Author Topic: Getting Prepared Casters to...prepare.  (Read 5411 times)

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kurashu

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Getting Prepared Casters to...prepare.
« on: October 18, 2009, 11:20:45 PM »
I'm having some trouble getting my prepared casters -- namely, a cleric and druid -- to prepare their spells. My biggest problem is that they're convinced that they need to pick all new spells each time we play and don't prepare a spell list before hand -- as I've asked them to do. They're also convinced they have to prepare new spell cards -- index cards I distributed to the players to write their spells, maneuvers, feats, special abilities, et cetera on -- every time as well. Obviously, this pushes back the game and causes delays.

Any suggestions.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Getting Prepared Casters to...prepare.
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2009, 11:32:19 PM »
Get new players? That sounds straight-up retarded. :P

If that's not an option ( :smirk ), just tell them that they can't cast any spells that they don't have listed as prepared before they show up for the game. And stick to your guns.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

veekie

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Re: Getting Prepared Casters to...prepare.
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2009, 01:37:45 AM »
Harsh, but they'd learn fast, I concur.
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officeronin

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Re: Getting Prepared Casters to...prepare.
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2009, 07:24:47 PM »
It's multiple people and not just one -- seems like there is more to it than just an idiot.  Are you giving them the backstory (or at least theme) prior to the game session? 

If the adventure is "Go to the wizard's dungeon and kill him and his minions", it will be a different spell selection than if the adventure is "Travel through the wilderness, guarding this caravan". 

Have them set up standard spell selections like, "I prep this list if I am travelling, and this list if I am in town".  Then use that list when the adventure pops up without warning.  (Doing stuff in town -- and the zombie attack!)

Tough to prepare if you don't have any information...

Bloody Initiate

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Re: Getting Prepared Casters to...prepare.
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2009, 10:01:49 PM »
Call them idiots all you like, but I'd argue the problem is that preparing spells every day is an horrible mechanic that was practically designed to slow the game down. I've hated that system since before D&D used d20s. "Spellbooks" and "Morning Prayer/Meditation" and "forget it as soon as you do it" are all extremely stupid ideas that never should have seen print.

However, if your players chose to play Preparation casters then it IS a problem with them. There's no perfect solution and one answer won't do it.

I'd suggest some or all of the following:

1. Tell them to get a "default" list together of spells they would prepare every day (Because prepared casters don't necessarily change which spells they prepared every day), that way when they vary from it they only change a few spells not the whole list. Work with them on this "default" list so that they'll be strong casters most days.

2. Keep a copy of the necessary source books for their spells on hand. Note cards are nice, but a lot of time it's just easier to have the book open.

3. Encourage experienced players to take on complex classes (Like prepared casters) and new players to avoid them

4. Have patience. It IS a miserably stupid mechanic and they rightfully did away with it in 4e. It will NEVER work well because it was ALWAYS bad. However flexibility is hard to put on paper and that means prepared casters will always be overly complex and slow the game down.

5. Remind them in-game whenever there's downtime or their characters aren't doing anything that now would be a good time to think about what spells they want to prepare tomorrow. For awhile it will be a lot of work on you but either they'll pick up the habit or you should suggest someone else play the prepared casters
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kurashu

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Re: Getting Prepared Casters to...prepare.
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2009, 01:10:25 AM »
I've asked for a basic list, I thought the note cards would be great for the simple spells (everyone is level 2 going on 3) so nothing like Polymorph or even Alter Self where the rules have to be consulted is in play -- it's just basic stuff like Cure Light Wounds and Faerie Fire. I think the Archivist has Restortation -- but he's pretty good about making a list and letting me see.

But I don't know what to do. Even when they do prepare it's making brand new cards every time when the game is starting. "I forgot." or "Don't we get NEW spells every day?" -- To which my reply was "Yes, but you don't have to make new cards. Some spells have staying power."

