Author Topic: Archmage dip worth the requirements?  (Read 8167 times)

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Maat_Mons

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Re: Archmage dip worth the requirements?
« Reply #40 on: October 22, 2009, 12:29:36 PM »

you can drop the AMF after raising a Forcecage


Wall of force is immune to antimagic field, but force cage doesn't list that as an inherited property.  I looked into this after that OoTS comic.  I couldn't find a reason antimagic field wouldn't suppress a force cage. 


By "defending" I mean clearing up the issue that someone thought you had to remain in the maw in order for it to do any damage to you. It deals damage the first round at the very least, which is CL, same as wings. If you read my post more thoroughly you would discover that I said I would only use it when it WAS necessary, if I even had it. My only point was that it IS a better spell at dealing damage than wings of flurry, and you cant argue that.


I'm the only one who mentioned remaining in maw of chaos and I only said it wouldn't deal damage on multiple rounds, not that it wouldn't deal damage on one round.  I also never said maw of chaos wasn't better than wings of flurry, just that it's not enough of an improvement that I'd use a 9th level spell known for it. 

Azrael

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Re: Archmage dip worth the requirements?
« Reply #41 on: October 22, 2009, 06:03:13 PM »
Actually, so long as I'm not flatfooted (my Ultimate Mage build isn't, via Legacy Champion+Legacy Item with cunning), I can cast an immediate action spell in response to your AMF.  Further, the odds of you getting it off in the first place without dealing with two spells in the face minimum (two readied, one in reserve in the form of immediate standard) with my Initiative mod are nil.  Even butt naked, you're looking at +12+Dex on the UM, and +12+Dex+Int on my Swiftblade.  And ironically, the second part of it I use as a mage-killer.  Spell Matrix firing Sanctum Orbs of Force as a swift action, rod-empowered or maximized as they fire.  45 dice of force usually fries most things, and even if it doesn't, I still have two standard actions and a move action available to use.  Given the nature of said UM, that's 1d20+40 to beat your SR, and assuming you survived the tri-nuke, you're either getting a Holy Word, or if my persistent status (whatever the enemy version of it is) notices you're A)not protected from death magic and B)below 90 hp, you'll get a Power Word Kill and die automatically, allowing me to either blow the weave to buff against your cronies and cast a BC (standard action), or blow the weave and teleport out, to scry the corpse later and salvage the goodies.  AMF works best when it can be dropped on an already committed opponent, from a distance.  Arcane Archer, as pointed out to me by Doc Rock, is my favored method, as that's 100% not gonna land on you, and can shut down an enemy caster while you do whatever you need to do.  Further, it can be done within a Time Stop, meaning you can drop the AMF after raising a Forcecage, THEN either pepper them to death and laugh or fry em with DD spells.

Not trying to frag your example, but hopefully you see the benefits of a different approach.  I'm all for killing enemy mages...my war weavers follow the Algernon doctrine avidly, and are optimized for high speed RPG tag.  Ya just gotta think outside the emanation ;)

I know youre not but believe me I'm fully prepared for tactics such as the one you mentioned and I even acknowledged that you can escape one using immediate actions.

Well the trick is not getting caught inside one in the first place...sure I realize the other person can use similar tactics...but my character will likely be able to action meta-manage better than him so it should work.

Its all about action meta-management. You guys may know it as "the action economy" but action meta-management is a term I coined a long time ago. I am currently writing a paper on it and I intend to publish it on this board when its finished. So, I'm not going to explain it right now but just trust me that I'm fully aware of other possible approaches and once you read my paper youll understand how I can nullify 99% of them using the proper tactics.

I also beleive I mentioned using time stop earlier. I am well aware of that tactic. However, I do at least slightly question if you can drop an antimagic field on someone when you are time stopped since it specifically notes that you cannot enter an antimagic field when time stop is active I would say that you cant create one either, though that may be a bit of a houserule.

I do think that the antimagic field wouldnt activate until after the time stop was over thus at least giving the defending wizard a chance to use an immediate action before hes covered in it. I would like to hear what other people think about this issue because its something I have questioned for a while now.


Wall of force is immune to antimagic field, but force cage doesn't list that as an inherited property.  I looked into this after that OoTS comic.  I couldn't find a reason antimagic field wouldn't suppress a force cage. 

