Author Topic: Archmage dip worth the requirements?  (Read 8156 times)

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Azrael

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Re: Archmage dip worth the requirements?
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2009, 06:48:59 PM »
Your points are all valid but you clearly don't understand my tactics. Orb of Force is a valuable spell for most of them which focus on antimagic fields. Antimagic fields are ABSOLUTE! Nothing short of an initiate of mystra, a warblade, or that 9th level spell can help you when you are inside one (and you can pretty much take out the iron heart maneuver and 9th level spell because they aren't immediate actions).

Once you are inside an antimagic field you have no buffs and no magic items so I don't have to worry about hitting you with a touch attack since your touch AC will likely be below 20. I also don't have to worry about anything else (like displacement) which may prevent me from hitting you. The only thing I have to worry about is a natural 1. At that point I will probably do a greater arcane fusion (yes I was already aware of this, although I use orb of force instead of wings of flurry). One of them is maxed normally and another is maxed with a rod. Guess what, I do it again by quickening it with a rod. That's 240 points of force damage you just took, and since your magic items are gone (which means any temp HP you get from con items and such) you most likely don't have enough hp to survive....oops, you survived, well I just use a celerity and do another one...even most barbarians (not that you would have to resort to this if you were fighting a non-caster) without magic items can't survive 360 points of damage. Just in case you want to argue with me on that lets do the math quickly 12d20 = 240 hp (assuming you rolled max on all your HD) and lets say a 20 con (without magic items, which is very unlikely). That's still only 340 hp (and that's assuming you rolled max hd).

The only spell, you say?  I cast telekinesis and deal 240d6 damage.  

I knew someone would bring this up...just keep in mind you need an object around that's big enough to do that much damage, which won't always be available...and you cant do it if you do the forcecage/antimagic combo...so OoF still wins.

Oh no, my point was blasting sucks.  I defeated the god by casting a twinned avasculate, followed by a full round attack using arcane strike and all my spell slots.

60d6 in 6 rounds.... (and btw, your example is kinda biased by the fact you account for metamagic in one case and not in the other)  do fights even last 6 rounds? at mid-high levels?  Really?  What kinda game you playing? I've yet to meet a fight that lasted more than 3 rounds!

Or better yet, as TML pointed out double, triple or even a quadruple threat spell is SO MUCH BETTER, spells that not only damage, but also debuff.  Yes wings of flurry is awesome, because it has a chance to daze, not because of the uncaped force damage.

Mainly: you don't need orb of force, because it's a straightforward damage dealing pointless spell.  You want to deal force damage, get a force quarterstaff, take the arcane strike feat, cast heroics to get power attack, cast wraithstrike, go to town!

A wizard has no place learning Orb of Force because if you're playing a wizard and focusing on dealing damage... well then, you're not really playing a wizard.

You're right, blasting does suck...but I'm not useing OoF to blast, its simply used as a strategic damage dealer after a universal debuff (antimagic field); its a bit different. Do you honestly think I'm going to use that spell for my normal damage dealing...fuck no.

My example is not biased since you can't extend a wings of flurry, if you could I would have gladly included it. But even so, you are right, you probably don't even have to extend it since most battles don't last longer than 3 rounds. That's still 30d6 vs 20d6...I still win.

Also, I would like to point out. I don't know if you guys have this mentality but I always do when I'm optimizing...I ALWAYS assume my enemies will make their save, therefore, by that logic, wings of flurry is not a triple or quadruple or whatever threat spell. The mentality I have when I'm optimizing is this, I don't know what my enemy will be capable of, therefore, I use as many universally sound tactics I can as to ensure my victory. Any spell that has a save and sr is not universally sound; I usually ignore them. Unless they at the very least disallow one of the two I don't bother (yes there are exceptions like manyjaws; but that's mainly for the purpose of dealing with weaker enemies that I don't want to waste high level spell slots on).

I guess I don't have to defend maw of chaos since you guys already did that...lol, it would be great if they stuck around to take 20d6 each round lol, but even upon casting it still gets 20d6 damage in.


