Author Topic: [SWSE] Let's have a general Saga Edition thread, ok?  (Read 21073 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Emy

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 489
[SWSE] Let's have a general Saga Edition thread, ok?
« on: October 17, 2009, 07:40:31 AM »
Yo~

There was recently a Jedi advice thread; it got a few nice responses, but it was pretty specific. I know there's at least some interest in Star Wars: Saga Edition around here, so I'd like to talk about it a bit. I don't have as firm a grasp on the rules of SWSE as I'd like, so if I get anything wrong, please call me out on it as quickly as possible. Oh, and if I missed anything for the "X Stat to Y Bonus" part, please tell me what I missed and where I can find it.

I'm dividing this stuff I want post into three parts: This introduction, a useful post, and then some ramblings (hopefully at least one of these parts will start a discussion).

Basic summary of SWSE

It's Star Wars.
Spaceships, lightsabers, Jedi, scoundrels, Sith, lots of near-humans, blasters, Darth Vader, and no paper.

It's d20.
The system is much more similar to d20 modern than it is to D&D 3e. WBL isn't of critical importance like it is in 3.5. Skills have been very heavily consolidated and simplified. There aren't as many things that give you small bonuses to skills, so bonus stacking isn't as big -- rather, you'll usually get reroll for skills, the ability to do more stuff with skills, or the ability to use them faster. There is no AC. All attacks target Reflex, Fortitude, or Will. Attacks and defenses scale more smoothly. Almost all build customization is done through feats and talents, and there are fewer "trap" feats. (ackbar.jpg)
« Last Edit: October 17, 2009, 07:42:41 AM by Emy »

Emy

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 489
Re: [SWSE] Let's have a general Saga Edition thread, ok?
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2009, 07:41:25 AM »
1. X Stat to Y Bonus
Format based on BG port of the handy D&D 3.5 resource of the same name.
Thanks, Shadowhunter and Toptomcat, for adding things to this chart.
*STRENGTH*
Code: [Select]
Feat or Talent{Tree}              Class/tradition    Source                 Bonus
 CLASS TALENTS
Hammerblow{Brawler}               Soldier            Legacy Era CG pg31     Double Strength bonus to unarmed attack rolls when holding nothing in either hand
 FORCE TALENTS
High Impact{Believer Disciple}    The Believers      Clone Wars pg56        Double Strength bonus to any melee damage with a swift action and a DC 15 UTF check
 FEATS
Echani Training                                      KotOR CG pg33          Double Strength bonus to unarmed attack damage when making no more than one unarmed attack per round
Mighty Throw                                         Force Unleashed pg33   Str to attack with thrown weapons and increase to range catergories equal to Str mod
Resilient Strength                                   Galaxy at War pg25     Replaces Con to Fort defense
 OTHER
*DEXTERITY*
Code: [Select]
Feat or Talent{Tree}              Class/tradition    Source                 Bonus
 CLASS TALENTS
Ataru{Lightsaber Forms}           Jedi K./Sith A.    Core pg218/TttG pg81   Replaces Str to damage with lightsabers
Master of Elegance{Melee Duelist} Melee Duelist      KotOR CG pg47          Dex to damage instead of Str, but for other melee weapons.
 FORCE TALENTS
 FEATS
Weapon Finesse                                       Core pg89              Replaces Str to hit with light melee weapons and lightsabers
 OTHER
*CONSTITUTION*
Code: [Select]
Feat or Talent{Tree}              Class/tradition    Source                 Bonus
 CLASS TALENTS
 FORCE TALENTS
 FEATS
 OTHER
*INTELLIGENCE*
Code: [Select]
Feat or Talent{Tree}              Class/tradition    Source                 Bonus
 CLASS TALENTS
 FORCE TALENTS
 FEATS
Predictive Defense                                   Galaxy at War pg25     Replaces Dex to Ref defense
 OTHER
*WISDOM*
Code: [Select]
Feat or Talent{Tree}              Class/tradition    Source                 Bonus
 CLASS TALENTS
 FORCE TALENTS
 FEATS
 OTHER
*CHARISMA*
Code: [Select]
Feat or Talent{Tree}              Class/tradition    Source                 Bonus
 CLASS TALENTS
Force Intuition{Jedi Guardian}    Jedi               Core pg40              Replace Initiative checks with Use the Force checks
Force Persuasion{Jedi Consular}   Jedi               Core pg40              Replace Persuasion checks with Use the Force checks
Idealist{Ideologue}               Noble              Force Unleashed pg25   Replaces Wis to Will defense
Noble Fencing Style{Fencing}      Noble              KotOR CG pg27          Replaces Str to hit with a light melee weapon or lightsaber
 FORCE TALENTS
Fluidity{Shapers of Kro Var}      Shaper of Kro Var  Jedi Academy pg85      Replace Acrobatics checks with Use the Force checks
Force Pilot{Sense}                                   Core pg101             Replace Pilot checks with Use the Force checks
Force Perception{Sense}                              Core pg101             Replace Perception checks with Use the Force checks
Waveform                          Order of Shasa     KotOR CG pg61          Additional damage on [telekinetic] powers
White Current Adept{White Current Adept} Fallanassi  Jedi Academy pg77      Replace Stealth checks with Use the Force checks
 FEATS
Force of Personality                                 Galaxy at War pg23     Replaces Wis to Will defense
 OTHER
Enlighten (Force power)                              Legacy Era CG pg54     Replace many things with a UtF check result. See section 2
Target Sense (Maneuver)                              SotG pg30              Replace vehicle's Int to attack with your Cha

2. Enlightenment
Enlighten is an excellent, excellent force power from the Legacy Era Campaign Guide. As far as I can tell, its use goes something like this:
Quote
An apprentice said to Yoda, "Your stone bridge is widely renowned, but coming here I find only a heap of rocks."
Yoda said, "Only the stones, you see, and not the bridge."
The apprentice said, "What is the bridge?"
Yoda said, "What we are walking on, do you think, mmmm?"