I'm the only one who mentioned remaining in maw of chaos and I only said it wouldn't deal damage on multiple rounds, not that it wouldn't deal damage on one round.  I also never said maw of chaos wasn't better than wings of flurry, just that it's not enough of an improvement that I'd use a 9th level spell known for it. 


Forcecage
Evocation [Force]

Level: Sor/Wiz 7
 
Components: V, S, M
 
Casting Time: 1 standard action
 
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
 
Area: Barred cage (20-ft. cube) or windowless cell (10-ft. cube)
 
Duration: 2 hours/level (D)
 
Saving Throw: None
 
Spell Resistance: No
This powerful spell brings into being an immobile, invisible cubical prison composed of either bars of force or solid walls of force (your choice).

Creatures within the area are caught and contained unless they are too big to fit inside, in which case the spell automatically fails. Teleportation and other forms of astral travel provide a means of escape, but the force walls or bars extend into the Ethereal Plane, blocking ethereal travel.

Like a wall of force spell, a forcecage resists dispel magic, but it is vulnerable to a disintegrate spell, and it can be destroyed by a sphere of annihilation or a rod of cancellation.

Barred Cage: This version of the spell produces a 20-foot cube made of bands of force (similar to a wall of force spell) for bars. The bands are a half-inch wide, with half-inch gaps between them. Any creature capable of passing through such a small space can escape; others are confined. You can’t attack a creature in a barred cage with a weapon unless the weapon can fit between the gaps. Even against such weapons (including arrows and similar ranged attacks), a creature in the barred cage has cover. All spells and breath weapons can pass through the gaps in the bars.

Windowless Cell: This version of the spell produces a 10-foot cube with no way in and no way out. Solid walls of force form its six sides.

Material Component: Ruby dust worth 1,500 gp, which is tossed into the air and disappears when you cast the spell.



I think its pretty obvious that the stuff that makes up a forcecage works the same way a wall of force does.

Also, maw of chaos is a HUGE improvement when used in the proper way.

even if its not used in the particular way some of my characters utilize it you still have to think about my OoF example:

Also, when I said absolute I still allowed for a small number of things to counter it (note that I mentioned initiate of mystra). But surely someone that can counter my offense would have something to deal with wings of flurry as well. My point is, mine works 99% of the time, wings of flurry works (to its full extent) probably 30-40% of the time.

Maw may not work 99% of the time like OoF but its surely in the high 70's if not 80's whereas wings is just 30-40% I think that increase in the probability that it will do the damage is worth a 9th level spell.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2009, 06:06:48 PM by Azrael »

Alastar

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Re: Archmage dip worth the requirements?
« Reply #42 on: October 22, 2009, 09:12:33 PM »
Maw is awesome, because it affects an area not a person, and stays.

Maximised Timestop, forcecage, dimensional lock, maw of chaos x3, ready action to counterspell disintegrate and most things can't escape that, even if they succeed on the 3 will saves vs daze, they can't really get out...

Azrael

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Re: Archmage dip worth the requirements?
« Reply #43 on: October 22, 2009, 09:26:07 PM »
That's an interesting one, never thought of that, though I know of things like it.

It's truly amazing how many variations of things and combinations there are.

The only problem is that one uses up a lot of high level spells.

Btw, assuming you survive the damage, or prevent it somehow, its really easy to get out of that. Dispel the dimension lock and teleport.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2009, 09:31:12 PM by Azrael »

KellKheraptis

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Re: Archmage dip worth the requirements?
« Reply #44 on: October 22, 2009, 09:28:48 PM »
That's an interesting one, never thought of that, though I know of things like it.

It's truly amazing how many variations of things and combinations there are.

The only problem is that one uses up a lot of high level spells.

Only uses up one if you're a typical turtle mage :P  Astral Projection!
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Archmage dip worth the requirements?
« Reply #45 on: October 22, 2009, 09:43:34 PM »
Maw being abjuration is nice because it effects the ethereal plane as well as material.
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Azrael

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Re: Archmage dip worth the requirements?
« Reply #46 on: October 22, 2009, 11:29:48 PM »
Only uses up one if you're a typical turtle mage :P  Astral Projection!

Where does it say under astral projection that you don't still use up the spell slots of your original body. Or rather, it never specifies that you create a separate spell pool for the astral body.

KellKheraptis

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Re: Archmage dip worth the requirements?
« Reply #47 on: October 23, 2009, 12:11:54 AM »
Only uses up one if you're a typical turtle mage :P  Astral Projection!

