Author Topic: Handeling the WLD the CO way  (Read 10220 times)

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tristanayres

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Handeling the WLD the CO way
« on: October 07, 2009, 11:22:29 PM »
Im just throwing this out there with the recent talk on the topic of the WLD.I know the iconic 4 man party (fighter,wiz,healbot,skill monkey) however I know that there is a better way to manage this dungeon. What would a member of the CO board want in his/her party of 4 to go trekking through the WLD. Assume all books that are official are legal, 32 pt buy, all WLD supplemantal rules in play (BC spellls limit and what not) sans the XP penalty on multiclass. I thought that this might prove to be an interesting thread in that most of the time you see singular builds not so much emphasis on group dynamic.

2 side notes

a- I would like to avoid this being an argument over whether or not the changes to spells and whatnot in the WLD are logical or even thought about at all. If you like the change or not with a simple DM fiat they can be fixed your opinion is yours on the matter and like anywhere you always think your is the best (sometimes despite unanimous decisions by your peers

b-To take a note from Caelics revised optimising guide lines lets try to keep the PC's in the realm of optimization and out of the realm of Chuck Norris type power

Enjoy

Thanks for your time

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Handeling the WLD the CO way
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2009, 11:31:42 PM »
Not all of us have read through it. Mind giving us some more details? For example, how exactly is BFC limited?

I'd guess a party that all has Darkvision + Rings of Darkhidden would be a pretty damn decent start. It might be a trick getting those rings, though.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Negative Zero

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Re: Handeling the WLD the CO way
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2009, 11:33:55 PM »
Could you list the house rules in play, for those of us who don't know them?

My first instinct would be Dragonborn Mongrelfolk Crusader for the trapfinding, since the DCs are so high. I'd probably also want a Dragonborn Mongrelfolk Dragonfire Adept. At this point, I remember that someone on these boards ran in a game of WLD with a party that was almost entirely (if not entirely) Dragonborn. Who was that, and what was their party? Anybody know?

Adam500

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Re: Handeling the WLD the CO way
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2009, 11:44:35 PM »
Having actually ran this once, I gotta say Warlocks walk over this adventure at least early on. Mind you, I didn't progress beyond Area A.

InnaBinder

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Re: Handeling the WLD the CO way
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2009, 11:48:36 PM »
Dragonborn Warlocks do well, as would a Warforged Dragon Shaman.

Quick rundown of the houserules:
Battlefield Controls such as Web and Entangle are banned by the writeup.  Teleportation and plane shifting effects of any kind are non-functional; no Dim Door, or quick hopping out to Ye Olde Magick Shoppe or Sigil.  Nothing can be summoned in, or, alternately, anything summoned in cannot get out and attacks the summoner ASAP.  Extradimensional spaces do not work in WLD, from Haversacks to Rope Tricks.
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tristanayres

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Re: Handeling the WLD the CO way
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2009, 12:03:57 AM »
Thanks for answereing the house rule ? for me as I suppose that I thought everyone would've gotten drawn into the trainwreck that the last WLD thread devolved into. I thought that a warlock or anything for that matter that has a sort of "built in" recharge mechanic. My purpose was to find out what kind of party roles would be required to get through this in tact and how to best optimis those options.

Also for any one who may not be familiar in addition to the afore mentioned restrictions placed on us by the designers the basic idea of the dungeon is as follows.

It is a gigantic pre-civilization built dungeon where Celestials imprisonecc things like liches and demons and things of that nature which also contains at lt least one o every type of creature in the MM.There is also a chart to go by that has a random encounter possibility every HOUR (thougvh in practice you do get periods of uninteruppted rest ) also randomly dispersed are "safe" rooms where technically you can stay indefinatly. Also eating and drinking doesnt seem to be required due to the celestial influence on the area in the fluff text, so theres that i guess as a boon. hope that helps

Thanks for your time 

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Handeling the WLD the CO way
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2009, 12:07:04 AM »
No BFC sounds pretty arbitrary, and poorly defined (and dumb... "Mages are supposed to blast stuff" sounds like the reasoning...). Does that include Glitterdust? Sleet Storm? Evard's Black Tentacles? Spiked-chain fighters? Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion?

If you want to "summon", play a psion with Astral Construct. Or use those spells that "summon" frozen construct versions of the SM list stuff (Conjure Ice Beast). Both of those actually create mindless constructs, instead of summoning real monsters.

Since it starts at level 1, a spiked chain fighter for BFC that the party mage buffs with Enlarge Person should work well for quite some while.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2009, 12:20:55 AM by PhaedrusXY »
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Handeling the WLD the CO way
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2009, 12:16:10 AM »
There's a spellbook with web early on, so... yeah.

Best way to deal with it?

