Author Topic: Shadowrun??  (Read 26475 times)

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Kari

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Re: Shadowrun??
« Reply #120 on: October 21, 2009, 02:12:04 AM »
Enhanced Articulation. Check it out.

VennDygrem

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Re: Shadowrun??
« Reply #121 on: October 21, 2009, 02:15:04 AM »
I'll probably take some of the spells like Detect Truth and such, if Generic wants to save some SP. I'm currently figuring on a standard Dwarf Shaman with a detective bent (not sure which totem would work best. Probably something with bonuses to Detection and either illusion or combat). Not a full-out Investigator, but similar in kind. Basically skills he's developed in tracking down his own past (looking to use first rank of amnesia- doesn't know his past up to a certain point, but has intact use of his skills/abilities, etc.

Nanshork

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Re: Shadowrun??
« Reply #122 on: October 21, 2009, 02:18:40 AM »
Enhanced Articulation. Check it out.


....somehow I missed everything except for "+1 reaction bonus".  I'll add it to my wish list now!  Want to answer my other questions?   :p

Edit: Another question.  I assume that the "Upgrading Cyberwear" rule on p.147 of Man and Machine is only talking about upgrading the ranking of the cyberwear and doesn't apply to upgrading from Alpha to Delta grade for example?
« Last Edit: October 21, 2009, 02:46:06 AM by Nanshork »
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JaronK

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Re: Shadowrun??
« Reply #123 on: October 21, 2009, 03:19:42 AM »
Is it assumed that bonuses from seperate cyberware to the same stat stack unless called out different?  EX: Dermal Sheath and Bone Lacings both give Body bonuses.

Yes, they stack unless they say otherwise.

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Oh, and since I've decided that Cerebral Boosters just aren't that necessary (unless I'm missing something awesome that Intelligence gives that's worth the cost), the only Bioware I've come up with as possibly useful is the Suprathyroid Gland and the Sleep Regulator.  Am I missing something?

Intelligence boosts reaction, combat pool, and spell pool, in addition to providing  more skill points for knowledge skills at chargen.  Also, that task pool to all Int based checks can be quite handy for some things (Biotech, Gunnery, all knowledge skills).  However, Cerebral Boosters are Cultured Bioware, which is not normally allowed at chargen... ask the DM just in case. 

As far as non cultured bioware, I like Enhanced Articulation and Muscle Toners.   Cultured adds in the awesome Trauma Dampener.

@Venn:  Since I'm not doing a Shaman, you might want to consider Force 6 Fashion.  It lets you reshape Security Armor so that you can wear it, something not normally possible.  Plus changing what you look like is always nice.

JaronK

Nanshork

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Re: Shadowrun??
« Reply #124 on: October 21, 2009, 03:22:04 AM »
Muscle toners started making me drool when they said that they can boost reaction, unlike Muscle Replacements.

So, DM, what's your ruling on cultured bioware at chargen?
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Generic_PC

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Re: Shadowrun??
« Reply #125 on: October 21, 2009, 03:58:39 AM »
I've decided to go with a fetished Trid Phantasm (3, so 2 spell points). Control Emotions and Analyze Truth (Both 2, Fetishes to cast) and a couple other low level fetish required spells, like acid stream and poltergeist.

Turns out NSCRG doesn't have a monofilament whip in the creator. The availability of 12 means I was unlikely to get it anyway, but I can dream... Because of my horrible strength, an actual whip will be laughable, so I'm thinking of spec-ing in the monofilament whip anyway. Again, assuming I can get one. I don't exactly have a great body, so I really want to avoid  melee combat right now anyway

I have about 120 thousand gold to spend on a lifestyle and banking the rest. Question: from experience, is there a good amount of armour to avoid being hit say... Half the time, consistently?

