Author Topic: Tier 1 of tier 1  (Read 5808 times)

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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Tier 1 of tier 1
« Reply #20 on: October 07, 2009, 01:10:19 PM »
UP/Day. 11 UPs, period. The most balanced, but also the least playable. Still a game breaker with StP.
That's the same number of unique powers known that a Wilder gets... but the Wilder can't pick his on the fly before he manifests them... and he's behind a level on gaining powers, and has no bonus feats.  :lol

Even without StP, this is very playable. Especially if you include things to let you pick up more powers temporarily as needed (a cohort with Feat Leech and Expanded Knowledge. You use him as a "source of known powers" and manifest Feat Leech, and steal his Expanded Knowledge feat to learn what you need. Or a reuseable Psychic Tattoo of Psychic Reformation, etc.)

If you have plenty of downtime, I think the Psionic Artificer can easily compete if not outperform even a StP Erudite, though...
« Last Edit: October 07, 2009, 01:14:29 PM by PhaedrusXY »
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

KellKheraptis

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Re: Tier 1 of tier 1
« Reply #21 on: October 07, 2009, 01:21:33 PM »
While I'm not trying to turn this into a rules debate, the exact text reads :

[spoiler]
Quote from: Complete Psionic
"Unique Powers per Day:
An erudite manifests powers, paying for each manifestation with an expenditure of power points.  Unlike a psion, an erudite is limited to manifesting a certain number of unique psionic powers of each level per day from the repertoire of powers he knows, according to his class level.  Thus, a 1st level erudite can manifest one unique power per day; however, the total number of powers he can manifest per day is limited only bt his daily power points (that ism the erudite could manifest the unique power as many times per day as he has power points to pay for it).  An erudite simply knows his powerss; they are part of his repertoire.  He does not need to prepare them, although he must get a good night's sleep to regain all spent power points the next day.
[/spoiler]

That tells me it's #2 on Sinfire Titan's list, RAW.  And as text trumps table (and indeed elaborates on it without contradicting it, even), seems pretty clear to me.  RAI however was probably otherwise, unless they'd already drawn up StP with that in mind.  SOMEONE at WotC had to see how bad ass the ultimate spellcaster would be...
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awaken DM golem

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Re: Tier 1 of tier 1
« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2009, 06:26:07 PM »
The thing about Psi-Arty is Dorje + Linked power metapsi.
You make a Dorje of level 1 something, and then use (whatever) the infusion thingy Artificers have, that puts Meta"magic" onto items.
You are using Linked Power to put ANY psi-power on it.
You are using a 1st level power as the base item.
2nd level powers cost 1/2 price
3rd level powers cost 1/3 price
etc ...
minus the originating cost, which is dirt cheap.
So it's : early access + biggest list + cheapest cost // can you afford the 1 round delay + the crafting time


DocRoc

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Re: Tier 1 of tier 1
« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2009, 07:21:44 PM »
I'd need to know just precisely how your GM is going to run the StP Erudite.  But there's a reason it shares an acronym with Swords to Plowshares.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Tier 1 of tier 1
« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2009, 07:25:27 PM »
While I'm not trying to turn this into a rules debate, the exact text reads :

[spoiler]
Quote from: Complete Psionic
"Unique Powers per Day:
An erudite manifests powers, paying for each manifestation with an expenditure of power points.  Unlike a psion, an erudite is limited to manifesting a certain number of unique psionic powers of each level per day from the repertoire of powers he knows, according to his class level.  Thus, a 1st level erudite can manifest one unique power per day; however, the total number of powers he can manifest per day is limited only bt his daily power points (that ism the erudite could manifest the unique power as many times per day as he has power points to pay for it).  An erudite simply knows his powerss; they are part of his repertoire.  He does not need to prepare them, although he must get a good night's sleep to regain all spent power points the next day.
[/spoiler]

That tells me it's #2 on Sinfire Titan's list, RAW.  And as text trumps table (and indeed elaborates on it without contradicting it, even), seems pretty clear to me.  RAI however was probably otherwise, unless they'd already drawn up StP with that in mind.  SOMEONE at WotC had to see how bad ass the ultimate spellcaster would be...
The RAW certainly reads like you say. A DM would have to be absolutely insane to allow it like that, though. It would have more "unique" powers known than a freakin' psion, for Christ's sake, and pick them as needed, and change them daily at no cost.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

awaken DM golem

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Re: Tier 1 of tier 1
« Reply #25 on: October 18, 2009, 05:19:33 PM »
Large Prime - responding to yer PM this way ,,,

Let's say you are a level 6 Psi-Arty,
and you have Linked Power metapsi,
and you have a Level 1 psi-item of X,
and you wanna use the level (psi-) Arty ability.
What happens ??
The "spell" level extra cost for using Metamagic X,
costs 1 for 1, level for level
via the normal Artificer cost.
The "spell" level for a Linked Power is the total ML.
Divide by 2, to make the slots line up.
{ ... minor grumbles about not having the book, for the exact wording here ... }
The cost incurred by the Item,
is only equal to the extra ML cost,
of whatever "spell" you use the Linked Power with.

Obviously I'm not very eloquent about how this works.
But a 2nd level Power ("spell")
normally costs 2*3*X, on top of the 1st level power it's Linked to
normally
The Psi-Arty makes this cost: 1 *3*X

It's a minor biff in the Psionic-XX programming.
And makes higher level Powers very cheap.

