Author Topic: Swifthunter build needs help and advice  (Read 3322 times)

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heffroncm

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Swifthunter build needs help and advice
« on: June 07, 2008, 03:03:31 AM »
*EDIT*
Talked with my DM some more.  We worked out new abilities for my character and redid the class levels slightly.

Race is immutable.  I might be able to change the ability scores, but I don't want to press my luck as the DM basically handed these too me when it's supposed to be 32 point buy (I'm well over 32 points given the Wood Elf racial mods).  Feats, favored enemies, equipment, and class levels are up for change.  The DM allowed me to swap out class skills, enabling me to gain Disable Device and Open Lock on both my Ranger and Scout skill lists.  This is for a kind of "last hurrah" 3.5 game for me, I expect this campaign to make the switch to 4e soon.  I've been all but assured a Periapt of Wisdom before I get spells to cast, and AFAIK Ranger spells don't especially benefit from a high WIS.

Wood Elf Ranger 2 / Scout 5 / Cleric 1

Starting Abilities
STR  8
DEX 20
CON 13
INT 14
WIS 11
CHA 12

01: Scout 1: Point Blank Shot
02: Scout 2:
03: Cleric 1: Air Devotion, Travel Devotion, Precise Shot
04: Scout 3: +1 CON
05: Ranger 1: Track, Favored Enemy: Arcanists +2 (CM Arcane Hunter alt feature)
06: Scout 4: Swifthunter (Bonus Feat), Favored Enemy: Undead +4, Improved Skirmish
07: Scout 5
08: Ranger 2: Rapid Shot (Combat Style), +1 DEX

This starts me off with 3 uses of Travel Devotion per day and all the basics I need to employ them well.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2008, 06:11:46 PM by heffroncm »

blargney the second

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Re: Swifthunter build needs help and advice
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2008, 06:49:12 AM »
Anklet of Translocation is fantastic for a couple of skirmishing full attacks per day.

heffroncm

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Re: Swifthunter build needs help and advice
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2008, 09:10:18 AM »
Anklet of Translocation is fantastic for a couple of skirmishing full attacks per day.

Improved Skirmish recquires 20ft of movement.  However, I did spot the Rogues Vest, which seems full of win.

dman11235

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Re: Swifthunter build needs help and advice
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2008, 12:20:50 PM »
I'd like to point out that RAW scouts have DD on their list (see the Errata) and rangers can get it and trapfinding in exchange for track.  Also, rangers/scouts do benefit from high wisdom: spot/listen.  And will saves.

Note then that the RV only applies to sneak attack.  You could probably get it applied to sudden strike, but skirmish would be a stretch.  Worth trying though.  One level of cleric and Travel Devotion.  Heck, make your domains either pride and travel, or air and travel.  Swap out the domain powers for air and travel for the domain feats.  If you have low charisma, no worries, buy night sticks.  This allows you to move your speed as a swift action.  You may want to up your wisdom by 1 so you can use level 1 cleric spells, there are some nice ones for a SH:

Blessed Aim
Divine Favor
Resurgence
Conviction (only if you don't have someone else giving you morale bonuses to saves)
Entropic Shield

domain:
Longstrider (travel domain)

Continuing your build, taking FE (evil) would be a good thing, you can get it via the Stalker of Kharash PrC in BoED.  Two levels gets you FE (evil).  Also, the Darkstalker feat is a must if you rely on hiding at all.

Equipment: +1 force, splitting, wounding, and then your pick of +2 from there.  Seeking is nice.  Masterwork tools of important skills (see PHB, 50 gp for a +2 circumstance bonus to skills) and maybe a competence ring (see DMG and MiC for custom item rules, skills are bonus^2*100 gp) for absolutely necessary skills.  If you can reliably get SA damage (i.e., are successfully hiding) you can take a level of Sword Sage eventually and pick up the Assassin's Stance.  Expeditious Dodge as well is something you might want to take (RotW), and definitely take if you need dodge (it can replace dodge).  Boots of Striding and Springing, or really just the striding part, plus the Ring of Entropic Defense nets you a 50% miss chance vs incoming ranged attacks.  Coupled with Air Devotion and hiding, you pretty much can't be hit.
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Smudgy

