Author Topic: HERO system, specifically Champions  (Read 5268 times)

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heffroncm

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HERO system, specifically Champions
« on: June 07, 2008, 01:49:15 AM »
I was given the HERO System Fifth Edition Revised book today, a 592 page tome of gaming containing a complete cross-genres d6 system that boasts the ability to run any game, for anybody, with any heroes, and any setting.  This was gifted to me by a friend leaving town, who has heard my desire to provide a non-d20 Bronze Age Superheroes type game for my current group.  They have only experienced D&D 3.5, D&D 4e, and Hackmaster, so it seemed like the easiest way to broaden their horizons.

I was wondering, could someone give me their thoughts on the book?  Wether or not it is an easy to learn system for younger folks who have not dont a lot of gaming?  If it is well balanced?  And how well it can portray the Bronze Age to Iron Age of comics, where the heroes deal with more mature themes and less "Comic Code" heroism?

Thanks for your opinions.

Josh

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Re: HERO system, specifically Champions
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2008, 04:15:29 AM »
HERO/Champions is extremely complicated, it suffers from two major problems: It is a more complicated version of Mutants and masterminds, and it uses full point buy.

Essentially Mutants and Masterminds delivers everything that HERO does.  A strong argument could be made that it handles the simulation of comics better and that it handles the concept of superpowers better as well as better setting power limits.  What is inarguable is how much less complex the game is.  So even if the game was merely as good the total product would be better. 

HERO (like GURPS) is a full point buy toolbox game.  Full point buy means that you are given a base number of points and that is how you construct your character.  This is one of the weaker basic systems, it is prone to becoming drastically unbalanced.  The system tries to balance powers and abilities based on an absolute cost.  This is further complicated by being a toolbox.  In a toolbox game the final form is adjudicated by the GM.  He changes rules and makes adjustments.  The point restrictions of full point buy are the things he needs to manipulate.  So you take a system based on balancing by absolute costing and then you change the costs.  This of course means you have to essentially rework the game yourself, but then have to go through with the indignity of making it match back up with the root system again.
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heffroncm

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Re: HERO system, specifically Champions
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2008, 09:14:35 AM »
Sounds like the HERO system would recquire a lot of work, with the payoff being a game that is merely mediocre.  Dissapointing, but explains why someone was so willing to give away a $49.99 book.  I might make the effort anyway, as my main focus is to get them playing something that isn't d20.  Going to do some more looking first though.

bhu

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Re: HERO system, specifically Champions
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2008, 07:09:39 PM »
It's not too bad to play, but you will focus more on roleplaying than combat (Cause combat will be LONG).  Not really a problem unless your PC's are combat monsters.  I've played it for years and like it despite the many flaws.  It does okay for higher power levels, but your going to run into some wtf situaions if you try to play human power level campaigns.  Also, character generation for someone who hasn't done it before is a bitch.  It's such a bitch that theres a program for it now.  And when your players do get used to it, ou'll have to review a character every time they make it.  Not only for "creatively flawed" math that lets them squeeze in more points, but just for weirdly unbalanced crap (i.e. I have an instakill energy blast I spent all my points on, ut it knocks me unconscious when I use it and I cant do a damn thing else).   Effectively you'll have to take about 4 hours a player to make a PC if they wanna peruse all their options. Or make up templates ahead of time with a few points to spare so they can customize them the first time out.  Beleive it or not by now theyve eliminated some of the massive flaws from previous editions.  I used to be able to squeeze a few thousand points into a 300 point character back in the bad old days  :D

Josh

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Re: HERO system, specifically Champions
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2008, 08:09:41 PM »
Sounds like the HERO system would recquire a lot of work, with the payoff being a game that is merely mediocre.  Dissapointing, but explains why someone was so willing to give away a $49.99 book.  I might make the effort anyway, as my main focus is to get them playing something that isn't d20.  Going to do some more looking first though.

If you have lots of time on your hands you may want to give it a try.  As for 4 hour character generation, I don't know any new people who can do it that fast.  A new person with an experienced person leading them through it maybe. 