The small pile of feats that a normal Arty uses to discount Spells,
is accomplished by just the One feat for Psi-Artys,
but works only with Dorjes, instead.

LargePrime

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Re: Tier 1 of tier 1
« Reply #26 on: October 18, 2009, 08:02:51 PM »
Thanks for the reply.  I kept looking for your PM...

I still do not understand this.
I am assuming we are using "Metapsionic Power Trigger" on some Dojer and using the Metapsionic feat "Linked power"?  Right?

Now what is linked power linking to?  Another Dorje?

I am not even sure how Linked power works for a PsiArt.  The Art has no powers known to link to? 

So I do not have a clue what is happening here.  Please Help...

awaken DM golem

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Re: Tier 1 of tier 1
« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2009, 07:44:49 PM »
I'm not the most techno-literate, so PM's are not my specialty.

Without the book sitting right in front of me, I say Yes.
Dorje = Wand , in the conversion.
1 spell level Metamagic = 2 pp Metapsionic , in the conversion
Linked Power is the strange corner case; caused by the psi-X conversion.
Psi-Arty has access to all Psi- powers, and 2 levels earlier than any of the regular psi- classes.
Yes, it's not "fair".
Otherwise, psi-arty doesn't have access to all the goodies that a regular Arty gets.
Having the discount up front, is nice.
Having any power is better, but still delayed 1 round.

LargePrime

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Re: Tier 1 of tier 1
« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2009, 09:11:08 PM »
I am very sorry but I can not understand you.  It is like some version of English that is not parseable.  Do you mind if I ask follow up questions where my parser fails?
1 spell level Metamagic = 2 pp Metapsionic , in the conversion
I understand this to establish a ration of conversion from the standard arty to the PArty. lol
Linked Power is the strange corner case; caused by the psi-X conversion.
Saw that coming.
Psi-Arty has access to all Psi- powers, and 2 levels earlier than any of the regular psi- classes.
Yes, it's not "fair".
To be clear, The PArty has no access to any powers.  But CAN CREATE psionic items with any power.
Otherwise, psi-arty doesn't have access to all the goodies that a regular Arty gets.
Having the discount up front, is nice.
Having any power is better, but still delayed 1 round.
ok, but where is the linked power coming from?
If we convert from Psionics back to Magic.  And lets recreate Linked Power as a MM feat.  "Linked Spell" would allow you to have a second spell take effect on the second round and would raise the first spells slot by the spell level of the second spell.
Now how would an Arty use this?
Mostly they can't, as they have no second spell.  Cause they have no spells.

Thus it would be reasonable to say Linked Power can not be subject to the PArtys Metapsionic Power Trigger, cause there is no valid target for the second power.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2009, 08:51:16 AM by LargePrime »

Surreal

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Re: Tier 1 of tier 1
« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2009, 03:48:20 AM »
Truth be told, if you're going for pure volume of action abuse, I think the winner is an Ardent Swiftblade, since psionics does that sorta thing better usually, and getting an extra standard or move on top is nice.  Swiftblade/Factotem even more so.
Is there an official psionic swiftblade that I'm not aware? And what does it use in place of haste?
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awaken DM golem

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Re: Tier 1 of tier 1
« Reply #30 on: October 24, 2009, 04:17:35 PM »
LargePrime - I'm not an Atificer guy. I don't have Eberron and I learned most I what little I know about them, here.
I had access the Magic of Eberron during 2007 only, so I'm going from memory. So I should punt ...

Blastificers use Twin Spell metamagic and Repeat Spell metamagic.
Twin Power metapsionic works the same way as Twin Spell.
Linked Power metapsionic has multiple uses, and one of them functions the same as Repeat Spell.
Now, I'm not the guy the explain how a Blastificer works, but Psi-Artificer can do exactly what a Blastificer can do.
If you are trying to overturn the Blastificer, I'm not the guy to have the debate with,
because I'm not the guy who figured them out, or can give you a really detailed write up on how they go.

So long as Blastificer works, and the psi- version works too, then Linked Power is IN, and can be used the other ways it works.



KellKheraptis

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Re: Tier 1 of tier 1
« Reply #31 on: October 26, 2009, 11:54:48 AM »
Truth be told, if you're going for pure volume of action abuse, I think the winner is an Ardent Swiftblade, since psionics does that sorta thing better usually, and getting an extra standard or move on top is nice.  Swiftblade/Factotem even more so.
Is there an official psionic swiftblade that I'm not aware? And what does it use in place of haste?

I don't know if there is one, but with transparency there's gotta be some way to translate it.  If nothing else, StP gives us Haste, though I'm sure there's more efficient means.  As stated before in the old ass psi-gish handbooks, nearly any class can be converted to psionics with minimal effort.  But to answer the question briefly, it would fall under the purview of homebrew.
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awaken DM golem

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Re: Tier 1 of tier 1
« Reply #32 on: October 27, 2009, 07:47:14 PM »
Twin Synchronicity
Twin + Linked Hustle
Schism + Practiced Manifester + more Schisms
Temporal Acceleration + Daze reducers
LInked + Swifts/Quicken
The turn jacking power even with the CPsi nerf
Psi Contingency

Ardent and Dominant Ideal and Substitute Powers should/could make a Time mantle
Erudite with the Mantled option can sort-of do this.