Everyone takes levels of ghost.  Then cast earthquake repeatedly.
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InnaBinder

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Re: Handeling the WLD the CO way
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2009, 12:18:34 AM »
No BFC sounds pretty arbitrary, and poorly defined (and dumb... "Mages are supposed to blast stuff" sounds like the reasoning...). Does that include Glitterdust? Sleet Storm? Evard's Black Tentacles? Spiked-chain fighters? Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion?
No BFC spells.  Also, no taking 10/20, per the authors' directives.
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Handeling the WLD the CO way
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2009, 12:23:39 AM »
No BFC sounds pretty arbitrary, and poorly defined (and dumb... "Mages are supposed to blast stuff" sounds like the reasoning...). Does that include Glitterdust? Sleet Storm? Evard's Black Tentacles? Spiked-chain fighters? Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion?
No BFC spells.  Also, no taking 10/20, per the authors' directives.
Yeah, but WTF does that include? Glitterdust? Confusion? Charm Monster? Anything that isn't blastin', healin' or buffin'?

Confusion and Glitterdust are awesome BFC spells, but they certainly don't function anything like Web. Are they banned or not? Is this even defined at all?

Sorry... the whole thing just sounds more annoying than anything else.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Anklebite

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Re: Handeling the WLD the CO way
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2009, 12:26:17 AM »
No BFC sounds pretty arbitrary, and poorly defined (and dumb... "Mages are supposed to blast stuff" sounds like the reasoning...). Does that include Glitterdust? Sleet Storm? Evard's Black Tentacles? Spiked-chain fighters? Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion?
No BFC spells.  Also, no taking 10/20, per the authors' directives.

can we go by the assumtion that BC spells found on mob spellbooks are usable, and that the skill mastery class feature will still allow you to always take 10?
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Emy

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Re: Handeling the WLD the CO way
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2009, 12:34:20 AM »
If you want to "summon", play a psion with Astral Construct. Or use those spells that "summon" frozen construct versions of the SM list stuff (Conjure Ice Beast). Both of those actually create mindless constructs, instead of summoning real monsters.

Or Shadow Conjuration/ScM summons. I know it works in Ravenloft, at least, because it doesn't actually summon real creatures. It just mimicks the effect of summoning a creature temporarily with shadowstuff.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Handeling the WLD the CO way
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2009, 12:36:38 AM »
Unseen Servant should be allowable, right? Since it is Conjuration (Creation) and not summoning? You can use one of those to set off lots of traps, and for "bait". You build a "scarecrow" for it to drag around. It can drag 100 lbs. The 1 hr/lvl duration means you won't need many of them, either.

A cloistered cleric gets that spell. I think some version of Hubert would do ok in there.

A binder should be pretty useful, too. They can create a bird that they can see through at level 1. Or would that be banned...? I guess it would be summoning... Ah well, psicrystals do pretty good at that. So do bat familiars, but it is risky.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

JaronK

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Re: Handeling the WLD the CO way
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2009, 01:15:42 AM »
There's some weird stuff in this dungeon, so here's my recommendations.

1:  Dragonborn Water Orc Crusader.  This is your trap disarmer (seriously).  The traps are too leathal and too hard to disarm to even consider a Rogue doing it, but the Orc actually might survive and then heal up after taking the hits.  Also, the endless healing is critical in a dungeon with so many random encounters, and while WLD house rules mean you can't just smash through the dungeon with Overwhelming Mountain Hammer, the rest of your abilities will still be quite handy.  Watch out for that low will save though... under no circumstances should you touch anything but enemies and traps (smash the traps with Mountain Hammer!).  If you want, this could be a Crusader/Cleric/RKV, but that'll be dangerous in the lower levels.  A dip into Warblade for Iron Heart Surge is also advised... curses in this dungeon are insane, and the ability to say "nah, I don't want that curse" is amazing.

2:  Venerable Dragonwrought Dragonborn Kobold DMM Persistant Cleric.  Overkill?  Not in a dungeon this deadly.  DMM Persist means persisting Detect Secret Doors at low levels and Lesser Mass Vigor in the mid levels, with mass party buffs later on (Vigorous Circle, Righteous Wraith of the Faithful, Recitation, etc).  Very very handy.  Also, somebody needs a good will save in the party, and needs to be able to shrug off curses with spells.  Also, this guy can do the talking around good people, which is important... make sure his alignment is good (which should be the case for all of the party except maybe the arcanist).  There are also a few nice spells that boost skills by a great deal... take them and use them a lot.  

3:  Scouting Factotum.  Despite what you might think, this guy does not handle traps at low levels (that's the Crusader's Job).  But you still need a wide variety of skills and spells in this dungeon, and his access to all of them is going to be very important.  Make sure he can dish out damage, and throw in the Mindbender level for Mindsight as well as Darkstalker.  A dip into Swordsage might be wise for certain utility manuevers (Cloak of Deception, Shadow Jaunt, the throw manuevers, and the save boosters).