And it's not like they don't know what going on -- they're right in the middle of The Sunless Citadel. Goblins, Twigblights, some undead and a big boss battle that I've warned them about (I thought about changing Belak to a totemist, but then I got lazy after work and dramabullshit).

So, I don't know.

Bloody Initiate

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Re: Getting Prepared Casters to...prepare.
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2009, 02:33:30 AM »
I recently was playing a gestalt campaign (Lvl 11) and every player had a massive stack of index cards because every character has tons of special abilities, caster or not. Our DM kept all of our character sheets as well as our index cards (Each stack wrapped with rubber band) in a folder designated for that campaign. We didn't take our sheets home with us (I still don't understand why people do that), they stayed at the house in which we played in the care of our DM.

It's a moderate level of organization that requires some basic school supplies but is otherwise not that expensive or difficult to maintain. Perhaps you might like to adapt this? Again, I never really understood players who want to take their character sheet home after every session and I find those players often cause setbacks, so why not just keep their sheets and cards?
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kurashu

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Re: Getting Prepared Casters to...prepare.
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2009, 02:34:24 PM »
That's exactly what I do, and anyone who comes over is free to look at their character sheet, look over my books, write up spell cards or whatever. The one time the druid player did that she got half way through a spell card and then began watching a movie. So I don't know.

And because of dramabullshit the relationship between me and the druid & cleric is already stressed; in fact, the relationship my girlfriend (playing a duskblade) and my friend (sorcerer) and I all share with the rest of the party (sans the archivist because that guy is on perma-mellow, probably from all the weed he's smoked over the years) is stressed because of it. So, I don't want to do anything draconian that's going to bust the game wide open and cause even more dramabullshit -- because D&D is about fun and we all have fun when we play (except for the irksome non-preparing part that annoys me).

Bloody Initiate

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Re: Getting Prepared Casters to...prepare.
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2009, 02:56:53 PM »
Recommend:

TPK

Don't let those players play prepared casters again (but instead of "disallowing" or "prohibiting" it make it appear as a recommendation).

Some players simply do not play certain character types well. For example, I can't stand prepared casters or champions of any alignment. There's no reason to get angry about it, it's a difference in taste and style that's as natural as the color of your eyes or hair.
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Getting Prepared Casters to...prepare.
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2009, 03:04:18 PM »
Again, I never really understood players who want to take their character sheet home after every session and I find those players often cause setbacks, so why not just keep their sheets and cards?
This sounds like it would cause more problems than it solves. So I have to go to the DMs house to even see my character sheet? No wonder they don't prepare before the game. You expect them to just remember what spells prepared they had written down, what magic items they meant to buy in downtime, how much money their character has, etc?
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Bloody Initiate

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Re: Getting Prepared Casters to...prepare.
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2009, 03:37:43 PM »
Again, I never really understood players who want to take their character sheet home after every session and I find those players often cause setbacks, so why not just keep their sheets and cards?
This sounds like it would cause more problems than it solves. So I have to go to the DMs house to even see my character sheet? No wonder they don't prepare before the game. You expect them to just remember what spells prepared they had written down, what magic items they meant to buy in downtime, how much money their character has, etc?

No, I expect them to leave the game with the group.

What use is knowing what spells you have prepared and how much money you have if you're not playing? "Preparing before the game" can be done by a competent player inside of a minute or two. Prepared casters, as I said, is a TERRIBLE mechanic that new or inexperienced players should not be required to figure out. You have to know the spells and their capabilities and then you have to know your capabilities and plan your game out instead of simply responding, which is how a new player plays (The simply responding part)

Disclaimer: If something I say sounds unreasonable, you should know that I'm accustomed to playing low-level games almost exclusively and my groups are of mixed competence (From the person who can easily create powerful and universally competent builds to the person who has yet to figure out what base attack bonus is but "knows it's important"). Most of our players couldn't handle preparing their spells and the few that could don't want to play that type of character (because playing that type of character sucks)
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Alastar

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Re: Getting Prepared Casters to...prepare.
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2009, 03:40:56 PM »
Hmmm, my first 3.x character was a wizard, granted i only played him till level 4, and i had no problems picking my spells...

