with certainty that it is an evolved ability. I could say it is learned at a young age. Cats reared in captivity have a hard time hunting, so there's my proof. Also, even if it were evolved that would not invalidate my argument. An animal can take a stance in "combat" or for hunting, or whatever. They do it to scare rivals. These are all stances, they serve a purpose by a specific posture and course of action.
In any case, flavour is mutable. What might be an Island of Blades for martial artists might be a Sharp Lookout and Threatening Claw for an animal, and that's entirely symbolical, too, because the critter hardly thinks in terms of names. Still, effectively we arrive at the gold standard of "Different name, same effect." Perfect.
Wow... It's like talking into a brick wall that thinks you agree with it.
A player once asked me if there was any way to make a Tarrasque more evil... 3 sessions later he was stoned with D20s as the PC led an exidus out of the path of a Dire Tarrasque of Legendary Wonder.

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Hallack

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Re: Warhorses are broken!
« Reply #83 on: October 29, 2009, 02:10:57 PM »

One, since imps are huminiod of shape (Even though they do not have the huminiod type) they can learn stances.


Wow, this is a lot of discussion about non-bipedal (which is what it comes down to on one side of the discussion) and non (or less) intelligent use of Maneuvers and Stances.

Bottom line is that by the rules creatures with odd shapes can learn and use Maneuvers and Stances, can be via class levels or feat use.

Some stances and maneuvers may indeed seem odd in the repertoire of a dog (or other creatures) but the rules allow for it.  As I recall there is not even an intelligence requirement for Maneuvers and Stances.

If however a DM does not want riding dogs to be in the Martial Spirit stance or biting with flaming jaws from a Desert Wind boost that is certainly within the realm of DM control to limit and house rule.

What we are speaking of here is RAW vs "How I think it should work".  

RAW it works and is allowed.  It is also quite reasonable for a DM to limit such combinations and use if he wants as well.
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altpersona

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Re: Warhorses are broken!
« Reply #84 on: October 29, 2009, 02:14:17 PM »
as far as i recall (havnt double checked) a giant snake >3 hd could have a "stance" (no legs (lt dan)) and manuvers..

i need to dig out my tob to find the best ones for a snake.
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Vinom

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Re: Warhorses are broken!
« Reply #85 on: October 29, 2009, 05:23:42 PM »
Pie Jesu Domine, dona eis requiem *WHACK*
Pie Jesu Domine, dona eis requiem *WHACK*
Pie Jesu Domine, dona eis requiem sempiternam *WHACK*
A player once asked me if there was any way to make a Tarrasque more evil... 3 sessions later he was stoned with D20s as the PC led an exidus out of the path of a Dire Tarrasque of Legendary Wonder.

Quote from:  Sarda the Sage
You're a quick thinker and spiteful, I can respect that. You won't be killed, Bikke

Never trust a smiling laughing chuckling grinning emotionless drunk, you know what Never Trust a DM!

78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature

Pulling off Pun-pun in 26 rounds

N00bs, because all gamers have to start somewhere

"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from Science!"

Remember, Mobs are at least as stupid as their dumbest member.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Warhorses are broken!
« Reply #86 on: October 29, 2009, 05:26:50 PM »
Wow... It's like talking into a brick wall that thinks you agree with it.
This is not the first time that you've made me wish there was an ignore function on this board.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Vinom

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Re: Warhorses are broken!
« Reply #87 on: October 30, 2009, 01:13:39 AM »
Wow... It's like talking into a brick wall that thinks you agree with it.
This is not the first time that you've made me wish there was an ignore function on this board.
Do you object to my assesment of the conversation, or quoting monty python?
A player once asked me if there was any way to make a Tarrasque more evil... 3 sessions later he was stoned with D20s as the PC led an exidus out of the path of a Dire Tarrasque of Legendary Wonder.

Quote from:  Sarda the Sage
You're a quick thinker and spiteful, I can respect that. You won't be killed, Bikke

Never trust a smiling laughing chuckling grinning emotionless drunk, you know what Never Trust a DM!

78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature

Pulling off Pun-pun in 26 rounds

N00bs, because all gamers have to start somewhere

"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from Science!"

Remember, Mobs are at least as stupid as their dumbest member.

Emy

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Re: Warhorses are broken!
« Reply #88 on: October 30, 2009, 03:32:28 AM »
Wow... It's like talking into a brick wall that thinks you agree with it.
This is not the first time that you've made me wish there was an ignore function on this board.
Do you object to my assesment of the conversation, or quoting monty python?

Personally, I find the poor quality of your posting to be objectionable.

RAW it works. RAI it works. According to your "martial arts common sense" house rule, it doesn't work. Have you looked near the top of the page recently? This board is Brilliant Gameologists Forum > Min/Max > Min/Max It!. It's a bit biased towards RAW.

It's like if I were to say that Titanic creatures (or monstrous spiders) don't work in D&D, because according to common sense as a DM and a student of biology, they shouldn't be able to even support their own weight... and if I were to then assert that the way I apply my knowledge of real life to the game is the way the game works normally.

Don't confuse the game that you DM with the standard rules that we're talking about.

To summarize:




To continue with the thread's original purpose (not quote pyramids or kung-fu pandas), I'd like to note that the OP's Incarnate can easily turn the party into a cavalry group. Well, he requires a little help if you want them to be Warbeasts. He certainly can't beat Elbis the King of Roc in backstory animal-rearing, but he can do a surprising amount of good with very little investment.

12 Cha
5 ranks
Riding Bracers with 1 essentia invested (+6 insight to Ride/Handle Animal)
Animal Trainer's Kit (50gp, +2 circumstance to Handle Animal)

Automatically succeeds at rearing 9HD animals while taking 10. Give the party some Smilodon mounts*.