It's a swift action power that targets an ally, and replaces one of their skill checks, attack rolls, or defenses with your Use the Force check. Remember, you're an ally, unless you're specifically excluded (as you are with some Noble talents, like Inspire Confidence). So for a swift action, you can replace any of your skills with Use the Force.

Which means that you can use Serenity to get a result of 20+UtF mod on any skill check, but that's purely incidental.

3. Power Overwhelming
There's this lovely maneuver in Starships of the Galaxy, called Overwhelming Assault [attack pattern]. Here's what it does if you successfully activate it:
Quote from: SotG
While you are engaged in combat, choose one other vehicle as the target of overwhelming assault. On your action, before making an attack roll, you may choose to subtract a number from all vehicle weapon attack rolls you make against that target and add twice that number to all vehicle weapon damage rolls (before multipliers are applied). The penalty on attack rolls applies to all attacks you make until the start of your next turn, but the bonus on damage rolls applies only on attacks against the target you designate.

While, on its face, this is quite good, there's one important thing I'd like to point out. Here's what this maneuver is missing: a limit. It's like 2-handed power attack, for vehicle weapons. Except you're not limited to your BAB. How is this useful?

A) 'Standard' use
Since you're not limited by base attack bonus as with Power Attack, there's no reason you can't overwhelming assault for the proper attack penalty each round. If you already have +20 to hit, and you're attacking a large target that has a reflex defense of 13, you might as well take a penalty of 8. If you're against a target with shields, punching through the SR becomes really important, so it might be worthwhile to get as many people as possible to use Aid Another to help you. You can take another -2 penalty on attacks (for a damage increase of +4*damage multiplier). Or if you're only going to hit on a 20 anyway, you might as well take a five billion penalty to your attacks. You'll hit with the same frequency, but if any attacks hit, they'll have spectacular results.

B) Accuracy by volume
If you have 100 guns, and are using overwhelming attack with a five billion penalty, your ship/gunners have a ~0.6% chance of not vaporizing your target. Of course, with 100 guns, not much would survive in the first place, but this assures that no shields or armor will be able to defend against it.

C) Enlighten
Using overwhelming attack with the aforementioned five billion penalty to your attack rolls means your chances of hitting are pretty bad... but you can use enlighten to use your UtF check result instead of making an attack roll. Goodbye 1d20-4,999,999,990, hello 1d20+14 (or better, with levels).
« Last Edit: October 20, 2009, 10:19:29 PM by Emy »

Emy

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 489
Re: [SWSE] Let's have a general Saga Edition thread, ok?
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2009, 07:41:49 AM »

Ramble mode engaged.

My current optimization-related project is statting a low-budget capital fleet. "Low-budget" in terms of what an organization could afford, not meaning low-budget for a group of characters.

My current general plan is using Heavy Freighters for the capital ships, and using them as carriers (not that they wouldn't have their own weapons). I'm also trying to keep crew requirements to an absolute minimum, which means having fighters piloted by drones or using the dirt-cheap AI piloted Vulture-class fighter as a base.

The main choice I'm working out at the moment is whether I should use the Vulture-class or a different fighter. Putting an R2 unit in the pilot seat of a different ship would result in a better skill modifiers. The problem is that it would also result in a worse attack mod, and a much more expensive ship (since the the Vulture-class is incredibly inexpensive, especially considering that if the weapons are removed it has 8 emplacement points to play around with). The Vulture also doesn't have feats, and the R2 does. I'd really like to find a good, inexpensive ship for a bunch of r2s to pilot, but I doubt I'll find something that can beat the low cost and higher attack bonus of the Vulture.

I dunno - maybe there's some way to add an astromech droid slot to the Vulture-class fighter, and have be the pilot/mechanic/sensor operator, while the ship's AI takes care of the gunnery.

---

For fun, here's my first attempt at an SWSE build.

[spoiler]
Daiyu Jia Yun

Stat array rolled via 4d6b3: 18 14 13 12 10 9

Miraluka +2 Int, -2 Dex, Force Training as a bonus feat

Level stat bumps:
Dex and Wis
Cha and Wis
Cha and Wis
Cha and Wis
Cha and Wis

final ability scores: Str: 14, Dex: 8, Con: 12, Int: 12, Wis: 18, Cha: 22

Jedi 1/Soldier 1/Jedi +5/Jedi Knight 2/Scout 3/Jedi Master 1/Noble 1/Jedi Knight +1/Jedi +1/Jedi Master +2/Jedi Knight +2

Talents:
Code: [Select]
1  | Jedi 1 | Block
2  | Sold 1 | Force Flow
4  | Jedi 3 | Deflect
6  | Jedi 5 | Force Intuition
8  | JKnt 1 | Soresu
10 | Sct  1 | Fringe Savant
12 | Sct  3 | Evasion
13 | JMsr 1 | Folded Space Mastery
14 | Nobl 1 | Equilibrium
15 | JKnt 3 | Shii-Cho
16 | Jedi 7 | Acrobatic Recovery
18 | JMsr 3 | Fluidity
20 | JKnt 5 | Sokan

Feats:
(Blank feats are probably Force Training)
Code: [Select]
1  | Level  | Skill Focus (Use the Force)
1  | Race   | Force Training
1  | Jedi 1 | Force Sensitivity, W. Prof. (lightsabers), W. Prof. (simple weapons)
2  | Sold 1 | Armor Proficiency (Light)
3  | Level  | Powerful Charge
3  | Jedi 2 | Power Attack
5  | Jedi 4 |
6  | Level  |
7  | Jedi 6 |
9  | Level  |
10 | Sct  1 | Weapon Proficiency (Pistols)
11 | Sct  2 | Linguist
12 | Level  |
14 | Nobl 1 | Linguist
15 | Level  |
18 | Level  |

Shadowhunter

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1003
Re: [SWSE] Let's have a general Saga Edition thread, ok?
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2009, 02:55:35 PM »
On the (Ab)Use of Threshold:

Unlike D&D 3.5, where you're at prime fighting spirit even after taking those 30+ d6 in damage, as long as you have at least 1 HP left, the same cannot be said about Star Wars.