I don't hate wings of flurry (as I said multiple times before) so you don't have to defend it. I fully understand how good it is and I would probably take it if my spell list wasn't so strained as is (sorcerer).

My ultimate point is this...my tactics with the antimagic fields are pretty much foolproof. If I catch you in an antimagic field you are DONE (yeah I know the gate tactic as well, but I would rather not have to use one of my 9th level spells if I am a sorcerer to learn gate). Whereas, tactics surrounding wings of flurry are not. Your enemy could save, they could have evasion, you might not beat their SR, they could have magic immunity, etc. Even without the antimagic field my OoF, on average (like an average of using the spell thousands of times on multiple different enemies over the course of an entire campaign), will likely end up doing more damage than wings of flurry because there are only a handfull of ways to escape its damage; even though wings of flurry does more damage in a single shot (assuming they don't save).

P.S. You never answered my question of how you got past the God's SR. Avasculate still allows SR...it must not have been a caster god...which god was this?
« Last Edit: October 21, 2009, 06:54:38 PM by Azrael »

Alastar

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Re: Archmage dip worth the requirements?
« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2009, 07:04:52 PM »
Handmade god, with assay spell resistance and a CL of 24 i easily got past it's 40 SR.

She was the goddess of Chaos in our world, i had party members, but they proved pretty useless to hit her, since she had the Ragewalker's ability to send back arrows, nullyfying the archer, and she had too much Natural armor for the dragon wildshaped druid to touch her (he was a warshaper master of manyform thing).

I however, had no problem hitting her, being an incantatrix, I simply persisted a divine power on me every morning, giving me 20 BAB, I had 30 Dex for another +10 to hit, and 30 Strenght too, for a +30 to hit in melee too.  + 5 weapon due to GMW, +5 to hit again with Knowledge Devotion = +40 to hit, with arcane strike, and righteous wrath of the faithful (cast by our cleric who had to go afterwards) that brought me to +52.

Wraith strike to bypass her +40 natural armor bonus, and BAM, went to town!  400 damage per hit, 5 hits, after the avasculates her 4000 hp colossal ass was DOWNED!

Azrael

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Re: Archmage dip worth the requirements?
« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2009, 07:10:22 PM »
I guess that works...though, in her defense, she does have a really low SR; lower than most gods on average, even the fighters.

Alastar

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Re: Archmage dip worth the requirements?
« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2009, 07:12:33 PM »
Well she was the boss of a level 20 story arc, she was meant to be defeatable ya know, just... really tough, in the one round attack she got off on me, she WAS able to kill me, despite my many defenses, it just so happened that i had a contingent true resurection from the bastion of borken souls, the before-last quest we did...

Maat_Mons

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Re: Archmage dip worth the requirements?
« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2009, 07:57:43 PM »
If I catch you in an antimagic field you are DONE

The astral projected image will be suppressed in an antimagic field and thus not available for you to hit. 

I guess I don't have to defend maw of chaos since you guys already did that...

Actually, no.  No one defended maw of chaos.  Some people described what maw of chaos doesDefending maw of chaos would require making the argument that it is worth using one of your very limited 9th level spells known to learn it.  I could see setting aside a 4th level spell known for area effect damage, maybe.  I can't see setting aside a 9th level spell know for similar purposes. 

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Archmage dip worth the requirements?
« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2009, 09:21:39 PM »
Your points are all valid but you clearly don't understand my tactics. Orb of Force is a valuable spell for most of them which focus on antimagic fields. Antimagic fields are ABSOLUTE! Nothing short of an initiate of mystra, a warblade, or that 9th level spell can help you when you are inside one.
AMF dispels shrink item.  My hat now returns to its original form, breaking line of effect to me.

And how the hell are you getting your opponents inside an AMF to begin with?
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Alastar

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Re: Archmage dip worth the requirements?
« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2009, 09:23:57 PM »
Also with OoF, you can't cast the spell if you,re inside the AMF.  It just doesn't blink out if you throw it inside.