If the other party members are willing to each take 1 rank of Handle Animal and Aid Another on the check to apply the template, the Incarnate can automatically succeed on turning them into Warbeasts, too.

*I realize they may not be the best mounts available, but they are totally metal.**

**Polar Bears with Starmetal [Complete Arcane] full plate are also acceptable.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2009, 03:36:53 AM by Emy »

Operation Shoestring

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Re: Warhorses are broken!
« Reply #89 on: October 30, 2009, 04:05:54 AM »

**Polar Bears with Starmetal [Complete Arcane] full plate are also acceptable.

Personally, if I'm going to make an armorer bear, it's Totemist/(shapeshifting class) all the way.

But yeah, animal training is both fun and surprisingly viable at midlevels.

Brainpiercing

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Re: Warhorses are broken!
« Reply #90 on: October 30, 2009, 07:59:10 AM »

**Polar Bears with Starmetal [Complete Arcane] full plate are also acceptable.

Personally, if I'm going to make an armorer bear, it's Totemist/(shapeshifting class) all the way.

But yeah, animal training is both fun and surprisingly viable at midlevels.
Mid? It's level 2 we're talking about. Now I know that any DM I were to try that on would suddenly cut down all downtime....but yeah, it IS damn viable.

There is a question: A reared trained, or even bought animal is neither a class feature nor a cohort, etc, so it SHOULD appear on the XP calculation in the end. If that party of level 2s with Warbeast X mounts encounter a group of CR 2 Orcs without said mounts, not much in the way of XP will come of that.... But how do you put them down? With their CR? With their HD?
Going with CR, the participation of four CR4 mounts would at least cut XP gain in half on the resulting EL6 encounter. Luckily, the presence of a CR9 or so Warbeast Dire Tiger won't change the XP situation for the players any further.
Also, those animals should gain XP, but what will they do with it? Gain HD? If that happens, then it's wise to take a Dire Animal, it might turn humongous eventually.

Actually I have to say, this is a very noob and (someone is going to have me for this) girl friendly thing to integrate into a group. Because if the pet wins the fight, most noobs won't complain, and EVERYONE likes pets, now don't we..... :puppy

Emy

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Re: Warhorses are broken!
« Reply #91 on: October 30, 2009, 08:29:38 AM »
I don't think they get XP, because they don't have an effective character level.

I could be wrong, though.

girl friendly thing to integrate into a group

It's guy friendly too. BIG MEAN DOGS. BEAR CAVALRY. LION TOTEM BARBARIAN RIDING ON HIS PET DIRE LION WHILE LOPPING OFF HEADS WITH A GREATAXE
« Last Edit: October 30, 2009, 08:48:43 AM by Emy »

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Warhorses are broken!
« Reply #92 on: October 30, 2009, 12:34:24 PM »
Wow... It's like talking into a brick wall that thinks you agree with it.
This is not the first time that you've made me wish there was an ignore function on this board.
Do you object to my assesment of the conversation, or quoting monty python?
That's a monty python quote? I retract my statement and apologize profusely. I'll go sit in the comfy chair now to do penance.

Also, the value of this thread has increased 1000 fold from the presence of the smiley that Emy linked to. That is pure awesomeness, and I'd been regretting not saving a link to it since I first saw LogicNinja use it on 339.  :lol
« Last Edit: October 30, 2009, 12:37:12 PM by PhaedrusXY »
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Akalsaris

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Re: Warhorses are broken!
« Reply #93 on: October 30, 2009, 03:46:34 PM »
The first time I saw that smiley was Warmages vs. sorcerers if I recall :D  Though this time it seemed a little over-the-top for poor Vinom...I agree with him that it doesn't make sense for some monsters to be martial initiates, even if the rules allow it both RAW and probably RAI.  Sort of like how you can take Spell Focus without being able to cast spells - it's just a little weird.  I also think it's weird that wolves can't take Improved Trip because it needs Expertise, for that matter.

Kuroimaken

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Re: Warhorses are broken!
« Reply #94 on: October 30, 2009, 04:53:11 PM »
To bury the argument that a nonhumanoid cannot take martial study, assume stances and whatnot, remember... the ninja dog.

Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


Kal Zakath

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Re: Warhorses are broken!
« Reply #95 on: October 30, 2009, 07:05:06 PM »
Kuroimaken, then Nin-dog was my bane in those games. that and the exploding shuiken.

Operation Shoestring

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Re: Warhorses are broken!
« Reply #96 on: October 30, 2009, 08:08:11 PM »

**Polar Bears with Starmetal [Complete Arcane] full plate are also acceptable.

Personally, if I'm going to make an armorer bear, it's Totemist/(shapeshifting class) all the way.

But yeah, animal training is both fun and surprisingly viable at midlevels.
Mid? It's level 2 we're talking about. Now I know that any DM I were to try that on would suddenly cut down all downtime....but yeah, it IS damn viable.

Animal buddies are outright borderline broken at level 2.  At mid level's they're still viable, which is surprising, given how little they cost.

That's what i was trying to say
« Last Edit: October 30, 2009, 08:19:09 PM by Operation Shoestring »

Kuroimaken

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Re: Warhorses are broken!
« Reply #97 on: October 30, 2009, 09:39:39 PM »
Kuroimaken, then Nin-dog was my bane in those games. that and the exploding shuiken.

I haven't actually gotten myself Ninja Gaiden yet, so I can't say I relate. They used to be a massive pain in the ass in the PS2 Shinobi game, though.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!