As for not playing fighting iirc thats pretty much what the game is; "fighting" and "setting up fighting."  If you are doing anything else you are generally just rolling a few skills or playing not-HERO.
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heffroncm

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Re: HERO system, specifically Champions
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2008, 08:32:53 PM »
Thank you both for your insights.  In the end, I torrented Mutants and Masterminds and gave it a read through.  I've ordered the primary book and I am reading the others to decide what to buy and what to delete.  I think it brings enough of a genre jump and system change with the point-buy generation to give my group a new experience, without needing quite so much effort on my part as Champions.

bhu

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Re: HERO system, specifically Champions
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2008, 05:53:27 AM »
Sounds like the HERO system would recquire a lot of work, with the payoff being a game that is merely mediocre.  Dissapointing, but explains why someone was so willing to give away a $49.99 book.  I might make the effort anyway, as my main focus is to get them playing something that isn't d20.  Going to do some more looking first though.

If you have lots of time on your hands you may want to give it a try.  As for 4 hour character generation, I don't know any new people who can do it that fast.  A new person with an experienced person leading them through it maybe. 

As for not playing fighting iirc thats pretty much what the game is; "fighting" and "setting up fighting."  If you are doing anything else you are generally just rolling a few skills or playing not-HERO.


Well usually a fight took most of an entire session to do.  One fight.   So basically we fought ever other session at least.


I could do a character in less than 20 minutes at my prime.  been a while but wouldnt take long to get back up to speed.

Josh

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Re: HERO system, specifically Champions
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2008, 06:07:31 AM »
Ages ago we used Champions/Hero to play a Shannara hack (Terry Brooks series).  We went through this whole thing of everyone choosing their character and my brother (the gm) and I would help them make their characters.  So we get all the character building done and we start to play and we did not even make it through one session because no one could understand how to play other than me and my brother. 

Every time something came up they were like "what do I do now?" and I would explain.  The problem is that no matter how many times they were told nobody ever figured out how to do anything and then they started getting all pissy about why we were playing in this setting and blah blah blah.

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bhu

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Re: HERO system, specifically Champions
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2008, 09:15:39 PM »
Ages ago we used Champions/Hero to play a Shannara hack (Terry Brooks series).  We went through this whole thing of everyone choosing their character and my brother (the gm) and I would help them make their characters.  So we get all the character building done and we start to play and we did not even make it through one session because no one could understand how to play other than me and my brother. 

Every time something came up they were like "what do I do now?" and I would explain.  The problem is that no matter how many times they were told nobody ever figured out how to do anything and then they started getting all pissy about why we were playing in this setting and blah blah blah.



I get that in a lot of games.  Even DND.  WHich sort of pisses me off sometimes since DND isnt exactly the epitome of complication.  Theres one guy Ive played d20 with since it came out and eversingle fight he says "What do I add to my die roll??"  It makes me wanna scream.  "Jesus fuckwit CHrist you roll a d20+3!!!! Its been that since you made the fucking character!!! The character youve played for 3 fucking weeks now!!!  Do I need to wear a sign on my chest?"  Wa the same for champions.  "How many d6 do I roll for skill checks??"

Ice9

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Re: HERO system, specifically Champions
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2008, 04:06:23 PM »
I've played it, and it's not as bad as this thread makes it seem.  Actually, it can be fun if:
1) Everyone can calculate things / add up dice quickly.
2) The DM and players have an agreement not to break the system, and of what constitutes broken.
3) The DM sets up a few basic power caps (most importantly, a SPD cap).

Even then, battles tend toward the long side, and character creation isn't fast (think high-level D&D character, including picking out items and prepared spells).  But it does have certain advantages.


Advantages:
* You can make exactly the character you want.  Down to each individual power having exactly the effects and usage conditions you imagine. 
* You don't have to make "rounded" characters.  This is can be a problem, especially with new players/DMs, but it also gives you freedom to make a radically different character without being forced to have X combat ability for every Y skill, or X defense for every Y offense.
* The combat system actually results in the kind of stuff you'd expect superheroes to do - throwing people through walls, sending foes flying with a mighty punch, tossing a truck at someone - all works without fudging.