LargePrime

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Re: Archmage dip worth the requirements?
« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2009, 09:31:29 PM »
I simply persisted a divine power on me every morning, giving me 20 BAB,
Divine power only adds +3 max to BAB.

Alastar

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Re: Archmage dip worth the requirements?
« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2009, 09:35:45 PM »
SRD tends to disagree

[spoiler]Divine Power
Evocation
Level: Clr 4, War 4
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round/level

Calling upon the divine power of your patron, you imbue yourself with strength and skill in combat. Your base attack bonus becomes equal to your character level (which may give you additional attacks), you gain a +6 enhancement bonus to Strength, and you gain 1 temporary hit point per caster level. [/spoiler]

Azrael

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Re: Archmage dip worth the requirements?
« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2009, 11:41:54 PM »
Well she was the boss of a level 20 story arc, she was meant to be defeatable ya know, just... really tough, in the one round attack she got off on me, she WAS able to kill me, despite my many defenses, it just so happened that i had a contingent true resurection from the bastion of borken souls, the before-last quest we did...

Yeah, I figured she was intended to be defeated. Though you must have had an optimized group to take on a god at level 20.

The astral projected image will be suppressed in an antimagic field and thus not available for you to hit. 

Actually, no.  No one defended maw of chaos.  Some people described what maw of chaos doesDefending maw of chaos would require making the argument that it is worth using one of your very limited 9th level spells known to learn it.  I could see setting aside a 4th level spell known for area effect damage, maybe.  I can't see setting aside a 9th level spell know for similar purposes. 

Ok, so its supressed, I teleport away, buy a scroll of discern location, find your real body and kill you. Even if I don't do it its merely a stalemate. Or I could just dispel/disjoin your projection. I don't know why people like that spell so much, its very easy to get rid of.

By "defending" I mean clearing up the issue that someone thought you had to remain in the maw in order for it to do any damage to you. It deals damage the first round at the very least, which is CL, same as wings. If you read my post more thoroughly you would discover that I said I would only use it when it WAS necessary, if I even had it. My only point was that it IS a better spell at dealing damage than wings of flurry, and you cant argue that.


AMF dispels shrink item.  My hat now returns to its original form, breaking line of effect to me.

And how the hell are you getting your opponents inside an AMF to begin with?

Everyone likes that tactic, I can still

A: use an immediate action to get closer to you before it shrinks

or

B: simply teleport inside there with you...any other defenses...I think not.

even if you get an immediate action to teleport out before I enter (and I'm incorporeal so I can share your space), you only have one "hat", ill just get you when you come out.

Its a spell aimed field...I figured that much was apparent...either that or I can do that familiar as a beholder trick...either one, take your pick.

Also with OoF, you can't cast the spell if you,re inside the AMF.  It just doesn't blink out if you throw it inside.

Thank you, I am very aware of how antimagic field works (see above).

Divine power only adds +3 max to BAB.

I don't know where you got that from. Is that even 3.0 rules?


Also, when I said absolute I still allowed for a small number of things to counter it (note that I mentioned initiate of mystra). But surely someone that can counter my offense would have something to deal with wings of flurry as well. My point is, mine works 99% of the time, wings of flurry works (to its full extent) probably 30-40% of the time.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2009, 11:46:53 PM by Azrael »

snakeman830

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Re: Archmage dip worth the requirements?
« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2009, 11:45:21 PM »
For being very aware of how AMF works, you're forgetting that it's centered around YOU.  Any caster that uses AMF shuts down their own spellcasting (and spells, magic items, etc.) until they dismiss the effect.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
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Azrael

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Re: Archmage dip worth the requirements?
« Reply #31 on: October 21, 2009, 11:49:11 PM »
For being very aware of how AMF works, you're forgetting that it's centered around YOU.  Any caster that uses AMF shuts down their own spellcasting (and spells, magic items, etc.) until they dismiss the effect.

Wow, read the post...lol

SPELL AIMED

SHAPECHANGE SHARED WITH FAMILIAR WHICH TURNS INTO A BEHOLDER


Jeeze, don't post unless you read the whole thing.