Also, can I use stuff from the character without knowing the book? Alternately, what does cc stand foe as a book code, and where do all these other spells come from? 
« Last Edit: October 21, 2009, 04:15:37 AM by Generic_PC »
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JaronK

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Re: Shadowrun??
« Reply #126 on: October 21, 2009, 05:08:27 AM »
Turns out NSCRG doesn't have a monofilament whip in the creator. The availability of 12 means I was unlikely to get it anyway, but I can dream... Because of my horrible strength, an actual whip will be laughable, so I'm thinking of spec-ing in the monofilament whip anyway. Again, assuming I can get one. I don't exactly have a great body, so I really want to avoid  melee combat right now anyway

The point of a defensive whip (or chain) isn't to damage your opponent, it's to have out in case someone engages you in melee.  Imagine for the moment you have no melee abilities and a strength of two, and some guy with a sword (reach 1, damage code 8M) attacks you in melee with a skill of 4.  His target number is 3 (because he has reach advantage) and yours is 8 (you're defaulting to strength).  He rolls 8 dice (4+Combat pool) and on average gets 5 successes to your 0 (4 dice with combat pool), so it stages up twice and you take deadly damage.  You're screwed.  Now imagine you have a whip with a skill of 4, and your whip's damage code is 4L (I forget what it really is).  The main thing here is you now have reach.  Okay, so now you can set his TN to 5 (since you have reach advantage) and now he averages 3 successes, while you average 2 (TN 4).  He hits you with a medium hit.  You're hurt, but a medic can patch you up.  It's a huge difference.  Now imagine you're holding a small riot shield (Ballistic 1, Impact 2, +2 all melee TNs for anyone with a reach less than 2).  Suddenly you can use your reach advantage to lower your TN to 3, since his is now 6.  On average he gets just one success and you get 2 or 3, and now you're hitting him.  The damage is pathetically low and he stages it away, but you're unhurt and can now hit him with a stunbolt or something on your turn.

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I have about 120 thousand gold to spend on a lifestyle and banking the rest. Question: from experience, is there a good amount of armour to avoid being hit say... Half the time, consistently?

Note that if you bank your money, it gets cut by IIRC 90% before the game starts, so don't bank it!  Buy fun stuff instead.

Also, armor doesn't prevent being hit, it just lowers the damage code.  This isn't D&D, there is no AC.  Dodging (using Combat Pool) is how you avoid getting hit at all, though the bigger thing that keeps you from getting hit is cover and visual concealment (SR is realistic that way).  How effective armor is depends on your body score (the higher your body score, the more chances you have to beat the power of the attack and lower the damage) and your quickness score (if your armor exceeds your quickness, you take nasty penalties).  Remember that Form Fitting Full Body Armor doesn't make quickness penalties so it's quite useful.  I also like throwing the Thermal Dampening Mod (Cannon Compendium) which makes you very hard to detect with sensors and thermographic vision.

For a mage with a relatively low body score, armor really won't help that much (avoid getting shot!).  The mods are more important... Thermal Dampening, for example.  Also, Mortimer's Greatcoat increases the concealability of everything on you by 50%, and that's handy.  With that said, "geek the mage" is a canon rule in Shadowrun, so it's wise to look like a street sam even if you're not.  Thus, having some armor and a gun that you point at enemies while casting spells can provide just a little more security.  Also, a flash pack works wonders, and remember that you can ignore visual by going astral and firing off spells while percieving (though that makes you vulnerable to astral attack).

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Also, can I use stuff from the character without knowing the book? Alternately, what does cc stand foe as a book code, and where do all these other spells come from? 

CC is Cannon Compendium.  The other spells are Magic in the Shadows.  Man and Machine is the other important book to look at.

JaronK

Kari

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Re: Shadowrun??
« Reply #127 on: October 21, 2009, 09:11:57 AM »
Want to answer my other questions?   :p
Patience! It takes time! Actually, my last post was from my phone. It turns out, this forum has a mobile-friendly version, but it is very, very, very light on features. I can't quote, and all code must be typed by hand, so while I can read, and might post a little bit, most questions need to wait until I get to a computer. I've been working overnights lately, so this means first thing in the morning. Now, on to this morning's round of answers.

Question: I want to be ambidextrous but more for the idea.  Not really looking at going into fighting with two weapons at the same time (thought I can see using a gun in one hand and stabbing someone with a hand blade with the other).  Which ambidexterity edge would you suggest?
The system doesn't allow for fighting that way anyway - while shooting most Semi-Automatic Weapons is a Simple Action, melee combat is a Complex Action. Further, using two weapons at once requires you to split your dice pool between each weapon, making it even harder to accomplish anything. And even if you have both in hand at once, the system doesn't consider it two weapon fighting unless you're literally attacking with both at the same time. Having shot a gun on your action, and then using your melee weapon to defend yourself on someone else's, doesn't actually count. (Nor does the system make any allowance for 'handedness'.)