In SWSE, when you take damage that exceds your Threshold value, you go down one step on your Condition Track.
Just like in World of Darkness, the more damaged you are, the harder it becomes for you to do things.
A quick look in the core book let us familiarize with the mechanic.

At first glance, it seems a reasonable rule, since, after all, it's kind of hard to remain fighting whilst trying to balance on your guts when that Dire Vibroaxe cut you open.

However, as many enlightened induviduals have stated before me, there are some issues with this system.


Issue one:
At one end, we have the Greater Krayt Dragon.
It slaps you with its tail for an average of 51 damage. That's about a third or a fourth of a normal characters HP, correct me if I'm wrong.
But you still only go down 1 step on the Condition Track.

A litte odd, don't you think?
But ok, it's good thing for the players, so hey let's not complain.

There's a bunch of Feats and Talents to increase damage, but often not compatible with eachother.
There's also a bunch of Talents to add more steps down the condition track. Unlike the damage, these are all compatible with eachother. Hence:


Issue two:

Stacking Condition Track modifiers. As the rulebook shows us, 5 steps down the CT and you're out cold, no matter your HP.
When you're out cold, regardless of your remaining HP, if you take damage exceeding your Threshold value, you're dead meat/scrapped junk/[insert remnants].

With that in mind, I present the following build. I've taken a lot of inspiration from Radical Taoists build compendium and those who posted there, so credit given when credit is due.

[spoiler]Assassin.

Race:Rodian
More for fluff than for mechanical power, though I can't imagine any other race who would be vastly superior to this choice.

Advancement: Scout 7/Bounty Hunter 1/Vanguard 3/Scoundrel 1/Gunslinger 1/Assassin 7
Multi-classing madness.


Stats, given Dawn of Defiance standard 28 pt buy and the Rhodian racial modifiers:

Str:11
Dex:19
Con:14
Int:10
Wis:8
Cha:8

You need to maximize your Dexterity for a simple reason, namely to hit. A good Con-score always helps. The lack of Wisdom is somewhat offset by your re-rolls. Your Will Defense will take a hit, but if you do things the way we're planning, the opposition won't have much time to take advantage of that flaw.


Trained In: Endurance, Initative, Perception, Survival, Stealth
Everything you'll be needing from a camouflaged assassin.

Level Progression:
[spoiler]Talents within the [brackets]
Feats outside.

1 Scout:[Awarness Tree - Accute Senses], WP (pistols, rifles, simple), Point Blank Shot, Skill Focus (survival), Shake it Off
2 Scout: Precise Shot
3 Scout:[Awarness Tree - Improved Initative], Quick Draw
4 Scout: Careful Shot
5 Scout:[Camouflage Tree - Improved Stealth]
6 Scout: Sniper, Deadeye
7 Scout:[Camouflage Tree - Hidden Movement]
8 Bounty Hunter:[Bounty Hunter Tree - Hunter's Mark]
9 Vanguard:[Vanguard Tree - Maximize Cover], OPEN FEAT
10 Vanguard: Surprise Attack +1
11 Vanguard:[Vanguard Tree - Invisible Attacker]
12 Scoundrel:[Missfortune Talent - Dastardly Strike], Deadly Sniper
13 Gunslinger:[Gunslinger Tree - Debilitating Shot]
14 Assassin:[Assassin Tree - Sniping Assassin]
15 Assassin: Mark +1, OPEN FEAT
16 Assassin:[Assassin Tree - Sniping Marksman]
17 Assassin: Mark +2
18 Assassin:[Assassin Tree - Sniping Master], OPEN FEAT
19 Assassin: Mark +3
20 Assassin:[Assassin Tree - Ruthless][/spoiler]

Reasonings behind Talents:
[spoiler]
The two Awarness Talents are there for entry into Bounty Hunter.
Accute Senses helps us spot our target better.
Improved Initative was included simply because the other option, Keen Shot, wouldn't add something usefull since we'll be spending actions Aiming anyway.

The two Camouflage Talents are there for enty into Vanugard, aswell as improving your ability to hide.
Since the entire point is to attack your enemy when he's unprepared, these help.

The level in Bounty Hunter gives us trackers mark, the first Talent to improve your gimmick, CT reduction.

Vanguard is a PrC found in the Clone Wars Campaign Guide.
It centers around forward scouting and information gathering.

The first Talent is more or less there just to qualify for the second one, which will add an extra die to damage when the target is unaware of your attack. Since the easiest way to knock down the CT one step is to infict damage, this helps in that regard.

The scoundrel Talent works like Hunter's Mark, you just need to attack something flat-footed. That's another step down the CT.

The gunslinger Talent works like Hunter's Mark, you just need to aim first. One more step down.

Assassin is in Scum and Villany.
It is just what is sounds like.
Sniping Assassion adds damage.
Marksman is for the situations where you just need the opponent to be flat-footed, aware or not. Since the only thing you're missing out then is that one die from Unseen Attacker, it's good to have in a pinch.
Master is for only having to spend a single swift action to aim.

Just make sure you're not withing point blank range.

And Ruthless is the nail in the coffin. The first shot knocks the taget out cold. The second standard action translates into another shot, which quite probably go over the targets threshold value.

Now, the target is dead.
[/spoiler]

On selection of Feats:
[spoiler]
First level is all the starting feats, the conditional skill focus Rhodian gives you, and the essential Rifle prof. you'll be needing.

Precise shot is not a bad feat, and we'll be needing it later.

Quick Draw is for Gunslinger entry, nothing else.

Careful Shot give a +1 bonus to hit when you aim. Every little ounce of hitting power is welcome, since we don't have a good BAB progression straight through. Also a stepping-stone feat.

Deadeye is there for the same reason as Invisible attacker.
Sniper is there as a stepping stone, as the situation is the same as with Keen Shot. But we need it for the next feat, aswell as entry into Assassin.

Deadly Sniper is in Scum and Villany.
More damage, more attack roll modifiers.
[/spoiler]

We are going to use a Blaster Rifle, Sniper.
Highest damage die for a ranged weapon and it fits thematicly.