Disadvantages:
* When making a character, you need to know the desired goal first, and then pick out stuff to fit it.  If you try to just dive in the way you can with D&D, it'll be confusing and hard to get good results.
* Character creation is always fairly lengthy, and unless you have a player/DM with some experience, you can end up with a character that just doesn't work.
* The system has loopholes you could drive a truck through, and if you have even the slightest inclination to break it, you can easily get a world-shatteringly powerful character.  The DM pretty much has to set their own standard of balance and enforce it, because the rules don't.
* Combat is slow at best, and if any of the players are slow with math, it goes about as fast as a glacier.


Basically, a great system for creating a specific character idea you have, and a terrible one for running a quick game.
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Caelic

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Re: HERO system, specifically Champions
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2008, 11:12:11 PM »
Hero is, IMO, the ultimate extension of the simulationist system.  It's a hardcore, do-it-yourself game engine for those who want to model a specific reality.  It has a steep learning curve, but when everyone at the table knows the system well (and has the maturity not to try to break it,) it can produce excellent results.  Our current modern day hunters-slash-exorcists campaign is Hero-based.

Overall, I think GURPS works slightly better for near-human power levels, and Hero works better for higher power levels.

Josh

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Re: HERO system, specifically Champions
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2008, 11:25:14 PM »
Hero is, IMO, the ultimate extension of the simulationist system.  It's a hardcore, do-it-yourself game engine for those who want to model a specific reality.  It has a steep learning curve, but when everyone at the table knows the system well (and has the maturity not to try to break it,) it can produce excellent results.  Our current modern day hunters-slash-exorcists campaign is Hero-based.

Overall, I think GURPS works slightly better for near-human power levels, and Hero works better for higher power levels.

The problem with both of these systems is that they are closed systems, with no emergent behavior. 

In other words the GM is setting up a situation where they decide how likely it is you will win, and then you roll to see if you win. 

Other simpler games are much better simulation engines Shock!(soft Sci-Fi), Prime time Adventures(Television Shows), Spirit of the Century (Cinematic pulp adventures). 
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Ice9

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Re: HERO system, specifically Champions
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2008, 08:06:41 AM »
Quote
The problem with both of these systems is that they are closed systems, with no emergent behavior.
Strange that you mention this, because if anything, I find simulation-based systems tend to give you more emergent behavior. 

For instance, in say, Spirit of the Century, if you try to use Mad Science to build something, it's completely ad-hoc what the actual effects are.  Pretty much, the DM decides how likely it is you will win, and then you roll to see if you win.  Now sure, you can narrate yourself some emergent behavior, decide that X sequence of events happens because of previous conditions, but it's all fiat - which you can do in any system.  Not that this makes rules-light games a bad thing, incidentally.

In a rules-heavier, simulation-based game, you can discover some interactions of the rules - for instance, that minor levitation combined with the recoil or impact of a blast allows you pseudo-flight, and then you can make a vehicle/strategy/trap based off that.  Now admittedly, HERO is not the best system for this, because if anything, it's too comprehensive - there's usually not much point finding an emergent way to do something when a power for exactly that purpose exists.


An example of something I consider emergent behavior:  Propelling a space ship by means of a large array of Mage Hand traps, with the emergent property that the ship could only operate outside a gravity well, requiring shuttles or similar to make a landing.  Another one - combining a floating disc with a plank and some armor plating to make essentially a hover-tank, while taking into account that you can't just ride on it directly.

Player motivations being what they are, I find the best enviroment for discovering emergent behaviors is a system where players want things they can directly have, but aren't disallowed from indirectly aquiring, and with enough complexities and loopholes that the available options aren't transparent at a glance.  Not a great environment for balance, but hey, that's the trade-off.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2008, 08:13:11 AM by Ice9 »
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Caelic

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Re: HERO system, specifically Champions
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2008, 09:56:52 AM »

Other simpler games are much better simulation engines Shock!(soft Sci-Fi), Prime time Adventures(Television Shows), Spirit of the Century (Cinematic pulp adventures). 


Better for one specific genre, yes; a game specifically tailored to the tropes of one genre is, I think, always going to work better for that genre.  I view Hero as more of a metagame--a set of tools I can use to build a game.