4:  Binder/Wizard/Anima Mage/Tainted Sorcerer.  You need arcane spells that pack a punch, and this guy would have it.  Tainted Sorcerer and Anima Mage ensure that you can metamagic (read: persist) all the spells you need.  Binder provides more low level repeatable effects.  Focus on spells that provide long term benefits like minion creating spells (but disguise any undead as being alive... you don't want to piss off certain good forces in there).  Also, it would be very useful to make sure you have the ability to create expendable troops, such as the Binder ability which does this.  Someone to die to traps is awfully handy... some Incarnum feats can help with that.  As an aside, spells are harder to find in the dungeon, so Collegate Wizard is worth its weight in gold.  You might even want Shadowcraft Mage, and a Geometer dip for the cheaper spell scribing might be a solid plan.

JaronK

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Handeling the WLD the CO way
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2009, 01:52:56 AM »
Is there some reason an Unseen Servant dragging around a 100 pound scarecrow can't set off most traps? Do most of them magically sense creatures? The Unseen Servant (dragging this thing) will set off pit traps, pressure sensors, and can open doors for you. It will take no damage except from area effects, also. So you can reuse it. And it is a 1st level spell, which is affordable even at level 1.

A psicrystal starts out at 1st level with at least +14 to hide, +6 Spot and Listen, 30 foot movement with a climb speed, and telekinetic sight that ignores darkness and concealment. It has a hardness of 8, Improved Evasion, and it can telepathically relay what it sees back to the party. I doubt a Factotum can scout better than it, at least in the early levels.

I'd suggest a dragonborn warforged psion (shaper), a cloistered cleric with the Trickery and Illusion domains heading into Shadowcraft Mage, a crusader, and the 4th spot could be about anything. Something with unlimited blasting/magic might be a good idea, like a DFA or Warlock. Or a mage with a reserve feat.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2009, 01:54:30 AM by PhaedrusXY »
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Akalsaris

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Re: Handeling the WLD the CO way
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2009, 02:01:34 AM »
JaronK, are you sure the traps weren't just your DM's evil creations?  I remember the intro stating that the WLD doesn't include traps in the rooms, and that as DM you know best when and where to place them for your group.  I didn't read too much further in though, as there were better-designed modules for me to use instead.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Handeling the WLD the CO way
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2009, 02:03:19 AM »
Eh, if you're going balls-to-the-wall with number two, pick up a couple of levels of "singer of concordance".  There's a drop to your BaB, but you can pick up a nice bonus domain and get a good reflex save (along with a nice level of protection from compulsions).  Plus, aspect of refuge is actually decent in a dungeon like this.  
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Negative Zero

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Re: Handeling the WLD the CO way
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2009, 02:28:48 AM »
JaronK, are you sure the traps weren't just your DM's evil creations?  I remember the intro stating that the WLD doesn't include traps in the rooms, and that as DM you know best when and where to place them for your group.  I didn't read too much further in though, as there were better-designed modules for me to use instead.

I'm in a WLD game now. Before they died, we had two Factotums (18 int and 20 int) that would search basically every doorway. They missed traps very often. One of them died because they got a search check of 30 on a DC 31 trap. They were level 2.

JaronK

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Re: Handeling the WLD the CO way
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2009, 09:42:28 AM »
JaronK, are you sure the traps weren't just your DM's evil creations?  I remember the intro stating that the WLD doesn't include traps in the rooms, and that as DM you know best when and where to place them for your group.  I didn't read too much further in though, as there were better-designed modules for me to use instead.

Absolutely sure.  I saw the book when the DM asked me stuff.  Traps included a DC28 to find fireball trap with a DC28 to disarm that does 6d6 damage (reflex save for half, DC quite high)... at level 2.  Yowch.  That's straight out of the book, and took out our Beguiler trap monkey.  Other traps included "if anyone touches the [big item in the center of the room] that person must make a will save.  If they fail, they're cursed with confusion during all combats for 30-Wisdom days, and don't know it till the next combat.  If they succeed, they still get the curse but know that they're cursed."  That one wasn't even detectable with any roll.

Scarecrows won't help, as they often say they're just arbitrarily going off when a living thing gets near it.  The traps tend to be quite arbitrary in fact... though one of our plans actually involved a Commoner 1/Survivor X as a trap detector using Infested with Chickens to trigger traps.  Possibly also tying the chickens to undead minions.  The overall plan of "make someone expendable go in front" is certainly a good one, it's just harder to implement than you might think.  Heck, neither of those would have spotted to confusion trap, as we'd never know the trap had been there until the next combat.

JaronK

tristanayres

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Re: Handeling the WLD the CO way
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2009, 11:01:26 AM »
Wow go to sleep with 2 posts wake up with 20 guess thats what i get for needing sleep. Phaedrus I do agree that some of the limitations the authors imposed are a bit shall we say dim-witted but this is the system in which we all pplay i suppose. I had considered using some sort of a scarecrow to set off the traps but my previous dm said only "living" creatures could set off the traps. Thankfully we had encountered a Troll the party Wiz/Incantrix managed to petrify that the party skill monkey (some manner of  MotUH i beleive) used telekenises to move in front of us like a 6ft pamn peice. It worked well until the first lava filled pit trap anyway.

Thanks for your time