Author Topic: [3.5] Paradigm Determination  (Read 2766 times)

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Bauglir

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[3.5] Paradigm Determination
« on: September 27, 2009, 10:54:25 PM »
I'm wondering a few things about how D&D ought to be set up. I've got pretty firm opinions in some areas, but in others, I'm in a bit of a grey area. To that end, I thought I'd start a thread to find out what people think about certain issues, and where people can bring up similar topics of their own. Couple of things to keep in mind, though:

1. This thread is design philosophy only. At best, specific rules should only be brought in as examples of particular philosophy elements. You might, for instance, refer to Psionics as more balanced than Vancian casting, but only in the context of making a case for point-based systems for abilities in preference to slot-based.

2. This isn't a poll. It's about making rational arguments for one side or the other, rather than showing that one side has the largest fanbase.

3. Again, this is about making rational arguments for one side or the other, so I, at least, am going to ignore any poster who flames, uses the phrases "As I've already demonstrated" or "Stupid people don't deserve my respect" or any equivalents, or otherwise fails to actually put forth an argument or buries a logically sound argument beneath vitriol.

First two things I'm wondering about.

1) Base attack bonus advancement, as it stands, is a part of every class, no matter how inept at combat said class is supposed to be. The relevant result of this is that, by level 12, an Elf Wizard numbers amongst the best swordsmen in an area. Meanwhile, the Fighter is not amongst the best spellcasters in the realm. So, my question is this: should everyone become a better combatant, tougher, and overall harder to kill as they gain levels, or should an attempt be made to severely hamper non-combatant classes in these areas and balance things out elsewhere? Similarly, skill points are based on level, forcing people to become adventurers in order to become superior cobblers, or else the DM has to assign ad hoc XP rewards for each pair of shoes produced (raising the issue of why the PCs don't farm XP by making shoes). So, I guess what I'm asking is, should these facets that are currently tied to a character's level be that way? Assume that balance issues can be magically resolved regardless of the outcome.

2) Level itself presents a couple of questions. Should level be completely open-ended, allowing for a nigh-infinite character progression, or should there be a set cap with all challenges in the universe falling within that range (20 for D&D without the ELH)? With either result, how should the rest of the world measure up to a given level character? Should level 5 be just a pretty good duelist, or should it be the man feared the world over for singlehandedly facing an army?
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

GawainBS

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Re: [3.5] Paradigm Determination
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2009, 08:02:32 AM »
About 1)

No, those should be definitly seperated. It's my biggest gripe with the system: the moment you want to have a great doctor, artist, artisan, scientist,... you're forced to make them quite capable at combat as well. (Relatively speaking.)

veekie

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Re: [3.5] Paradigm Determination
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2009, 12:30:33 PM »
Well, I'd have split the xp/CR system into 3, combat, social and skill, myself, representing the challenge in each corner, but 3.5 as is is pretty much all combat, with the other two as afterthoughts.
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RobbyPants

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Re: [3.5] Paradigm Determination
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2009, 12:57:26 PM »
1)

I actually feel most of the notion of BAB could go away and the game would be just fine.  There's always the issue of the Random Number Generator (RNG).  In 3.5, a full BAB class needs that full advancement plus a slew of other bonuses to keep their ability to hit in combat level appropriate.  Monster AC scales too quickly for them to fall behind.  So, even with a wizard getting 1/2 BAB, they fall off the RNG and become totally irrelavent in melee combat (not counting touch attacks).

My point is, with or without BAB, getting a poor BAB progression is meaningless, as far as contributing in melee is concerened.  So, while it's annoying or wierd that a doctor (or whatever) keeps gaining combat skill, it just doensn't matter.  Either you're on the RNG, or you're off of it (too far above or below).


2)

Open ended or not, the amount of power 20th level characters have is staggering.  That, and the epic level rules as presented absolutely suck.  When I look at character level, I have a hard time trying to figure out what, in fantasy, a 20th level PC even represents.  At that point, they're so far above the heroes of Lord of the Rings, the heroes of Greek mythology, and about anything else I can picture, that they might as well be demi-gods.  Really, most truely "epic", badass fantasy heroes go, they all probably cap out at 10th level, give or take.  20th level is more like Krotos from God of War.