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Re: HERO system, specifically Champions
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2008, 04:31:27 AM »
Quote
Strange that you mention this, because if anything, I find simulation-based systems tend to give you more emergent behavior.
Hero uses a effect based system.  That will eliminate emergent behavior.

Quote
For instance, in say, Spirit of the Century, if you try to use Mad Science to build something, it's completely ad-hoc what the actual effects are.  Pretty much, the DM decides how likely it is you will win, and then you roll to see if you win.  Now sure, you can narrate yourself some emergent behavior, decide that X sequence of events happens because of previous conditions, but it's all fiat - which you can do in any system.  Not that this makes rules-light games a bad thing, incidentally.

Only when you discuss the topic in theory.  In most cases the effect is merely potential and the costs and bonuses are fixed in SotC.  If you make up the fact that pterodactyls are attracted to shiny mirrors it merely creates the opportunity to get the bad-guy by polishing his armor.  Basic emergence.  In all cases the situation is governed by the rules, no fiat involved (you may be mixing narration with fiat)

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Ice9

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Re: HERO system, specifically Champions
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2008, 05:23:16 AM »
Quote
In most cases the effect is merely potential and the costs and bonuses are fixed in SotC.
Which is somewhat the same problem Hero has - if setting up a situation merely enables you to count it as an invokable aspect, then it has no pragmatic difference from simply invoking an already existing character aspect, of which at least one is likely to relate to any given situation - same cost, same benefit.  Not that you can't have emergent behavior, but it's only there to the extent that the GM and players put it there.

As mentioned, the comprehensiveness of Hero's existing powers does tend to leave little incentive for emergent solutions in general, although there are cases that existing powers don't cover, or don't exclusively cover - so there is some potential there.  It also depends how much importance the GM places on the special effects of powers.


I guess what would be ideal for emergent behavior is a "cause based" system - for instance, where a Fireball power has effects and costs based on the fact that it's a certain amount of fire, not on it's points or narrative importance.
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bhu

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Re: HERO system, specifically Champions
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2008, 07:21:21 AM »
On the other hand in HERO i can play a 400 pound mutant hamster named Ralph with super scamper powers.

heffroncm

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Re: HERO system, specifically Champions
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2008, 05:17:41 PM »
The biggest problem I had with HERO, after reading some 300 pages of the monstrous Complete 5th Edition book, was that nearly every. single. page. had text telling the GM to use his own judgement on wether to allow an effect or not and how much that effect should cost.  As Josh said, it's a toolbox game.  I don't have the time or inclination to spend weeks to years tweaking and balancing a system.  I buy games so I DON'T have to make my own games.  HERO is a complicated, expensive set of guidelines on how to make my own game.

Caelic

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Re: HERO system, specifically Champions
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2008, 10:42:17 PM »
The biggest problem I had with HERO, after reading some 300 pages of the monstrous Complete 5th Edition book, was that nearly every. single. page. had text telling the GM to use his own judgement on wether to allow an effect or not and how much that effect should cost.  As Josh said, it's a toolbox game.  I don't have the time or inclination to spend weeks to years tweaking and balancing a system.  I buy games so I DON'T have to make my own games.  HERO is a complicated, expensive set of guidelines on how to make my own game.



That's exactly what it is, yes.  Hero is the UNIX of gaming--a framework which you can use to build damned near anything, if you're willing to invest the time and effort.  There's a substantial learning curve, but once you've learned it, you can use it to do some remarkable things.  I like my games at two extremes; Hero represents one of those extremes.

heffroncm

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Re: HERO system, specifically Champions
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2008, 10:56:17 PM »
That's exactly what it is, yes.  Hero is the UNIX of gaming--a framework which you can use to build damned near anything, if you're willing to invest the time and effort.  There's a substantial learning curve, but once you've learned it, you can use it to do some remarkable things.  I like my games at two extremes; Hero represents one of those extremes.

I concur.  I love that side of gaming.  I used to use UNIX too.

Nowadays, I have a one year old daughter, work full time, and am working on an accelerated Master's in Computer Forensics and Medical Informatics.  I have 16 hours a week that I dedicate to "me" time.  90 minutes of that is transportation, 90 minutes of that I devote to game prep, and the other 13 hours are playtime.  I don't want to disturb that balance.