The mechanic is pretty easy to understand, and I don't believe they have a problem with mechanics, simply a problem with pre-game prep, something much more common.

Now if you have a problem with vancian spellcasting that's ok, just don't blame everything on it like a scapegoat...

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Getting Prepared Casters to...prepare.
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2009, 03:54:58 PM »
What use is knowing what spells you have prepared and how much money you have if you're not playing? "Preparing before the game" can be done by a competent player inside of a minute or two.
No, it can't. I can assure you that I am a competent player, and I can spend many hours pouring over books and mulling over things preparing for a game. Yeah, at low levels it can be fairly quick if you're not playing a Vancian caster. But like it or not, Vancian casters are a core part of the game. And they do have to prepare spells ahead of time. And for classes like clerics and druids, who can pick any spell on their list from the dozens and dozens of splat books, yeah it can take some time. A LOT more than "a couple of minutes".


Quote
Disclaimer: If something I say sounds unreasonable, you should know that I'm accustomed to playing low-level games almost exclusively and my groups are of mixed competence (From the person who can easily create powerful and universally competent builds to the person who has yet to figure out what base attack bonus is but "knows it's important"). Most of our players couldn't handle preparing their spells and the few that could don't want to play that type of character (because playing that type of character sucks)
I've played games from 1st to 30th levels, and played off and on for over 20 years under several editions. I like playing clerics and wizards most, and I certainly like to work on my character between games. It always irritates the crap out of me when the DM insists on keeping the character sheets. If he doesn't trust me enough to not cheat, he shouldn't even be gaming with me. It's my freakin' character sheet, not his. I understand it if a player has a hard time remembering to bring their sheet, and wants to leave it with the DM. But it sure as hell shouldn't be a requirement.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Bloody Initiate

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Re: Getting Prepared Casters to...prepare.
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2009, 04:10:24 PM »
Hmmm, my first 3.x character was a wizard, granted i only played him till level 4, and i had no problems picking my spells...

The mechanic is pretty easy to understand, and I don't believe they have a problem with mechanics, simply a problem with pre-game prep, something much more common.

Now if you have a problem with vancian spellcasting that's ok, just don't blame everything on it like a scapegoat...

I do have a problem with vancian spellcasting, as may or may not be obivous from my previous posts.

I also will blame a lot on it, if not everything. It's an awful system for a game, as I've said in previous posts. Players should not be given "homework" just because they made the mistake of playing the party's wizard or cleric.

The mechanic IS easy to understand (Your character, who is apparently brilliant, forgets everything useful about himself every day and must spend an hour reading his favorite book every morning or he's little more than a squishy liability), but the process is neither easy to understand nor undertake. If you picked up quickly, congratulations, you're in the gifted minority.

For most new or inexperienced players, it's hard. You MUST know your available spells and you MUST know how your spells known/per day/metamagic'd/spell levels work and on top of all that (which is arguably the easy part) you have to plan very specifically what you're preparing that day.

Some people (like Phaedrus apparently) are fascinated and attracted to that complexity, which is great. But like I said, it's not everyone's style.

As for taking sheets home vs. the DM keeping them Phaedrus, it's never about cheating in my group but about simplicity. People are not prohibited from taking their character sheets home. The characters who need a little extra preparation (i.e. prepared casters) tend to focus on powerful and universally effective spell selection as well as making feat and class selection that simplifies the process.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2009, 04:13:29 PM by Bloody Initiate »
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Alastar

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Re: Getting Prepared Casters to...prepare.
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2009, 04:23:47 PM »
So... you like gimping your prepared casters?  a cleric druid or wizard's pwoer comes from his versatility.  If you have only ONE spell selection, you're losing so much of your character's potential it makes me want to weep.  On archivists and wizards i will often purchase spells that i might never need, just in case, and put them on a predefined spell selection.