So, I guess I don't see the point in open ended level design.  By 20th level, you're already so far off the charts with typical fantasy tropes that it doesn't make any sense to me.
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woodenbandman

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Re: [3.5] Paradigm Determination
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2009, 01:09:36 AM »
The thing about BAB is that it's tied to Power Attack, which makes warriors remotely competent at their jobs.

Maybe BAB should go 0 -> half -> full. Rogues, monks, fighters... martial classes get full, Clerics get half, Wizards get none. At all. Or just drop BAB and don't have Armor Class scale so unfairly. I don't know.

I kind of like the successes = damage resolution mechanic of World of Darkness and the like, but it has a side effect of making the game feel "samey."

GawainBS

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Re: [3.5] Paradigm Determination
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2009, 04:54:11 AM »
Maybe add some more skill points and use them to "buy" BAB? Obviously, it needs more work than this, but it would allow you to invest in combat if you'd like, or not if you don't care.

Brainpiercing

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Re: [3.5] Paradigm Determination
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2009, 01:25:16 PM »
1.1 ) If it's how the game works, then it's obviously how the game world works. Make your game worlds fit the game, not vice versa, and you'll be fine. Whether it SHOULD be that way is a matter of taste. (That being said, most classical fantasy worlds, including those marketed by WotC, actually DON'T fit the game. I'm totally ignorant about Eberon, maybe that is better in that respect.)

In my games, NPCs gain levels just for aging and doing their jobs, and YES, they do become better fighters that way, automatically. It changes the game world - a lot - but it puts PCs into perspective, too. Once you know that the likelyhood of meeting a higher level shoemaker than yourself is pretty small, then you know you can finally feel like a hero. It also gives a neat way of putting all those worldly leaders into perspective. Of course, NPCs don't get WBL. Some get more, most get less.

1.2) If anyone ever undertook the task of converting D&D in its entirety into an XP-buy system, then you would not end up with this problem, that everyone becomes better at everything else just by gaining levels. If you had to buy every single thing, then probably a good many casters would walk around with 0 BAB.
That being said, casters NEED BAB, too. However, you will also find that many casters worth their money end up with considerably less than 10 BAB at level 20, unless they specifically build against that.

2.)Yes, levels are naturally problematic. And having open ended levels is also problematic, except that it makes more sense. Any game world that uses the ELH should probably rework some if not most famous NPCs and even gods. Again, with an XP-buy system this would all be better, because diminishing returns would take care of everything, without posing a weird hard limit such as a Lvl20 limit.

JaronK

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Re: [3.5] Paradigm Determination
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2009, 02:01:20 PM »
As far as 1 is concerned with BAB, it's annoying, and yet it's not quite true because of the way everything scales up.  Yes, a 12th level Wizard has a better base chance to hit than a 5th level Fighter, but then again against 12th level challenges that Wizard is unable to hit anything, yet the 5th level Fighter has far less difficulty hitting anything appropriate.  D&D assumes you're fighting appropriate challenges all the time, and the rules are set up accordingly.  Is it perfect?  No.  But that's the assumption. 

The skill thing is a bit worse though.  But again, you could assume xp created for making shoes... just a small amount that's less than adventuring.  But the idea that killing an orc tells you more about how to make shoes than making shoes is bizarre... it's just an oversimplification built into the system that makes the game run smoother but hurts reality (much like how old people in D&D can see better than young people).

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Re: [3.5] Paradigm Determination
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2009, 07:30:59 PM »
Someone wrote an article about levels and how stats correspond to reality, saying

-A level 1 character is an ordinary.
-A level 3 character is an expert in his field.
-A level 4 character is at the top of his game.  (Michael Phelps, the Olympic swimmer)
-A level 5 character is a paragon of humanity, someone remembered for ages to come.  (Einstein)

This translates poorly to D&D where people say, "I'm only level 5?  Waaa!"  I feel that the 20 level system has its place, though someone else said it better.
-Levels 1 to 5 are gritty medieval fantasy.  Your character is just another person, however skilled.
-Levels 6 to 10 are heroic medieval fantasy.  In short, you're powerful and you're special in a good way.  At the top end of this tier, your antics may be fantastic, and people may dream of being you, but you're still within the realms of most players' understanding.
-Levels 11 to 15 are wuxia/superhero territory.  You're high-powered and you know it.  You're like the Agents of The Matrix, or Neo for that matter.  By the top of this tier, you're effectively a demigod.
-Levels 16+ are epic-like.  Not necessarily 'Epic' by the rules, but you've escaped the trappings of the mortal plane.  You can probably travel between planes with ease and can reshape worlds to your liking.  When you say, "My will be done!" you can ensure it will be, unless someone of similar power interferes with you.