So, let's summary:
Attack Bonus:
17(base)+7 (dex)+3 (feats) +1 (suprise shot)
Total: 28

Damage:
2d10 +d10 (deadye)+d10 (invisible attacker) +d10 (deadly sniper) +3 (assassin's mark)+3 (sniping assassin) + 10 (heroic level).
Average: 44
I'm sure this can be pimped higher.
There's weapon modifications to increase damage, and with those open feats one could snag that feat that lets you add full heroic level to damage against targets that haven't acted yet in combat.

With Double Triggers, Bipod and Beam-splitter, this gets even worse.

CT status.
-1 for damage over threshold.
-1 for Hunter's Mark.
-1 for Dastardly Strike.
-1 for Debilitating Shot.

This is where I see a problem in my plan. These are only 4 steps. Not 5.
Originally, I planned to use a stun setting to make it 2 steps down due to damage.
But sniper blasters have no stun setting, and the max range for a stun weapon is 6 squares.

Ah well, 4 steps down the track still proves my point that it's somewhat easy to abuse.
I mean, skipping the hiding angle and going for stunning weapons would make that -5 steps in one shot.
Cerean template and whatnots.
[/spoiler]

Aditions to the X to Y:
Melee Duelist, Melee Duelist Talent Tree, Master of Elegance.
KOTOR, page 47.
Dex to damage instead of Str, functions just like Ataru does for lightsabers, but for other melee weapons.

Mighty Throw, Feat.
Force Unleased, page 33.
Str to attack with thrown weapons and increase to range catergories equal to Str mod.
[Spoiler]
Quote from: Runestar
the most effective optimization is the one you can actually get away with.  :smirk

Quote from: Vinom
(A group of nerds are called a murder because like crows we are anti-social, like shiny things, and often squack at each other over nothing for hours)

I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/quote]
[/spoiler]

Binder? You're Welcome

Zceryll makes Binders go from tier 3 to tier 2.
Cagemarrow is a Genius

Before giving the advice that build X would be better of with Fist of the Forest, take a long, good look at Primal Living. Twice.

A Man In Black

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 53
  • Portrait of a Man in Black holding a Glove
Re: [SWSE] Let's have a general Saga Edition thread, ok?
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2009, 07:21:47 AM »
While, on its face, this is quite good, there's one important thing I'd like to point out. Here's what this maneuver is missing: a limit. It's like 2-handed power attack, for vehicle weapons. Except you're not limited to your BAB. How is this useful?
I note that this means that it takes approximately two minutes for a Vulture fighter to blow up the Death Star.

Toptomcat

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 58
    • Email
Re: [SWSE] Let's have a general Saga Edition thread, ok?
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2009, 03:17:01 PM »
I'd like to contribute an addition of three things to the 'x stat to y bonus' list that work very well in conjunction.

Legacy Era Campaign Guide p. 31: Brawler talent 'Hammerblow'. Double Strength bonus to unarmed attack rolls when holding nothing in either hand.
KOTOR Campaign Guide p. 33: 'Echani Training' feat. Double Strength bonus to unarmed attack damage when making no more than one unarmed attack per round.
Clone Wars Campaign Guide p, 56: 'High Impact' Force tradition talent. Double Strength bonus to any melee damage with a swift action and a DC 15 UTF check.

Shadowhunter

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1003
Re: [SWSE] Let's have a general Saga Edition thread, ok?
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2009, 03:55:51 PM »
I'd like to contribute an addition of three things to the 'x stat to y bonus' list that work very well in conjunction.

Legacy Era Campaign Guide p. 31: Brawler talent 'Hammerblow'. Double Strength bonus to unarmed attack rolls when holding nothing in either hand.
KOTOR Campaign Guide p. 33: 'Echani Training' feat. Double Strength bonus to unarmed attack damage when making no more than one unarmed attack per round.
Clone Wars Campaign Guide p, 56: 'High Impact' Force tradition talent. Double Strength bonus to any melee damage with a swift action and a DC 15 UTF check.
[Spoiler]
Quote from: Runestar
the most effective optimization is the one you can actually get away with.  :smirk

Quote from: Vinom
(A group of nerds are called a murder because like crows we are anti-social, like shiny things, and often squack at each other over nothing for hours)

I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/quote]
[/spoiler]

Binder? You're Welcome

Zceryll makes Binders go from tier 3 to tier 2.
Cagemarrow is a Genius

Before giving the advice that build X would be better of with Fist of the Forest, take a long, good look at Primal Living. Twice.

Toptomcat

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 58
    • Email
Re: [SWSE] Let's have a general Saga Edition thread, ok?
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2009, 07:05:17 PM »
I'd like to contribute an addition of three things to the 'x stat to y bonus' list that work very well in conjunction.

Legacy Era Campaign Guide p. 31: Brawler talent 'Hammerblow'. Double Strength bonus to unarmed attack rolls when holding nothing in either hand.
KOTOR Campaign Guide p. 33: 'Echani Training' feat. Double Strength bonus to unarmed attack damage when making no more than one unarmed attack per round.
Clone Wars Campaign Guide p, 56: 'High Impact' Force tradition talent. Double Strength bonus to any melee damage with a swift action and a DC 15 UTF check.
Togorian is the right choice: Correlian powersuit is not. The Clone Wars Campaign Guide's vacuum pod gives you a +4 unnamed bonus to Strength, which will stack with Scum and Villiany's powered exoskeleton modification- a +2 equipment bonus to strength.
Only provided your GM is into strict RAW, of course, but that's the way the cookie crumbles.

Also, I just got a hold of Galaxy at War, and it provides some amazing goodies for chop-socky types. Unrelenting Assault/Whirling Death/Retalitation Jab provide some wonderful guaranteed Strength damage that's good in conjunction with a Str-heavy unarmed build such as this, and Counterpunch/Defensive Jab/Hijakata Training/K'Thri Training/anything enhancing fighting defensively will get you a LOT of free attacks.

Stunning Shockboxer/the Force Unleashed Campaign Guide infiltrator's Unarmed Stun and Concealed Weapon Expert are potentially interesting, as well.