So, in the long run, Ambidexterity isn't really going to help you at all anyway. :)

Is it assumed that bonuses from seperate cyberware to the same stat stack unless called out different?  EX: Dermal Sheath and Bone Lacings both give Body bonuses.
Bonuses always stack unless stated otherwise. Common sense does need to rule a bit here, but overall, the writers were pretty good about including the exclusions. Make sure to check the entries of both, however, especially if they're in separate books. (NSRCG may not know.)

Edit: Another question.  I assume that the "Upgrading Cyberwear" rule on p.147 of Man and Machine is only talking about upgrading the ranking of the cyberwear and doesn't apply to upgrading from Alpha to Delta grade for example?
Actually, it refers to both - any upgrade follows the same formula, you just end up with that Essence 'hole' if the new implant costs less Essence than the old. Additionally, you could upgrade both at the same time (for example, going from a Standard grade Wired Reflexes 2 to a Delta grade Wired Reflexes 3, which would actually give you a net total of a .5 Essence hole to fill up as you wished. Of course, the nearly 4 million nuyen cost might be a bit of a hurdle...)

So, DM, what's your ruling on cultured bioware at chargen?
I'm afraid not. Standard Bioware only, sorry.

Turns out NSCRG doesn't have a monofilament whip in the creator. The availability of 12 means I was unlikely to get it anyway, but I can dream... Because of my horrible strength, an actual whip will be laughable, so I'm thinking of spec-ing in the monofilament whip anyway. Again, assuming I can get one. I don't exactly have a great body, so I really want to avoid  melee combat right now anyway

The point of a defensive whip (or chain) isn't to damage your opponent, it's to have out in case someone engages you in melee.  Imagine for the moment you have no melee abilities and a strength of two, and some guy with a sword (reach 1, damage code 8M) attacks you in melee with a skill of 4.  His target number is 3 (because he has reach advantage) and yours is 8 (you're defaulting to strength).  He rolls 8 dice (4+Combat pool) and on average gets 5 successes to your 0 (4 dice with combat pool), so it stages up twice and you take deadly damage.  You're screwed.  Now imagine you have a whip with a skill of 4, and your whip's damage code is 4L (I forget what it really is).  The main thing here is you now have reach.  Okay, so now you can set his TN to 5 (since you have reach advantage) and now he averages 3 successes, while you average 2 (TN 4).  He hits you with a medium hit.  You're hurt, but a medic can patch you up.  It's a huge difference.  Now imagine you're holding a small riot shield (Ballistic 1, Impact 2, +2 all melee TNs for anyone with a reach less than 2).  Suddenly you can use your reach advantage to lower your TN to 3, since his is now 6.  On average he gets just one success and you get 2 or 3, and now you're hitting him.  The damage is pathetically low and he stages it away, but you're unhurt and can now hit him with a stunbolt or something on your turn.
Thank you for answering this, and I'd like to state that this is a very, very good explanation. Most mages can, and should, carry a melee weapon for this very reason, and have some training with it. To further note, if it's possible to make a weapon focus out of it (I think whips can't, but I'll need to check), weapon foci are often very, -VERY- useful to mages, since the Force of the weapon foci is added to your dice for the combat test, just as if you had additional points in the skill.

Quote
Quote
I have about 120 thousand gold to spend on a lifestyle and banking the rest. Question: from experience, is there a good amount of armour to avoid being hit say... Half the time, consistently?

Note that if you bank your money, it gets cut by IIRC 90% before the game starts, so don't bank it!  Buy fun stuff instead.

Also, armor doesn't prevent being hit, it just lowers the damage code.  This isn't D&D, there is no AC.  Dodging (using Combat Pool) is how you avoid getting hit at all, though the bigger thing that keeps you from getting hit is cover and visual concealment (SR is realistic that way).  How effective armor is depends on your body score (the higher your body score, the more chances you have to beat the power of the attack and lower the damage) and your quickness score (if your armor exceeds your quickness, you take nasty penalties).  Remember that Form Fitting Full Body Armor doesn't make quickness penalties so it's quite useful.  I also like throwing the Thermal Dampening Mod (Cannon Compendium) which makes you very hard to detect with sensors and thermographic vision.