For exemple, last game with my archivist, we were running after some thieves, and they had some advance on us, i got the party to stop long enough for me to purchase some scrolls.  I bought a longstrider scroll, and a wind at back scroll.  We then quickly caught up with said thieves, although they finally eluded us (we'll get them yet).

But now, i have longstrider and wind at back for whenever we need to travel fast, until we get teleport :).


And if you don't like the vancian spellcasting that much:
1- why are you commenting here like a WOTC salesman?
2- why are you still playing 3.5?

I think these whole boards are filled with people like phaedrusXY and me, who are mainl drawned by the complexity of it all, and thrive in such complex bookchecking.

Remember, homeworks are there to make you learn, and so is preparing your sheet in advance :)  a lot of my D&D book searching experience is helping me today in my university studies, so it's never a bad thing :)

Bloody Initiate

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Re: Getting Prepared Casters to...prepare.
« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2009, 04:40:42 PM »
So... you like gimping your prepared casters?  a cleric druid or wizard's pwoer comes from his versatility.  If you have only ONE spell selection, you're losing so much of your character's potential it makes me want to weep.  On archivists and wizards i will often purchase spells that i might never need, just in case, and put them on a predefined spell selection.

For exemple, last game with my archivist, we were running after some thieves, and they had some advance on us, i got the party to stop long enough for me to purchase some scrolls.  I bought a longstrider scroll, and a wind at back scroll.  We then quickly caught up with said thieves, although they finally eluded us (we'll get them yet).

But now, i have longstrider and wind at back for whenever we need to travel fast, until we get teleport :).


And if you don't like the vancian spellcasting that much:
1- why are you commenting here like a WOTC salesman?
2- why are you still playing 3.5?

I think these whole boards are filled with people like phaedrusXY and me, who are mainl drawned by the complexity of it all, and thrive in such complex bookchecking.

Remember, homeworks are there to make you learn, and so is preparing your sheet in advance :)  a lot of my D&D book searching experience is helping me today in my university studies, so it's never a bad thing :)

Perhaps you misread... everything in my post.

First off, I'm a player in the games I reference, not the GM. So even if I DID want to gimp the spellcasters (which makes no sense, so your accusation confuses the hell out of me) I couldn't.

I already knew that versatility was the advantage of prepared casters, and I have no problem with that. I've just hated D&D's casting system since D&D came out because of that spellbook nonsense. Mechanically speaking, the preparation system is weak, like it or not. Argue all you like, but good luck winning when the people who publish the game changed the system in their latest edition (which suggests the old system sucked for some reason). There are a dozen other ways to create flexibility (Some of which were presented in later books).

When I said
Quote
The characters who need a little extra preparation (i.e. prepared casters) tend to focus on powerful and universally effective spell selection as well as making feat and class selection that simplifies the process.
I was referring to the choices my fellow players make not anything forced on them by the GM. Try your hardest to make me a villain, read my posts any way you like, but it won't make them mean what you want them to.

And to answer your questions:
Quote
1- why are you commenting here like a WOTC salesman?
2- why are you still playing 3.5?

1. I'm commenting here because I like the site and like you and Phaedrus I'm fascinated by complexity. I just like different aspects of the system than your do, big deal. As for the unusual and out-of-place "WOTC salesman" comparison, fyi I'm an unemployed student and if it sounds to you like I have an agenda maybe you're paranoid. I do have opinions and ideas, just like everyone else, and if I feel like posting them on the internet I'm going to.

The guy who started this thread asked for help and I tried to give it to him while also attempting to explain his group's problems in a comprehensible light (Namely that the vancian system sucks and causes problems BECAUSE it sucks).

2. Because there are other classes and ways to play the game than wizard or cleric? Shocking I know, try not to have a heart attack, but it's true. Btw, I dipped cleric on my latest character.