And never forget Jedi Academy Training Manual's Convection power on a Force-wielding unarmed character. Starts out great and stacking with everything, and the +xd6 it adds to your unarmed strikes can benefit from Force Secrets that add to damaging Force powers, like Force Unleashed's Debilitating Power and the main book's Devastating Power.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2009, 07:17:51 PM by Toptomcat »

Shadowhunter

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1003
Re: [SWSE] Let's have a general Saga Edition thread, ok?
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2009, 08:09:45 PM »
...
Quote from: Toptomcat
Awesomesauce
...
Quote from: Me
this gets disgusting
[Spoiler]
Quote from: Runestar
the most effective optimization is the one you can actually get away with.  :smirk

Quote from: Vinom
(A group of nerds are called a murder because like crows we are anti-social, like shiny things, and often squack at each other over nothing for hours)

I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/quote]
[/spoiler]

Binder? You're Welcome

Zceryll makes Binders go from tier 3 to tier 2.
Cagemarrow is a Genius

Before giving the advice that build X would be better of with Fist of the Forest, take a long, good look at Primal Living. Twice.

Toptomcat

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 58
    • Email
Re: [SWSE] Let's have a general Saga Edition thread, ok?
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2009, 12:09:38 AM »
...
Quote from: Toptomcat
Awesomesauce
...
Quote from: Me
this gets disgusting
Speaking of the monk, there *is* one higher die than the d12 that presents itself as an obvious choice when dealing with an uncapped die type increase.

Emy

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 489
Re: [SWSE] Let's have a general Saga Edition thread, ok?
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2009, 05:19:17 PM »
Thing about free attacks and AoO's is that I'm not sure how you'd apply Ecchani training here, since you can only make one attack a round for it to work.

It specifies "only one unarmed attack this turn." What if you have a quickdraw melee weapon that you use to take your attacks of opportunity? :p

And never forget Jedi Academy Training Manual's Convection power on a Force-wielding unarmed character. Starts out great and stacking with everything, and the +xd6 it adds to your unarmed strikes can benefit from Force Secrets that add to damaging Force powers, like Force Unleashed's Debilitating Power and the main book's Devastating Power.

Yeah, Convection is pretty sweet. I believe you mentioned it for unarmed characters in that previous Jedi advice thread. Combined with all that other stuff that multiplies damage from Str, you can hit very hard, even at low levels.

Aditions to the X to Y:
I'd like to contribute an addition of three things to the 'x stat to y bonus' list that work very well in conjunction.

Added all of these. Thanks.

Speaking of the monk, there *is* one higher die than the d12 that presents itself as an obvious choice when dealing with an uncapped die type increase.

I suppose that means it would be incredible if you could find just one more uncapped die increase. d%

I note that this means that it takes approximately two minutes for a Vulture fighter to blow up the Death Star.

If you swap the Vulture's weapons to 8 light lasers, it has a ~34% chance to blow up the Death Star each round. While building my "budget fleet", I need to keep restraining myself from basing the entire thing around overwhelming assault abuse.

Here's my current iteration of my fleet's bomber. The fighter will probably be quite similar, but with the missiles swapped for lasers.

[spoiler]
Budgetfleet Bomber. Based on the Vulture-class

19000c Vulture-class base cost (1 EP free by default)
1900c Increase Dex score by 2 with Tech Specialist
0c Remove Fire-linked Medium Missile Launcher and 6 medium conc. missiles (+6 EP)
0c Remove Medium Laser Cannon (+1 EP)
200c Add passenger seating (-1 EP)
3000c Add hardpoints (-6 EP)
1000c Add SR 15 shields (-1 EP)
6000c Add heavy concussion missiles x3
500c Replace remote reciever with a basic processor
200c Add Improved Sensor Package
150c Add Darkvision

Astromech droid/mechanic/co-pilot:
4500c R2 unit base cost
1000c Increase Dex score by 2 with Tech Specialist

Total: 37,450 credits


Statblock

Huge starfighter/ground vehicle (walker)
Init +9; Senses Perception +8
----
Defense Ref 15 (flat-footed 11), Fort 22; +3 armor
hp 60; DR 10; Threshold 32
Immune droid traits
----
Speed 6 squares, fly 16 squares (max. velocity 1,180 km/h, fly 4 squares (starship scale)
Ranged laser cannons +7 (see below) and
Ranged 3 heavy concussion missiles +7 (see below)
Fighting Space 3x3 or 1 square (starship scale); Cover none
Base Atk +5; Grp +23
Atk Options autofire (laser cannons)
----
Abilities Str 34, Dex 18, Con -, Int 14
Skills Initiative +8*, Mechanics +15*, Perception +10, Pilot +18*, Use Computer +9
*Pilot droid's skill
----
Crew 0 (expert) plus astromech droid; Passengers none
Cargo none; Consumables 2 days; Carried Craft none
Availability Military; Cost 30,600
Laser Cannons
   Atk +7 (+2 autofire), Dmg 4d10x2
Heavy Concussion Missiles (3)
   Atk +7, Dmg 9d10x5
[/spoiler]

Random

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 17
    • Email
Re: [SWSE] Let's have a general Saga Edition thread, ok?
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2009, 08:56:01 PM »
Slightly necromantic, but there's a couple goodies that should go in here.

-The Direct talent (CWCG 41) appears to be intended to bolster Jedi teamwork. But it, like Enlighten, can target any ally. With it, a Jedi can toss off all his best powers every other round indefinitely.

-Togorians are Large. So are miniaturized E-Webs. Have a couple of gonk droids (droidified power generators) follow you around and do nothing but regulate themselves, and you've got two fists of 3d12 autofire fury. (When I first posted this, I used Dual Gear, but that was in error - it won't let you use both functions at once.) And if you really want to get a book thrown at you, try arguing that these guns no longer "normally require a tripod", so you can mount a lightsaber bayonet on them.