Alastar

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Re: Archmage dip worth the requirements?
« Reply #32 on: October 21, 2009, 11:59:19 PM »
Yah, but those effects expose you to the same spells you use on others.  also, discern location is thwarted by mind blank.

If a high level dude doesn't want to be found, well it's pretty hard to find him: Proof= the iron siege, the challenge isn't to kill the dude, the challenge is to FIND the dude!!!!

And finally, if you can both cast AMF, move up to the opposing spellcaster, convince him amiably to stay there while you get ready to cast a spell, and then cast your spell, then he deserves to die.

Anyways, this has totally derailed.

Point: AMF is pretty good, TRUE, it's USEFUL. It can even be a good tactic!

Is it ultimate? Fuck No

Is it unchallengeable except by initiate of mystra?  Still fuck no, i'm pretty sure the CO boards could easily find 20 ways to defeat what you just proposed.

Is OoF worth investing several feats in it?  All signs point to NO!  (except for a blastificier, for them it's good due to the lower level cap)

Point: Making your whole character around being able to pierce an AMF that you yourself created? Kinda Pointless.  Hey, i'm gonna put RESTRICTIONS on myself, and then find ways to BYPASS THEM IN A LESSER WAY, AWESOME!!! I'M SO COOL!

Come back when you have a spell able to bypass an AMF that others put on you, then I'll be impressed.

snakeman830

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Re: Archmage dip worth the requirements?
« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2009, 12:07:54 AM »
Come back when you have a spell able to bypass an AMF that others put on you, then I'll be impressed.
Invoke Magic.  9th level Abjuration spell that lets you cast 1 spell inside an AMF or Dead Magic Zone.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

Azrael

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Re: Archmage dip worth the requirements?
« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2009, 12:14:47 AM »
Yah, but those effects expose you to the same spells you use on others.  also, discern location is thwarted by mind blank.

If a high level dude doesn't want to be found, well it's pretty hard to find him: Proof= the iron siege, the challenge isn't to kill the dude, the challenge is to FIND the dude!!!!

And finally, if you can both cast AMF, move up to the opposing spellcaster, convince him amiably to stay there while you get ready to cast a spell, and then cast your spell, then he deserves to die.

Anyways, this has totally derailed.

Point: AMF is pretty good, TRUE, it's USEFUL. It can even be a good tactic!

Is it ultimate? Fuck No

Is it unchallengeable except by initiate of mystra?  Still fuck no, i'm pretty sure the CO boards could easily find 20 ways to defeat what you just proposed.

Is OoF worth investing several feats in it?  All signs point to NO!  (except for a blastificier, for them it's good due to the lower level cap)

Point: Making your whole character around being able to pierce an AMF that you yourself created? Kinda Pointless.  Hey, i'm gonna put RESTRICTIONS on myself, and then find ways to BYPASS THEM IN A LESSER WAY, AWESOME!!! I'M SO COOL!

Come back when you have a spell able to bypass an AMF that others put on you, then I'll be impressed.

Ok, true it is. My bad, its a stalemate then.

Yeah, that's why I either have it persisted or cast it while doing my other buffs in a greater extended rod time stop.

Never said it was only initiate of mystra, I said "small number of things."

...why am I investing feats into it...I said I was using rods. I have maximize spell, sure, but that's the only one...and its not solely for THAT spell...it has other uses lol.

LOL HAHAHAHAHA, you think my entire character(s) (I am not talking about any one character in particular just so you know) is based around THAT! FUCK NO! It is but one of my offenses, usually reserved for only the toughest foes which have buffs up that make them immune to any of my other means of attacking them or something.

Well the trick is not getting caught inside one in the first place...sure I realize the other person can use similar tactics...but my character will likely be able to action meta-manage better than him so it should work.


And please refrain from talking about the CO people as if they are a separate entity as I. I have been around CO just as long as any of you I just mostly posted on the wizards boards. I made the permanent move here only recently because of my distaste with wizards new format.