One of my major problems with the current system is that most feats suck.  The average character gets 6 general feats over his 20 level career, and the average level 1 character will get only 2 to 4 of these in his life before his character dies or the campaign ends.  You'd figure these bonuses would be major.  Nuh-uh.

Often the bonuses these feats grant is so minor you won't notice.  When Weapon Focus gives a piddly +1 accuracy with your chosen weapon, that sucks.  When you need 3 or 4 feats to use a feat you already have (Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell), that sucks.  Casters are powerful because they automatically get scaling abilities and have fewer concerns about crappy feats.  Purely non-caster classes suffer even if feats get bigger plusses or extra abilities just because there are only so many ways to make hitting something interesting.
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Pteryx

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Re: [3.5] Paradigm Determination
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2009, 09:13:59 PM »
This is a decent essay on the general subject, at least at the low end: http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/d&d-calibrating.html

Hope that helps.  -- Pteryx

Brainpiercing

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Re: [3.5] Paradigm Determination
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2009, 11:05:38 AM »
I've read that before.

It also makes perfect sense, except none of the game worlds make any sense at all as soon as there is even ONE level 20 character floating around who is not gagged, handcuffed, encased in a block of adamantium and thrown to the bottom of the sea. (Hell, probably level 15 or 16 will do to mess up the world.) There is just no balance of power to create a semi-static world that way. You need at least one of these to balance every other, and then they have to be kept like the nukes of our world: well stowed away and NEVER used, with the constant threat of Mutually Assured Destruction.

However, if everyone levels with age, then maybe you get the balance of power back, at least a little. That's my take.

veekie

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Re: [3.5] Paradigm Determination
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2009, 11:21:44 AM »
However, if everyone levels with age, then maybe you get the balance of power back, at least a little. That's my take.
Experience, over age, I reckon, though  the two come hand in hand. One thing to note is you need appropriate challenges to grind someone up to a suitable level of power. And you need quite a massive number of people to have even a decent number of those with potential to get much further than a few levels. And even fewer of those who seek out challenges that improve them. And yet fewer that survive said challenges. Repeatedly.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Brainpiercing

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Re: [3.5] Paradigm Determination
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2009, 11:32:42 AM »

Experience, over age, I reckon, though  the two come hand in hand. One thing to note is you need appropriate challenges to grind someone up to a suitable level of power.
With normal D&D rules that's true. But I'm explaining my house-rule which takes care of that (up to a limit, usually level 10 or so) without needing any encounters. Basically EVERYONE just gets XP for growing older while doing their job.

veekie

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Re: [3.5] Paradigm Determination
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2009, 11:35:18 AM »
Just living daily life will eventually crank you up to level 4 or so before the xp becomes negligible anyway.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Brainpiercing

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Re: [3.5] Paradigm Determination
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2009, 12:22:39 PM »
Just living daily life will eventually crank you up to level 4 or so before the xp becomes negligible anyway.
Not so in my system. Every human, for instance, gains 1000XP per year upon reaching adulthood (usually at 16). That brings old people up to level 10. Other races may vary.
But that's a house-rule I use to try and make the game worlds more believable.

veekie

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Re: [3.5] Paradigm Determination
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2009, 01:29:45 PM »
Well, level 10, if you don't mind, is pretty superhuman already, we're talking mid-upper range superheroes territory...
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Brainpiercing

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Re: [3.5] Paradigm Determination
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2009, 06:54:36 PM »
Well, level 10, if you don't mind, is pretty superhuman already, we're talking mid-upper range superheroes territory...
Oh, it certainly changes the game world. But that's a desirable effect, IMHO. For me, D&D isn't supposed to represent any kind of realism at all.

veekie

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Re: [3.5] Paradigm Determination
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2009, 09:18:52 PM »
Ah, good then, so long as it's intended.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."