Anklebite

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2009
  • I shall play you the song of my people.
Re: [SWSE] Let's have a general Saga Edition thread, ok?
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2009, 11:58:21 AM »
-Togorians are Large. So are miniaturized E-Webs. Have a couple of gonk droids (droidified power generators) follow you around and do nothing but regulate themselves, and you've got two fists of 3d12 autofire fury. (When I first posted this, I used Dual Gear, but that was in error - it won't let you use both functions at once.) And if you really want to get a book thrown at you, try arguing that these guns no longer "normally require a tripod", so you can mount a lightsaber bayonet on them.

Win.

also, I myself am currently playing an unarmed fighting mechanic in this edition.  the DM has ruled that each "double strength" after the first just adds double my strength to damage, instead of repeatedly doubling it.  however, doing 1d8+20 at level 4 sure seems to work.....  and it could have been worse, he could have ruled the multiplications stack DnD wise.
I do not suffer from paranoia; I enjoy every second of it.
Pioneer of the Ultimate Magus + Sublime Chord + Ultimate Magus combo

Toptomcat

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 58
    • Email
Re: [SWSE] Let's have a general Saga Edition thread, ok?
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2009, 07:52:51 PM »
A good- though feat-heavy- battlefield-control combination is Bantha Rush/Trip/Improved Banta Rush [Force Unleashed]/Battering Attack [Galaxy at War]. On any successful melee attack- no nonsense about making opposed attack rolls or beating the target's Fortitude defense as well as their Reflex defense or only doing it once per encounter- the target is knocked 1 + (1/2 Str mod) squares and is knocked prone.

Another good route is Large race/Pin/Crush/Rancor Crush [Legacy Era] and Running Attack/Martial Arts I/Stava Training [Galaxy at War], with the Expert Grappler talent. While, again, feat-intensive, this is an amazingly good lockdown combination. First of all, Medium-sized humanoids will constitute a much larger fraction of your opponents in a Saga game than a D&D game because of genre considerations. Second, the simplification of grapple mechanics in Saga mean that your opponent doesn't get an opportunity to escape on his turn: the opposed grapple check on your turn is the only roll that happens. Fourth is the sheer numbers: getting the whole combination puts you +12 ahead of a Medium-sized opponent of similar level, allowing you to reliably out-grapple single opponents that are far superior to you by the numbers- doing damage, making them easier for the rest of the party to attack, taking away their action, and moving them down the condition track. It's the 'good-bye, boss encounter' combination- virtually any single-creature encounter falls to it.

Fortuitously, both options also offer yet more Strength synergy for Hammerblow/Echani Training/High Impact builds.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2009, 08:10:54 PM by Toptomcat »

Emy

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 489
Re: [SWSE] Let's have a general Saga Edition thread, ok?
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2009, 04:33:41 AM »
That's great. Strength synergy can get pretty monstrous in SAGA. That's why I mentioned the 'balanced' Neti earlier. If it's allowed, it would be pretty much perfect for an unarmed Jedi melee beast XD

Or, of course, possessing a high-strength Beast with Transfer Essence would work too, but IIRC maxed Dark Side score is NPC only.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2009, 04:41:12 AM by Emy »

Akalsaris

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1143
    • Email
Re: [SWSE] Let's have a general Saga Edition thread, ok?
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2009, 06:12:41 AM »
I'm not terribly familiar with SAGA, but here's some of the stuff I came up with after playing around with the main book for a few hours.  My apologies for any errors that follow!

Making a cheap-ass droid
[spoiler]
What is it: essentially, you get an R2D2 at 33 credits without any of the bells and whistles, the self-pimped lowrider of droids, if you will.  It's a a mobile platform for the following skills: Use computer +13, mechanics +13, pilot +13, perception +6

"Well come on, Red, let's go!"

Description: a red-domed little astromech droid frequently sold as home kits to gullible teenagers on planets furthest from the bright center of the galaxy, the J/K series is a dingy little bucket of bolts that can barely bounce along on its little wheels - and has to think ponderously in order to pick itself up, occasionally blowing a motivator from the effort.  Once in the cockpit of a landspeeder or spacecraft, however, the little guy is almost as competent as a standard R2 unit, albeit liable to explode from the slightest damage.

Stats:
2nd degree
Medium: cost factor x1
Speed: wheels, move-activated, speed 8: cost 16
max weight: 10kg
probe: 2
instrument x3: 15g (a computer jack instrument, a piloting instrument, and a mechanic's thingamabob)
basic processor: acrobatics, jump, perception
speaks binary, common, 2 more
basic processor: 0 credits??
operational for 100hrs
standard sensor array

Str: 12
Dex: 14
Con: -
Int: 17
Wis: 13
Cha: 08

4HP
skills: 1+3= 4.  Use computer +13, mechanics +13, pilot +13, perception +6
feats: skill focus (use computer, mechanics, pilot)
Cost = 33 credits!
[/spoiler]

And a couple of what are probably fairly standard Jedi builds:

Force Mage:[spoiler]

Old Human Jedi 7/Force Adept 1/Jedi Knight 4/Jedi Master 1/Force Disciple 5/Jedi Master +2

32PB
Str: 5
Dex: 9
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 18
Cha: 18

Skills: Use the Force, Initiative, Acrobatics

Feats:
1st: Force Training
1st hmn: Force Boon
1B: Simple Weapons
1B: Lightsabers
1B: Force Sensitivity
2B: Skill Focus (Use the Force)
3rd: Force Training
4B: Skill Focus (Perception)
6th: Force Training
6B: Skill Focus (Initiative)
9th:
12th:
15th:
18th:

-Starts with 8 force points and 4 force powers.

Talents:
1st: Force Perception
3rd: Disciplined Strike
5th: Foresight
7th:

Powers:
-Force Lightning
-Force Slam
-Move Object
-Mind Trick
-Surge
3rd:
-Force Stun
-Force Slam
-Force Slam
-Force Lightning

Equipment:
[/spoiler]


Well-rounded Jedi:
[spoiler]
Human Jedi 7/Jedi Knight?