For a mage with a relatively low body score, armor really won't help that much (avoid getting shot!).  The mods are more important... Thermal Dampening, for example.  Also, Mortimer's Greatcoat increases the concealability of everything on you by 50%, and that's handy.  With that said, "geek the mage" is a canon rule in Shadowrun, so it's wise to look like a street sam even if you're not.  Thus, having some armor and a gun that you point at enemies while casting spells can provide just a little more security.  Also, a flash pack works wonders, and remember that you can ignore visual by going astral and firing off spells while percieving (though that makes you vulnerable to astral attack).
Remaining nuyen is reduced to 10% of what's left (yep, chop off that last digit), and then you receive 3d6*100 nuyen starting money. Never spend more Karma on nuyen than you have to - buy the stuff you want, need, or whatever, then reroute the remaining karma into additional skills, spells, attributes, whatever.

Form Fitting Full Body Armor is perhaps the single most useful piece of armor any character can have, and I highly recommend everyone pick up a suit. It also stacks well with other armors, such as greatcoats, longcoats, clothing, whatever.

Also, just to expand a little bit - Dodging is done with your Combat Pool dice, and only those dice. Mages in particular often like to keep their Combat Pool reserved for Dodging or Damage Resistance (since you use Spell Pool to improve Sorcery tests and Drain tests.) It's also the only dodge you have. Attacking is done against set Target Numbers, only modified by conditions at the time of the attack, such as cover, visibility, movement, possibly recoil (for guns) or reach (for melee), and possible augmentations (Smartlink, for example, reduces the TN for firing a gun). And just to reiterate, tactics, tactics, tactics. Just like an RL firefight, the first thing to do is get cover, get out of the way, make it harder for them to shoot you. And yes - mages are very high damage potential, so they really do tend to attract fire first. Shadowrun combat tends to weed out the unwary fast. Expect to see enemies using intelligent tactics. No stupid goblins here to charge in and die in an instant!

Kuroimaken

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Re: Shadowrun??
« Reply #128 on: October 21, 2009, 10:22:41 AM »
I can also use plenty of advice with equipment. Keeping in mind I will be completely clean of bio and cyberware.

EDIT: 86k Nuyen in my account right now.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2009, 10:24:53 AM by Kuroimaken »
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For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


JaronK

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Re: Shadowrun??
« Reply #129 on: October 21, 2009, 03:56:59 PM »
Form Fitting Full Body Armor is perhaps the single most useful piece of armor any character can have, and I highly recommend everyone pick up a suit. It also stacks well with other armors, such as greatcoats, longcoats, clothing, whatever.

As a note, it stacks but follows the rules for layering armor, so it only provides a half benefit (though mods apply in full).  For anyone who doesn't know what that means, check the layering rules in SR3 main book.  FFFBA is great armor, but it does cost a good bit and if you've got a low body score it might not matter much, so be aware of that.

JaronK

VennDygrem

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Re: Shadowrun??
« Reply #130 on: October 21, 2009, 05:34:13 PM »
Any recommendations on Shamanistic tradition?

JaronK

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Re: Shadowrun??
« Reply #131 on: October 21, 2009, 05:45:32 PM »
Any recommendations on Shamanistic tradition?

Whatever works for you, really, and doesn't make a penalty to the stuff you want to use.  I like cats for the style points, really, but almost anything can work.  It just depends on what spells you think will need those extra dice.  With that said, something with a bonus to city spirits usually helps (because you're so often running in a factory or office or base, all of which are city domain), and manipulation and divination are probably the most flexible spell types (though a bonus to combat spells can certainly help even if you only take one).  Voodoo does give you possession as an option, which is something to consider, but that certainly has its drawbacks too.  Bat is nice for the bonus to all manipulation spells and divination spells, but is worthless under direct sunlight (luckily most runs happen at night, but that's still a nasty penalty).  Boar has some great combat advantages, but the difficulty in fleeing a bad fight can be deadly.  Monkey gets a bonus to hearth and city spirits (which is awesome!) as well as all manipulation spells (whee!) and a penalty to combat spells (you could chose to use manipulation spells as attack spells, though Stunbolt is admittedly better).

Really, there's lots of good options out there and unlike D&D, picking the wrong one isn't going to hurt that badly, so pick what feels right.

