Immortality: A Guide to Eternal Life

[snakeman830]

After 10,000 years, you're garunteed to have it, at least once.  Every century after that you are garunteed to get it again.

[Negative Zero]

After 10,000 years, you're garunteed to have it, at least once.  Every century after that you are garunteed to get it again.

Not quite. You're never guaranteed to have it. Even after ten million or ten trillion years, you aren't guaranteed to get it even once. It's just very, very likely that you'll get it.

Great work, Saxony. This is definitely going to come in handy the next time I play a cha-based undead in a planehopping game. ("Be right back, guys, I'm going to the Forgotten Realms for ten millenia.")

[snakeman830]

Each additional 100 years of existence affords
an additional 1% chance of a more mature connection, plus an
additional 1% chance for each previous evolution.

Cumulative chance both for centuries passed and previous evolutions.  A 10,000 year-old undead is garunteed to have it at least once.  Every century after that has a 102% or higher chance of having it (good luck attempting to convince your DM that you get it twice at 150 centuries)

Also, Fast Healing doesn't stack.  No matter how many times the template is applied, you still only have Fast Healing 3.

[Negative Zero]

...huh. See, I read that as "Each 100 years, you get another roll with that 1% chance, +1% per previous evolution." However, I see why you read "Each 100 years, you get another roll, with a 1% higher chance than last time."

[PhaedrusXY]

Great work, Saxony. This is definitely going to come in handy the next time I play a cha-based undead in a planehopping game. ("Be right back, guys, I'm going to the Forgotten Realms for ten millenia.")

I think you mean Far Realm, not Forgotten Realms.

[Negative Zero]

Great work, Saxony. This is definitely going to come in handy the next time I play a cha-based undead in a planehopping game. ("Be right back, guys, I'm going to the Forgotten Realms for ten millenia.")

I think you mean Far Realm, not Forgotten Realms.

Whoops, you're right.
I must have forgotten which realm I was talking about.

[Jelvoden]

It's from the 3.0 era, but the Grim Psion provides undeath at 1st level, turn immunity at 6th, and lich-like persistence at 10th. You'll lose 4 manifester levels in total.

[PhaedrusXY]

It's from the 3.0 era, but the Grim Psion provides undeath at 1st level, turn immunity at 6th, and lich-like persistence at 10th. You'll lose 4 manifester levels in total.

Wow... that's a freakin' awesome PrC. I'd totally forgotten about that. I definitely want to play one of these now... An Ardent/Grim Psion wouldn't even need Practiced Manifester to keep from falling behind, as they get +1 ML at each level. They only miss out on powers known at four of the levels.

[Negative Zero]

Is stuff like that kosher? I mean, 3.0 psionics things (particularly the web enhancements) that weren't updated to 3.5. If so, Empowered Psicrystal certainly has potential.

[MasterVerhoffin]

...

Out of curiosity, where is Steal Steel from? I don't recognize it.

It's from the 3.0 era, but the Grim Psion provides undeath at 1st level, turn immunity at 6th, and lich-like persistence at 10th. You'll lose 4 manifester levels in total.

Nice catch; never even knew that one existed. Consider it added.

[Alastar]

Hey, I can't find where it says elans are immortals...  Could you give me a page please, or an SRD reference?

Also, does that mean they can get +3 to all mental stats?

[PhaedrusXY]

Hey, I can't find where it says elans are immortals...  Could you give me a page please, or an SRD reference?

Also, does that mean they can get +3 to all mental stats?

They don't age at all, so they shouldn't get the +3, or the physical penalties.

[MasterVerhoffin]

Hey, I can't find where it says elans are immortals...  Could you give me a page please, or an SRD reference?

Also, does that mean they can get +3 to all mental stats?

They don't age at all, so they shouldn't get the +3, or the physical penalties.

There's an aging table on p. 16 of the XPH but it's wrong. It lists their venerable age as 1,000 and maximum age as that +10d% but, if you check the errata (or here), it changes the maximum age to - (IE, no maximum).

According to the same table they do, in fact, have middle, old, and venerable age categories (200, 400, and 1,000) but no maximum, so they do get bonuses/penalties as written. I could see the DM ruling that they don't get either, though, as the text describes them as ageless.

[Saxony]

Each additional 100 years of existence affords
an additional 1% chance of a more mature connection, plus an
additional 1% chance for each previous evolution.

Cumulative chance both for centuries passed and previous evolutions.  A 10,000 year-old undead is garunteed to have it at least once.  Every century after that has a 102% or higher chance of having it (good luck attempting to convince your DM that you get it twice at 150 centuries)

Also, Fast Healing doesn't stack.  No matter how many times the template is applied, you still only have Fast Healing 3.

First off, I believe you are incorrect. Let me quote that passage from Libris Mortis word-for-word in order to prove that belief.