32PB
Str: 10
Dex: 16
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 14
Cha: 12

Skills: Use the Force, Initiative, Perception, Acrobatics

Feats:
1st: Force Training
1st hmn: Weapon Finesse
1B: Simple Weapons
1B: Lightsabers
1B: Force Sensitivity
2B: Skill Focus (Use the Force)
3rd: Force Training
4B: Improved Disarm?
6th:
6B:
9th:
12th:
15th:
18th:

Talents:
1st: Block
3rd: Deflect
5th:
7th:

Powers:
-Battle Strike
-Mind Trick
-Surge
[/spoiler]

Korwin

  • Domesticated Capuchin Monkey
  • **
  • Posts: 115
Re: [SWSE] Let's have a general Saga Edition thread, ok?
« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2009, 04:51:36 AM »
[spoiler]Assassin.

Race:Rodian
More for fluff than for mechanical power, though I can't imagine any other race who would be vastly superior to this choice.

Advancement: Scout 7/Bounty Hunter 1/Vanguard 3/Scoundrel 1/Gunslinger 1/Assassin 7
Multi-classing madness.


Stats, given Dawn of Defiance standard 28 pt buy and the Rhodian racial modifiers:

Str:11
Dex:19
Con:14
Int:10
Wis:8
Cha:8

You need to maximize your Dexterity for a simple reason, namely to hit. A good Con-score always helps. The lack of Wisdom is somewhat offset by your re-rolls. Your Will Defense will take a hit, but if you do things the way we're planning, the opposition won't have much time to take advantage of that flaw.


Trained In: Endurance, Initative, Perception, Survival, Stealth
Everything you'll be needing from a camouflaged assassin.

Level Progression:
[spoiler]Talents within the [brackets]
Feats outside.

1 Scout:[Awarness Tree - Accute Senses], WP (pistols, rifles, simple), Point Blank Shot, Skill Focus (survival), Shake it Off
2 Scout: Precise Shot
3 Scout:[Awarness Tree - Improved Initative], Quick Draw
4 Scout: Careful Shot
5 Scout:[Camouflage Tree - Improved Stealth]
6 Scout: Sniper, Deadeye
7 Scout:[Camouflage Tree - Hidden Movement]
8 Bounty Hunter:[Bounty Hunter Tree - Hunter's Mark]
9 Vanguard:[Vanguard Tree - Maximize Cover], OPEN FEAT
10 Vanguard: Surprise Attack +1
11 Vanguard:[Vanguard Tree - Invisible Attacker]
12 Scoundrel:[Missfortune Talent - Dastardly Strike], Deadly Sniper
13 Gunslinger:[Gunslinger Tree - Debilitating Shot]
14 Assassin:[Assassin Tree - Sniping Assassin]
15 Assassin: Mark +1, OPEN FEAT
16 Assassin:[Assassin Tree - Sniping Marksman]
17 Assassin: Mark +2
18 Assassin:[Assassin Tree - Sniping Master], OPEN FEAT
19 Assassin: Mark +3
20 Assassin:[Assassin Tree - Ruthless][/spoiler]

Reasonings behind Talents:
[spoiler]
The two Awarness Talents are there for entry into Bounty Hunter.
Accute Senses helps us spot our target better.
Improved Initative was included simply because the other option, Keen Shot, wouldn't add something usefull since we'll be spending actions Aiming anyway.

The two Camouflage Talents are there for enty into Vanugard, aswell as improving your ability to hide.
Since the entire point is to attack your enemy when he's unprepared, these help.

The level in Bounty Hunter gives us trackers mark, the first Talent to improve your gimmick, CT reduction.

Vanguard is a PrC found in the Clone Wars Campaign Guide.
It centers around forward scouting and information gathering.

The first Talent is more or less there just to qualify for the second one, which will add an extra die to damage when the target is unaware of your attack. Since the easiest way to knock down the CT one step is to infict damage, this helps in that regard.

The scoundrel Talent works like Hunter's Mark, you just need to attack something flat-footed. That's another step down the CT.

The gunslinger Talent works like Hunter's Mark, you just need to aim first. One more step down.

Assassin is in Scum and Villany.
It is just what is sounds like.
Sniping Assassion adds damage.
Marksman is for the situations where you just need the opponent to be flat-footed, aware or not. Since the only thing you're missing out then is that one die from Unseen Attacker, it's good to have in a pinch.
Master is for only having to spend a single swift action to aim.

Just make sure you're not withing point blank range.

And Ruthless is the nail in the coffin. The first shot knocks the taget out cold. The second standard action translates into another shot, which quite probably go over the targets threshold value.

Now, the target is dead.
[/spoiler]

On selection of Feats:
[spoiler]
First level is all the starting feats, the conditional skill focus Rhodian gives you, and the essential Rifle prof. you'll be needing.

Precise shot is not a bad feat, and we'll be needing it later.

Quick Draw is for Gunslinger entry, nothing else.

Careful Shot give a +1 bonus to hit when you aim. Every little ounce of hitting power is welcome, since we don't have a good BAB progression straight through. Also a stepping-stone feat.

Deadeye is there for the same reason as Invisible attacker.
Sniper is there as a stepping stone, as the situation is the same as with Keen Shot. But we need it for the next feat, aswell as entry into Assassin.

Deadly Sniper is in Scum and Villany.
More damage, more attack roll modifiers.
[/spoiler]

We are going to use a Blaster Rifle, Sniper.
Highest damage die for a ranged weapon and it fits thematicly.

So, let's summary:
Attack Bonus:
17(base)+7 (dex)+3 (feats) +1 (suprise shot)
Total: 28

Damage:
2d10 +d10 (deadye)+d10 (invisible attacker) +d10 (deadly sniper) +3 (assassin's mark)+3 (sniping assassin) + 10 (heroic level).
Average: 44
I'm sure this can be pimped higher.
There's weapon modifications to increase damage, and with those open feats one could snag that feat that lets you add full heroic level to damage against targets that haven't acted yet in combat.

With Double Triggers, Bipod and Beam-splitter, this gets even worse.

CT status.
-1 for damage over threshold.
-1 for Hunter's Mark.
-1 for Dastardly Strike.
-1 for Debilitating Shot.

This is where I see a problem in my plan. These are only 4 steps. Not 5.
Originally, I planned to use a stun setting to make it 2 steps down due to damage.
But sniper blasters have no stun setting, and the max range for a stun weapon is 6 squares.