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VennDygrem

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Re: Shadowrun??
« Reply #132 on: October 21, 2009, 06:10:33 PM »
Also, it's been noted that Foci are expensive, but useful. However, being expensive, they are really expensive. Does it particularly pay to start off buying/bonding-with one/more, or is it generally accepted practice to do this all later on after a few runs? Which ones would be priority, and is it worth buying a force 1 focus, or should one wait to afford one above that? It has already been noted that a weapon focus is useful, but those seem particularly expensive.

JaronK

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Re: Shadowrun??
« Reply #133 on: October 21, 2009, 06:22:24 PM »
Also, it's been noted that Foci are expensive, but useful. However, being expensive, they are really expensive. Does it particularly pay to start off buying/bonding-with one/more, or is it generally accepted practice to do this all later on after a few runs? Which ones would be priority, and is it worth buying a force 1 focus, or should one wait to afford one above that? It has already been noted that a weapon focus is useful, but those seem particularly expensive.

I've never started with any foci.  Weapon Foci are amazingly good in astral combat (where reach is rare) but as you say they're one of the costliest things out there.  So, I never start with them and almost never buy them... I might steal them from a downed enemy if I see one but that's about it.  They're good, don't get me wrong, but they cost an arm and a leg (actually, they often cost more than a cyberarm and cyberleg!).

JaronK

Kuroimaken

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Re: Shadowrun??
« Reply #134 on: October 21, 2009, 06:27:52 PM »
Still need help locating the most cost-efficient equipment for a physical adept.  :D
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


Kari

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Re: Shadowrun??
« Reply #135 on: October 21, 2009, 06:34:46 PM »
I can also use plenty of advice with equipment. Keeping in mind I will be completely clean of bio and cyberware.

EDIT: 86k Nuyen in my account right now.
Whatever you want. I recommend buying a vehicle and a few Credsticks. (Credsticks serve as IDs as well as bank cards. Check page 239 of the core book for more info.) Beyond that, it's up to you.

Any recommendations on Shamanistic tradition?
There's no right or wrong tradition. Pick the one you like and run with it. (Jaron's info is good.)

Also, it's been noted that Foci are expensive, but useful. However, being expensive, they are really expensive. Does it particularly pay to start off buying/bonding-with one/more, or is it generally accepted practice to do this all later on after a few runs? Which ones would be priority, and is it worth buying a force 1 focus, or should one wait to afford one above that? It has already been noted that a weapon focus is useful, but those seem particularly expensive.
I almost never used foci as a player. YEs, they can be useful, but, like you said, holy GODS expensive. I think the highest foci I ever had was a Force 2 Weapon Focus katana... for my physad who specialized in katanas. The only one I might -ever- suggest buying during creation would be a weapon focus, and that's primarily because they can be so -damned- useful with a good reach, especially in astral combat.

JaronK

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Re: Shadowrun??
« Reply #136 on: October 21, 2009, 06:48:10 PM »
Still need help locating the most cost-efficient equipment for a physical adept.  :D

What kind of adept?  Martial Artist?  Melee adept?  Gun Fu Gunbunny?  Sniper?  Medic?  "Adept" is a method of how you do what you do, but says nothing about what you do.  Need more information!

JaronK

Nanshork

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Re: Shadowrun??
« Reply #137 on: October 21, 2009, 06:57:23 PM »
I'm kind of surprised we don't have a weapons expert, or a troll running around with a gatling gun.   :p
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Kuroimaken

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Re: Shadowrun??
« Reply #138 on: October 21, 2009, 07:39:45 PM »
Still need help locating the most cost-efficient equipment for a physical adept.  :D

What kind of adept?  Martial Artist?  Melee adept?  Gun Fu Gunbunny?  Sniper?  Medic?  "Adept" is a method of how you do what you do, but says nothing about what you do.  Need more information!

JaronK

I do believe I mentioned I was going to make the kung fu dude that makes people go asplode?

No?

Complete with Delay Damage 2 so I can give someone a pat in the back and make his head go FWAKOOM?

No?

Well... I think it pretty much sums my char up...
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


JaronK

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Re: Shadowrun??
« Reply #139 on: October 21, 2009, 07:45:44 PM »
Ah.  In that case, I'd also need to know your Quickness and Body scores (to know what kind of armor is appropriate).  But Shock Gloves are always handy for a martial artist when you want to lay waste to your enemies.   Forearm Guards are handy for close in armor.  Some Thermographic Shades are always handy just in case.  Don't forget the Close Combat manuever by the way... without it anyone with reach will destroy you. 

JaronK