"
Evolved Undead Template:
(Skipping the flavor paragraph)
...
When an intelligent undead creature survives for 100 years or more (or when the DM decides to create an undead monster with a twist), there is a 1% chance that its connection to the Negative Energy Plane grows more mature. When this "evolution" occurs, the undead gains this template. Each additional years 100 years of existence affords an additional 1% chance of a more mature connection, plus an additional 1% chance for each previous evolution. For example, if an undead creature's connection to the Negative Energy Plane evolved three times previously, it has a 4% chance to gain one more step of maturation the next time its age requires an evolution check.
...
"

The example section does not include "total age in centuries" or "time in centuries since last evolution" as a parameter for how likely the undead is to gain another template the next century. Only how many templates it already has. Thus, we can assume that the chance of evolution per century is not cumulative across the centuries.

A separate reasoning is that the passage uses the wording "Since the undead has x number of templates, the next time it has the make an evolution check, it has (x+1)% chance to gain another template". The same argument applies; the example doesn't mention total age or time passed since last evolution. Every "next time" gives the undead the same chances. Again, we can assume that the chance of evolution per century is not cumulative across the centuries.

Thank the gods, otherwise, I'd be doing icky math again.

I thought that the Fast Healing stacked because Fast Healing given by the "Fast Healing" Epic feat does. Looking through the Players Handbook, Monster Manual, and Dungeon Master's Guide, I can't find mention of Fast Healing not stacking in their Fast Healing entries. Can you cite your source?

Oh, by the way, if someone wants an easy-to-plug-in equation for how many years it takes to gain x templates, it's: "amount of time required on average to gain x templates = ln(x*1.781072418)*10,000 Years" in case I forgot to mention the "simple" form. This formula is inaccurate for small numbers of x, something Euler didn't really pin down and I don't want to try, either. It's very accurate after the point where you really don't want to add up the numbers in your head (Only off by a 1,000 years by x=6).

[snakeman830]

"
...
When an intelligent undead creature survives for 100 years or more (or when the DM decides to create an undead monster with a twist), there is a 1% chance that its connection to the Negative Energy Plane grows more mature. When this "evolution" occurs, the undead gains this template. Each additional years 100 years of existence affords an additional 1% chance of a more mature connection, plus an additional 1% chance for each previous evolution. For example, if an undead creature's connection to the Negative Energy Plane evolved three times previously, it has a 4% chance to gain one more step of maturation the next time its age requires an evolution check.
...
"

Bolded portions for emphasis.

As you can see, both parts use the exact same language: "an additional 1% chance".  This means that both are to be treated the same and thus both cumulative.  Assuming the undead has the absolute worst of luck, he still has an increasing chance every 100 years of obtaining the template.  After 100 centuries, it totals up to a garuntee of 100%.

If the time existing was meant to be treated as a flat 1% chance, then it would be written more along the lines of "Each additional 100 years of existance, the undead has a 1% chance to form a more mature connection plus an additional 1% chance for each previous evolution"  It would have been stated as an absolute instead of those key words "an additional".

Thus, each century of existance increases the chance of evolving, whether they have evolved before or not.

The fast healing bit, I'm quoting other people on.  I haven't actually seen rules regarding this either.

[PhaedrusXY]

So... someone who is good at statistics (I've had some, but forgotten it) should calculate when you have a 50% chance of getting it the first time.  I think it will be after only a couple thousand years or so.

[McPoyo]

So... someone who is good at statistics (I've had some, but forgotten it) should calculate when you have a 50% chance of getting it the first time.  I think it will be after only a couple thousand years or so.

5000 years. since 1% per cycle would require 50 cycles for a 50% chance.

[Agita]

So... someone who is good at statistics (I've had some, but forgotten it) should calculate when you have a 50% chance of getting it the first time.  I think it will be after only a couple thousand years or so.

5000 years. since 1% per cycle would require 50 cycles for a 50% chance.

Earlier, actually, as you also have a chance to acquire the template before that, which would further raise the chances.

[McPoyo]

So... someone who is good at statistics (I've had some, but forgotten it) should calculate when you have a 50% chance of getting it the first time.  I think it will be after only a couple thousand years or so.

5000 years. since 1% per cycle would require 50 cycles for a 50% chance.

Earlier, actually, as you also have a chance to acquire the template before that, which would further raise the chances.

50% chance of getting it the first time, he asked, though.

[PhaedrusXY]

So... someone who is good at statistics (I've had some, but forgotten it) should calculate when you have a 50% chance of getting it the first time.   I think it will be after only a couple thousand years or so.

5000 years. since 1% per cycle would require 50 cycles for a 50% chance.

No, that's not correct. I don't mean "how many years would it take to get to the point where you have a 50% chance of getting it in that year alone". That's a very easy calculation.

I mean "how many years does it take for you to have a total chance of 50% of having acquired the template, including all the years up to that point". That's a lot more difficult. You have to factor in all the probabilities for every year until the total chance is 50%.


Edit: I looked up the formula. He'd have about a 50% chance in just under 1000 years.

The calculation is as follows:
The odds of not acquiring the template after 1 century is 99% (0.99)
The odds of not acquiring the template after 2 centuries is 99% times 98%. (0.99*0.98)
The odds of not acquiring the template after 3 centuries is 99% times 98% times 97%. (0.99*0.98*0.97)

If you extrapolate that out, in ten centuries it comes out to about 50%.
In 3000 years, there is about a 95% chance he'd have acquired the template at least once.
In 4000 years, it is over 99%.