Ah well, 4 steps down the track still proves my point that it's somewhat easy to abuse.
I mean, skipping the hiding angle and going for stunning weapons would make that -5 steps in one shot.
Cerean template and whatnots.
[/spoiler]



There is no force in this build, ergo the same build with an droid would be better.
I'll try one droid condition dropper build, I think its possible (with an droid only) to build one, without loosing BAB (not shure if there are enough levels).


« Last Edit: December 22, 2009, 06:08:10 AM by Korwin »

Korwin

  • Domesticated Capuchin Monkey
  • **
  • Posts: 115
Re: [SWSE] Let's have a general Saga Edition thread, ok?
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2009, 06:16:13 AM »
    Here it is. Its possible I missed something. I had 4 feats free, so I took Improved Defenses, and the 3 Martial Arts. With Superior Tech Specialist you could get Dex 28.

    So, let's summary:
    Attack Bonus:
    20(base)+8 (dex)+3 (feats) +4 (surprise attack*) +2 Targeting Package +1 Size
    Total: 38

    * surprise shot in your summary is the Vanguard Class feature?

    Small droid (4th-degree) Jedi 1/soldier 6/bounty hunter 3/gunslinger 1/vanguard 9
[spoiler]
Init +23; Senses darkvision, low-light vision; Perception +17
Languages Basic, Binary, Huttese, 2 unassigned; translator unit (DC 5)

Defenses Ref 47 (flat-footed 36), Fort 37, Will 33; Evasion, Maximize Cover
hp 147; second wind +36/73, 2 per day; SR 20; Threshold 37
Immune droid traits

Speed 6 squares (hovering)
Melee by weapon +22
Ranged commando special rifle +30 (3d10+10)
Fighting Space 1 square; Reach 1 square
Base Atk +20; Grp +23
Atk Options Careful Shot, Dastardly Strike, Deadeye, Deadly Sniper, Hunter's Mark, Invisible Attacker, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Sniper, Targeting Package
Special Actions Indomitable, Quick Draw, self-destruct, Tough as Nails

Abilities Str 14, Dex 26, Con -, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 8
Special Qualities familiar foe +1, surprise attack +4
Talents Acute Senses, Dastardly Strike, Debilitating Shot, Evasion, Hunter's Mark, Improved Initiative, Indomitable, Invisible Attacker, Maximize Cover, Mercenary's Grit, Targeting Package, Tough as Nails
Feats Careful Shot, Deadeye, Deadly Sniper, Droidcraft, Improved Defenses, Martial Arts I, Martial Arts II, Martial Arts III, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Quick Draw, Skill Focus (Stealth), Sniper, Weapon Focus (rifles), Weapon Proficiency (pistols, rifles)
Primary Skills Initiative +23 (may reroll but must keep the result of the reroll even if worse), Mechanics +18, Perception +17 (may reroll but must keep the result of the reroll even if worse), Stealth +35, Survival +15, Use Computer +18
Secondary Skills Acrobatics +18, Climb +12, Deception +9, Endurance +10, Gather Information +9, Jump +12, Knowledge (bureaucracy) +13, Knowledge (galactic lore) +13, Knowledge (life sciences) +13, Knowledge (physical sciences) +13, Knowledge (social sciences) +13, Knowledge (tactics) +13, Knowledge (technology) +13, Persuasion +9, Pilot +18, Ride +18, Swim +12, Treat Injury +10
Systems darkvision, diagnostics package, heuristic processor, hovering locomotion, improved sensor package, integrated comlink, locked access, self-destruct system, stealth shell (+2 equipment bonus to Stealth checks), 2 telescopic hand appendages, tool appendage with stabilized mount, vocabulator, translator unit (DC 5)
Possessions commando special rifle (tech specialist mod; +1 attack) with Improved energy cell and Hair trigger
[/spoiler]


Level by Level

[spoiler]
Droid Condition Dropper

Race: Droid (small one)
Essential Skills: Stealth

Level by level (talents or class features are in italics, feats are in bold), Somethin reprogrammed is green, Base Attack Bonus is underscored

01 Soldier 1 - Indomitable, Armor Profeciency (light, medium), Weapon Prof. simple, Pistols, Rifles, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Free Feat, 1
02 Soldier 2 - Careful Shot, 2
03 Soldier 3 - Though as Nails, Skill Focus: Stealth, 3
04 Soldier 4 - Sniper, 4
05 Soldier 5 - Mercenary's Grit, 5
06 Soldier 6 - , Quick Draw, Droidcraft,, 6
07 Jedi 1 - Targeting Package Lightsaber Prof., Deadeye , 7
08 Gunslinger 1 - Debilitating Shot, 8
09 Vanguard 1 - Acute Senses, Deadly Sniper, 9
10 Vanguard 2 - surprise attack +1, 10
11 Vanguard 3 - Improved Initiative, 11
12 Vanguard 4 - surprise attack +2, Free Feat, 12
13 Vanguard 5- Evasion, 13
14 Bounty Hunter 1 - Hunter's Mark 14
15 Bounty Hunter 2 - familiar foe +1, Free Feat 15
16 Bounty Hunter 3 - Dastardly Strike, 16
17 Vanguard 6 - surprise attack +3, 17
18 Vanguard 7 - Maximize Cover Free Feat, 18
19 Vanguard 8 - surprise attack +4, 19
20 Vanguard 9 - Invisible Attacker, 20 [/list]
[/spoiler]

A Man In Black

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 53
  • Portrait of a Man in Black holding a Glove
Re: [SWSE] Let's have a general Saga Edition thread, ok?
« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2009, 08:40:11 AM »
Small droid (4th-degree) Jedi 1/soldier 6/bounty hunter 3/gunslinger 1/vanguard 9

What you did there. I see it. :lmao

Korwin

  • Domesticated Capuchin Monkey
  • **
  • Posts: 115
Re: [SWSE] Let's have a general Saga Edition thread, ok?
« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2009, 09:24:01 AM »
Its one free feat to reprogramm  ;)