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Re: Swifthunter build needs help and advice
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2008, 12:27:49 PM »
I'd also like to point out the Scouts Headband in the MIC. Fits flavor-wise, and is helpful for seeing those foes with total concealment, invisibility, and the like.

heffroncm

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Re: Swifthunter build needs help and advice
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2008, 12:53:55 PM »
I'd like to point out that RAW scouts have DD on their list (see the Errata) and rangers can get it and trapfinding in exchange for track.  Also, rangers/scouts do benefit from high wisdom: spot/listen.  And will saves.
Thanks for pointing out the Errata.  I knew Rangers could get it and Trapfinding in exchange for Track, but I didn't want to give up Track for free to essentially gain a single skill, so I asked my DM to change up the class skills of Scout and Ranger for me.  He agreed.

I'm not sure what I would want to give up for small gains on Search, Spot, an dWill saves.  Less Int means less skill points, and I need to cover all the Rogue skills and all the outdoorsy skills as well as combat-neccessary gems like Tumble, Balance, and Escape Artist.

Note then that the RV only applies to sneak attack.  You could probably get it applied to sudden strike, but skirmish would be a stretch.  Worth trying though. 
Maybe I have a different copy of the Magic Item Compendium, but the Rogue's Vest specifically mentions Sudden Strike and Skirmish.

One level of cleric and Travel Devotion.  Heck, make your domains either pride and travel, or air and travel.  Swap out the domain powers for air and travel for the domain feats.  If you have low charisma, no worries, buy night sticks.  This allows you to move your speed as a swift action.  You may want to up your wisdom by 1 so you can use level 1 cleric spells, there are some nice ones for a SH:

Blessed Aim
Divine Favor
Resurgence
Conviction (only if you don't have someone else giving you morale bonuses to saves)
Entropic Shield

domain:
Longstrider (travel domain)

Continuing your build, taking FE (evil) would be a good thing, you can get it via the Stalker of Kharash PrC in BoED.  Two levels gets you FE (evil).  Also, the Darkstalker feat is a must if you rely on hiding at all.

Equipment: +1 force, splitting, wounding, and then your pick of +2 from there.  Seeking is nice.  Masterwork tools of important skills (see PHB, 50 gp for a +2 circumstance bonus to skills) and maybe a competence ring (see DMG and MiC for custom item rules, skills are bonus^2*100 gp) for absolutely necessary skills.  If you can reliably get SA damage (i.e., are successfully hiding) you can take a level of Sword Sage eventually and pick up the Assassin's Stance.  Expeditious Dodge as well is something you might want to take (RotW), and definitely take if you need dodge (it can replace dodge).  Boots of Striding and Springing, or really just the striding part, plus the Ring of Entropic Defense nets you a 50% miss chance vs incoming ranged attacks.  Coupled with Air Devotion and hiding, you pretty much can't be hit.

I'm straying away from further multiclassing.  2 feats, an alignemnt change, slowing down my Skirmish progression by 2 levels, and Exalted recquirements for Favored Enemy: Evil is not worth it for this character, especially with it being the more limited 3.0 Favored Enemy.  A Cleric level is an interesting option, the opportunity cost would be minimal and it would certainly gain me a lot.  I'll have to talk to my DM and find out if Nightsticks are even available, what little I've played shows this to be a fairly low-item campaign with most things being unavailable for purchase.

Boots of Strinding and Springing along with the Ring of Entropic Defense are items I'll definitely be requesting.

I'd also like to point out the Scouts Headband in the MIC. Fits flavor-wise, and is helpful for seeing those foes with total concealment, invisibility, and the like.

Thanks for pointing this out.  I can probably get it as a Scout's Headband of Wisdom, too.

AfterCrescent

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Re: Swifthunter build needs help and advice
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2008, 02:38:04 PM »
<snip> Exalted recquirements for Favored Enemy: Evil is not worth it for this character, especially with it being the more limited 3.0 Favored Enemy. 
Don't know how helpful it is, but BoED and Stalker of Kharash are most definitely 3.5 edition. The Favored Enemy - Evil is an exception to normal favored enemy rules and specifically applies to all evil enemies (and in fact stacks with ranger's favored enemy bonuses). So Favored Enemy undead and Stalker of Kharash would stack bonuses against Evil Undead.
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pfooti

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Re: Swifthunter build needs help and advice
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2008, 03:12:31 PM »
Whether you multiclass or not, Travel Devotion (complete champion) is a must-have for any Swift Hunter. It's way better than greater manyshot.