Also, I hate homework and always will. However that's not up for debate (and it really shouldn't be)
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Alastar

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Re: Getting Prepared Casters to...prepare.
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2009, 05:00:18 PM »
Well, what i'm telling you is that you're vilifying a perfectly decent system.  And blaming something player related (taking some 15 minutes to prepare spell selection adequately) on a whole system.  If no one is going to put any effort in their character, then it should be board games night, nt D&D night.

And to your other point ( i admit i read posts hastily during the day, so i may not answer everything, or coherently, since i'm posting from work)  I'll say this:

4th ed sucks.  The fact that wizards did ANYTHING in 4th ed is irrelevant to any systems comparison.  You'll notice that on this site, the 4th ed part is pretty much dead, because it is a dead system, overly tight in fear of ''abuse'' where everything is similar, and no matter what you do your actions sum up to : i deal xdice+related stat damage and maybe have an irrelevant effect added to this.

That's when you play the game as intended.  Then with a LITTLE though process, you can break the game so hard the CEO of hasbro has sudden back pain from it.

So, to quote your arguments as you so eloquently put it: vancian spellcasting is a pretty good way to do things, and there is no way you can say anything about it differently because it just is (this is not a true statement btw, just my opinion, but you see how bad this kind of argument sounds when put the other way around?)

Bloody Initiate

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Re: Getting Prepared Casters to...prepare.
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2009, 05:28:17 PM »
I knew how bad the argument sounded and I didn't care. Your post and the attitude I got from it didn't merit much better in my mind. Sorry if I repaid an unfriendly post with one of my own.

TBH I have barely played any 4e, but I definitely prefer a wizard who can believably make it through his first few levels without being a burden to the group. I'm not arguing for 4e, I just hate the lopsidednes of "You're going to suck for a long time, but I promise one day you'll be the most powerful dude ever". That's not really what we're discussing, I just wanted you to understand my perspective on 4e.

My problem with Vancian spellcasting is that it's level of complexity differs wildly from most other mechanics in 3.5. It really isn't for beginnners, and even advanced players might not like it. This is me speaking from experience not opinion. I haven't seen a beginner pick it up quickly and use it easily, and I know a lot of advanced players who don't play prepared casters because the process of preparing spells decreases their fun. As I said, if it's not the player's style, they're not going to like it and they're probably not going to play it well. That's the only point I ever wanted to make.

Yes I hate the vancian spellcasting system. Yes I think it sucks really hard. I would love to be convinced otherwise, but for now I treat it as a necessary evil in a game I love. If you want to keep arguing about it (with civility), I'd be happy to engage you elsewhere, but the merits and failings of vancian spellcasting were not the original subject of this thread.

The OP wanted help getting his players to prepare their spells, I suggested that the players aren't the type of people who should be playing prepared casters or that they need to streamline their methods (Such as preparing three or four default "prepared spells" lists that they use in different environments and changing only a spell or two per day, if any at all. They maintain the ability to pick all new spells every day, but doing so is unnecessary since you'll prepare a lot of the same spells every day.).

If they won't do either, then they need to play different kinds of characters.
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Alastar

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Re: Getting Prepared Casters to...prepare.
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2009, 05:30:27 PM »
Then we agree on what the OP needs :)

Though we disagree on the vancian spell mechanic, but i think we can both agree to disagree then :)

sorry if i sounded mean.

officeronin

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Re: Getting Prepared Casters to...prepare.
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2009, 05:53:48 PM »
My favorite part of the game is the homework required for a vancian caster.  I know that is not the case for many, but the fact that this game supports nerds who like to curl up with a cup of coffee and a favorite splatbook of spell descriptions on a cold winter's night is a primary reason I like to play it.  In fact, the game rewards it, as a wizard who does not do their homework is tier 3 (a sorcerer with fewer castings and less flexibility -- and feats are somewhat balanced by the need to protect a spellbook).  If you don't want to do the homework, select a different class.

I echo Phaedrus' point about character sheets -- you cannot expect people to do their homework prior to the game if they don't have the materials to do so.  If you are the only one with the books, let them take those cards home, too.