Come back when you have a spell able to bypass an AMF that others put on you, then I'll be impressed.
Invoke Magic.  9th level Abjuration spell that lets you cast 1 spell inside an AMF or Dead Magic Zone.

Nothing short of an initiate of mystra, a warblade, or that 9th level spell can help you when you are inside one (and you can pretty much take out the iron heart maneuver and 9th level spell because they aren't immediate actions).

Sorry, already beat you to it, but as you can see, wouldn't work (against my tactic at least) since its not an immediate action.

Also you missed the little part about it being a 4th level or lower spell only.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2009, 12:19:11 AM by Azrael »

KellKheraptis

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Re: Archmage dip worth the requirements?
« Reply #35 on: October 22, 2009, 07:04:26 AM »
Actually, so long as I'm not flatfooted (my Ultimate Mage build isn't, via Legacy Champion+Legacy Item with cunning), I can cast an immediate action spell in response to your AMF.  Further, the odds of you getting it off in the first place without dealing with two spells in the face minimum (two readied, one in reserve in the form of immediate standard) with my Initiative mod are nil.  Even butt naked, you're looking at +12+Dex on the UM, and +12+Dex+Int on my Swiftblade.  And ironically, the second part of it I use as a mage-killer.  Spell Matrix firing Sanctum Orbs of Force as a swift action, rod-empowered or maximized as they fire.  45 dice of force usually fries most things, and even if it doesn't, I still have two standard actions and a move action available to use.  Given the nature of said UM, that's 1d20+40 to beat your SR, and assuming you survived the tri-nuke, you're either getting a Holy Word, or if my persistent status (whatever the enemy version of it is) notices you're A)not protected from death magic and B)below 90 hp, you'll get a Power Word Kill and die automatically, allowing me to either blow the weave to buff against your cronies and cast a BC (standard action), or blow the weave and teleport out, to scry the corpse later and salvage the goodies.  AMF works best when it can be dropped on an already committed opponent, from a distance.  Arcane Archer, as pointed out to me by Doc Rock, is my favored method, as that's 100% not gonna land on you, and can shut down an enemy caster while you do whatever you need to do.  Further, it can be done within a Time Stop, meaning you can drop the AMF after raising a Forcecage, THEN either pepper them to death and laugh or fry em with DD spells.

Not trying to frag your example, but hopefully you see the benefits of a different approach.  I'm all for killing enemy mages...my war weavers follow the Algernon doctrine avidly, and are optimized for high speed RPG tag.  Ya just gotta think outside the emanation ;)
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LargePrime

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Re: Archmage dip worth the requirements?
« Reply #36 on: October 22, 2009, 09:27:24 AM »
SRD tends to disagree

[spoiler]Divine Power
Evocation
Level: Clr 4, War 4
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round/level

Calling upon the divine power of your patron, you imbue yourself with strength and skill in combat. Your base attack bonus becomes equal to your character level (which may give you additional attacks), you gain a +6 enhancement bonus to Strength, and you gain 1 temporary hit point per caster level. [/spoiler]
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/PHBErrata02062006.zip
Erratad.  Max +3

KellKheraptis

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Re: Archmage dip worth the requirements?
« Reply #37 on: October 22, 2009, 09:36:20 AM »
That's Divine Favor, not Divine Power.  DP is, was, and always has been BAB=CharLvl, max 20.
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LargePrime

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Re: Archmage dip worth the requirements?
« Reply #38 on: October 22, 2009, 09:53:51 AM »
That's Divine Favor, not Divine Power.  DP is, was, and always has been BAB=CharLvl, max 20.
Where is that history eraser button?

KellKheraptis

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Re: Archmage dip worth the requirements?
« Reply #39 on: October 22, 2009, 09:55:04 AM »
That's Divine Favor, not Divine Power.  DP is, was, and always has been BAB=CharLvl, max 20.
Where is that history eraser button?

I think SorO-Lost is the one with the Wire Hanger :P

EDITTED : Wrong S name...
« Last Edit: October 22, 2009, 09:57:31 AM by KellKheraptis »
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