Travel Devotion is a swift action to activate, lasts 1 minute (e.g., usually the whole combat), and when it's up you're able to move your speed as a swift action. This enables your skirmish-full-attacks and then some. Each time you take Travel Devotion, you can use it another time/day. When you take it, you can swap out turn attempts for additional uses/day at the cost of 2 turns per use. This is a permanent swap.

Also, a cleric can swap his domain power for a domain feat. That's why cleric is so good here - you switch out Travel domain for Travel Devotion, and trade in as many turn attempts as possible to power up the feat. With a 12 cha, that's 4 turns, meaning 2 extra uses. 3/day is good.

heffroncm

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Re: Swifthunter build needs help and advice
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2008, 04:38:50 PM »
Thanks for explaining that in detail pfooti.  I updated the OP.  Seriously considering dumping CON entirely and relying on mobility to stay alive, to reduce MAD.  Need so many stats kind of high, it's hard to get the DEX really high for ranged accuracy.

heffroncm

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Re: Swifthunter build needs help and advice
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2008, 05:47:43 PM »
I would appreciate further critique based on the build in the edited OP.  I'm off to play in a couple hours, and must have any changes finalized by then.  I might be able to talk the DM into one more extension, but his generally firm rule is to give player's the chance to refine their build after the first game session, and then it's firmly locked.  The DM is not playing with multiclass penalties, and is playing with fractional saves, so the one level of Cleric added quite a bit.

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Re: Swifthunter build needs help and advice
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2008, 06:17:56 PM »
*EDIT*
Talked with my DM some more.  We worked out new abilities for my character and redid the class levels slightly.

Race is immutable.  I might be able to change the ability scores, but I don't want to press my luck as the DM basically handed these too me when it's supposed to be 32 point buy (I'm well over 32 points given the Wood Elf racial mods).  Feats, favored enemies, equipment, and class levels are up for change.  The DM allowed me to swap out class skills, enabling me to gain Disable Device and Open Lock on both my Ranger and Scout skill lists.  This is for a kind of "last hurrah" 3.5 game for me, I expect this campaign to make the switch to 4e soon.  I've been all but assured a Periapt of Wisdom before I get spells to cast, and AFAIK Ranger spells don't especially benefit from a high WIS.

Wood Elf Ranger 2 / Scout 5 / Cleric 1

Starting Abilities
STR  8
DEX 20
CON 13
INT 14
WIS 11
CHA 12

01: Scout 1: Point Blank Shot
02: Scout 2:
03: Cleric 1: Air Devotion, Travel Devotion, Extra Turning
04: Scout 3: +1 CON
05: Ranger 1: Track, Favored Enemy: Arcanists +2 (CM Arcane Hunter alt feature)
06: Scout 4: Swifthunter (Bonus Feat), Favored Enemy: Undead +4, Improved Skirmish
07: Scout 5
08: Ranger 2: Rapid Shot (Combat Style), +1 DEX

This starts me off with 5 uses of Travel Devotion per day, though it delays Improved Skirmish.  3 shot Rapid Shots should compensate for the loss of 2d6.  Darkstalker is a definite "in" feat later.

I don't like wood elf, or any elf for some reason. I hate their penalties. But since you have to use it, that's ok.

I'd like to instead suggest this build progression (i assume you don't use multiclassing penalties):

Scout 1 - Point Blank Shot
Cloistered Cleric 1 - Knowledge Devotion, Travel Devotion, celerity domain (Fharlanghn offers both celerity and travel domains).
Ranger 1 - Track, Precise Shot
Scout 2
Scout 3
Scout 4 - Swift Hunter, Improved Skirmish
Ranger all the way.

alternative features:
dungeon specialist
arcane hunter
skilled city dweller - ranger (swap ride with tumble)
get the alternative animal companion from cityscape web enhancement

Hope it helps.
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Smudgy

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Re: Swifthunter build needs help and advice
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2008, 06:22:11 PM »
Boots of Striding and Springing...
Ignore me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that Boots of Striding and Springing don't stack with Fast Movement from the Scout, as they are both enhancement bonuses. So that should free you up like 5,500g to spend. I think there's some ring in DotU that gives you +2 to spot and listen ands lets you re-roll initiative checks for only 6,500g. But Gleemax is failing right now, so I can't double check.

heffroncm

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Re: Swifthunter build needs help and advice
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2008, 06:25:53 PM »
Boots are neccessary for the suggested ring to work.  You have to have magical speed enhancement to bump it up to a 50% miss chance.