Where does it say under astral projection that you don't still use up the spell slots of your original body. Or rather, it never specifies that you create a separate spell pool for the astral body.

Moot point when you control time on the demiplane you're projecting from.
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Azrael

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Re: Archmage dip worth the requirements?
« Reply #48 on: October 23, 2009, 09:37:19 PM »
I guess....


Though I never allow time manipulation stuff like that.

I figure if you are operating in one time frame and attempting to affect another it works just like the spell time stop; since time stop specifically mentions that you don't actually stop time, you just accelerate your own time frame so quickly it seems like that.

So I always rule that anything in one time frame affecting another just doesn't work, just like time stop.

I figure that this is really less of a house rule and more of an interpretation of the RAW. Since there  are no actual rules governing this type of situation the next logical step is to go to the closest thing in the rules that does; and thats time stop.

KellKheraptis

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Re: Archmage dip worth the requirements?
« Reply #49 on: October 23, 2009, 11:11:13 PM »
The trick still works though, since then you just set a ton of shit 5 rounds at a time to go off, and scry on the still world immediately after the boom with a way of detecting life/unlife.  Hell, given a long enough time frame (which is doable), you could clear out planets one person at a time in a VERY insidious manner...and no one would ever be the wiser in your totally closed demiplane :P
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Azrael

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Re: Archmage dip worth the requirements?
« Reply #50 on: October 23, 2009, 11:15:59 PM »
No no, you misunderstand.

As long as you are in the demiplane which as a separate time frame you cant interact at all with the world as is. If you scry all you would ever see is the same picture for years at a time.

If you ever read/watched bleach, think about how Szayel Apporo Grantz was defeated. Its the same concept. You have to leave the demiplane in order to interact normally, which you could do as far as leaving for a second, resting for the night, and coming back a second later. But you couldn't control your astral form while you were on the demiplane.

Separate time frames don't interact with each other.

Maat_Mons

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Re: Archmage dip worth the requirements?
« Reply #51 on: October 24, 2009, 08:50:21 AM »
This powerful spell brings into being an immobile, invisible cubical prison composed of either bars of force or solid walls of force (your choice).

While the spell wall of force can be used to create walls of force, that does not mean that everything that can create walls of force must work exactly like the spell wall of force.  This is for much the same reason that building walls of stone with masonry does not necessarily need to produce the same results as casting wall of stone

Like a wall of force spell, a forcecage resists dispel magic, but it is vulnerable to a disintegrate spell, and it can be destroyed by a sphere of annihilation or a rod of cancellation.

You realize this is a list of ways forcecage is like wall of force and not and not a blanket statement that forcecage is like wall of force unless otherwise noted, right?  Not only does this not say that forcecage is unaffected by antimagic field, this is where such an inherited property should be listed and it's not here.  Drawing attention to this sentence actually seems to argue against your point. 

This version of the spell produces a 20-foot cube made of bands of force (similar to a wall of force spell) for bars.

It is similar to a wall of force spell, but not exactly the same.  So, is the interaction with an antimagic field one of the similarities or the differences?  This doesn't say. 

I read the spell before I posted and I noticed the references to wall of force.  I would consider it reasonable to house-rule that forcecage is unaffected by an antimagic field.  I just don't see anything in the rules that says it works that way. 

Maw is awesome, because it affects an area not a person, and stays.

Maximised Timestop, forcecage, dimensional lock, maw of chaos x3, ready action to counterspell disintegrate and most things can't escape that, even if they succeed on the 3 will saves vs daze, they can't really get out...

Now that's an argument in favor of maw of chaos. 

Azrael

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Re: Archmage dip worth the requirements?
« Reply #52 on: October 24, 2009, 04:21:58 PM »
Its common knowledge that forcecage replicates wall of force in a more useful manner. The spell wouldn't be worth a 7th level slot otherwise.

I think its pretty clear that they intend to the spell to replicate wall of force in all of its aspects. I knew someone would bring up this argument and I hoped I wouldn't have to defend it and I really don't feel like it.

Sure, you're right about everything you said, that's true. However, I think the original intent of the spell stands as being a cage made up of walls of force. This has been common knowledge for a long time and while I'm all for arguing against common knowledge when appropriate I think that you're wrong on this one.

Someone else take care of this one.