Thanks for the suggestions folks, took them into account as well I could given the backstory of the game at hand.  Out the door in 20 minutes.  Quick question: Does Rapid Shot allow me to apply my Precision damage to every arrow?  I thought it did, and that was part of why it was a Full Round action, but can't find that information now, as Gleemax is Fail to the Max.

Ubernoob

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Re: Swifthunter build needs help and advice
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2008, 08:03:16 PM »
Nemesis Swift Hunter, or I Want to be a Paladin

1 Scout  1 Point Blank Shot
2 Scout  2
3 Scout  3 Favored of The Companions
4 Ranger 1 Track
5 Ranger 2 Rapidshot
6 Ranger 3 Endurance, Swift Hunter
7 Ranger 4 Precise Shot
8 Ranger 5
9 Ranger 6 Manyshot, Greater Manyshot
10 Scout 4 Improved Skirmish
11 Stalker of Kharash 1
12 Stalker of Kharash 2 Nemesis(Evil)
13 Dragon Devotee 1
14 Dragon Devotee 2
15 Dragon Devotee 3 Darkstalker
16 Dragon Devotee 4
17 Unseen Seer 1
18 Unseen Seer 2 Open Feat
19 Unseen Seer 3
20 Unseen Seer 4

Scout 4/ Ranger 6/ Stalker of Kharash 2/ Dragon Devotee 4/ Unseen Seer 4.
17 BAB.
11/14/8 Saves.
ACFs: Urban Companion (Buy a dark blue ioun stone instead if possible), Arcane Hunter, Champion of the Wild.
5th level sorcerer casting.

This hunter gets 7d6/+2 skirmish (9d6/+4 with swift hunter) greater manyshot, 5th level sorcerer spellcasting, and the ability to apply skirmish to any evil creature or creature that can cast arcane spells.  You automatically detect evil creatures within 60' so are assured to get around skirmish immunity (regardless of it's source) in any combat that still has evil creatures nearby.  Making arrow mind one and detect magic spells known gets the prereqs for unseen seer quite nicely.

From my thread.  I dislike travel devotion on skirmishers (feels too easy).
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dman11235

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Re: Swifthunter build needs help and advice
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2008, 09:50:14 PM »
But it's fun ubernoob!  Though sometimes it's not the right thing for the job, and that's why Greater Manyshot exists.

On the boots: see if you can get an insight item to speed instead.  I think there's one somewhere.

And yes, you can with rapid shot.  It doesn't indicate that you can't does it?  And it's not some special attack, it's a full attack, with a bonus attack, much like Haste, or Flurry of Blows.
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heffroncm

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Re: Swifthunter build needs help and advice
« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2008, 02:53:34 AM »
Razzin-frackin DM's pulled a fast one, we played our other campaign and I had to finish 3/4s of a VoP druid from memory with no BoED handy.

In the Swifthunter's campaign, the party is in dire need of some drastic damage output.  Most of the party is lockdown, with one pouncer as the only real damager and one fighter / beguiler that mainly takes up space on the battlefield.  3rd level spells at character level 9 don't cut it.  Travel Devotion and Rapid Shot stay in.  I might take Improved Rapid Shot if I find that I miss consistently, but we'll see.

Besides, I'm playing an Exalted character in one campaign already.  I'd like to avoid it for this one.

Right now I think the build in the OP is pretty well set.  I'd like some advice on how best to move forward on feats.  IIRC, Darkstalker is a must.  I need to get another look at the Swifthunter Handbook, but can't get Failmax to win.  I intend to finish out my levels with Ranger, and will have very little control over which Magic Items I get so can't really plan on anything specific.

Thanks for all your help folks, I feel about as competent as a kitten on linoleum with this Swifthunter stuff.