Author Topic: Ardent handbook  (Read 71093 times)

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KellKheraptis

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Re: Ardent handbook
« Reply #80 on: January 23, 2010, 02:53:23 PM »
I was just thinking about that today, it looks like a good choice. You would want 3 levels of ardent, then you could go 4 levels of totemist/incarnate and pick up practiced manifester.

If you want to get cheesy you could use Body fuel + strongheart vest for infinite power points. If you want to get slightly less cheesy, take a level of binder (good flavor) and use naberius instead so your dm is slightly less tempted to throw things at you.

Actually, if you want to be cheesy, be properly cheesy and get immunity to ability damage, then body fuel your whole pp reserve back :D
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Re: Ardent handbook
« Reply #81 on: January 23, 2010, 05:09:28 PM »
erm ... the Body Fuel thingy doesn't work because it's "Ability Burn" which:
" ...  is a special form of ability damage that cannot be magically or psionically healed. "
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#abilityBurn
But the book has more info, iirc restricts it further to just natural healing.
This one pops up from time to time.


Ardent work well with up to 4 MLs lost but recovered by Practiced Manifester.
So Incarnate 2 or Totemist 2, or 4, or with another 2 level dip.
Early entry is possible from the Moi side, but altogether it takes a lot of feats, and won't work quite as well.

Ardent 2 / Totemist 2 / PsyWar 2 / the dual advance class 10 / maybe Anarchic Initiate 4
would keep the 4th level power goodies on schedule, and be quite the melee monster.
Metamorphic Transfer with Metamorph power covers any multitude of build "sins".

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Re: Ardent handbook
« Reply #82 on: January 23, 2010, 06:30:09 PM »
erm ... the Body Fuel thingy doesn't work because it's "Ability Burn" which:
" ...  is a special form of ability damage that cannot be magically or psionically healed. "
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#abilityBurn
But the book has more info, iirc restricts it further to just natural healing.
This one pops up from time to time.


Ardent work well with up to 4 MLs lost but recovered by Practiced Manifester.
So Incarnate 2 or Totemist 2, or 4, or with another 2 level dip.
Early entry is possible from the Moi side, but altogether it takes a lot of feats, and won't work quite as well.

Ardent 2 / Totemist 2 / PsyWar 2 / the dual advance class 10 / maybe Anarchic Initiate 4
would keep the 4th level power goodies on schedule, and be quite the melee monster.
Metamorphic Transfer with Metamorph power covers any multitude of build "sins".

as far as I know Strongheart vest does not magically heal damage it prevents it in the first place. And Naberius healing is neither magical nor psionic, its supernatural.

KellKheraptis

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Re: Ardent handbook
« Reply #83 on: January 23, 2010, 09:15:29 PM »
Polymorphing into an elemental doesn't preclude it either, and they're naturally immune IIRC.  There's plenty of ways that aren't healing to get around it.  I had it up in the "Ask" thread a couple editions of it ago.
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Re: Ardent handbook
« Reply #84 on: January 25, 2010, 03:51:46 PM »
as far as I know Strongheart vest does not magically heal damage it prevents it in the first place. And Naberius healing is neither magical nor psionic, its supernatural.
What the crap? What definition are you using that doesn't include supernatural as being magical?

And if you aren't taking the damage, then you aren't getting the benefit.
Quote
You can recover 2 power points by taking 1 point of ability burn damage
If you don't take the damage, you don't recover the power points.

And even if you don't buy that, this could also be read in a way to preclude abusing shapechanging magic entirely.
Quote
You can take advantage of this feat only while in your own body.

So yeah... I don't think that shit flies at all, unless your DM is a blind fool.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2010, 04:03:19 PM by PhaedrusXY »
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

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Re: Ardent handbook
« Reply #85 on: March 30, 2010, 04:38:56 AM »
Kind of a random thought exercise, but if one were to create an incarnum mantle, what ability and powers would it grant?
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Re: Ardent handbook
« Reply #86 on: March 30, 2010, 07:57:12 PM »
I'll bite.

MGA ... One [incarnum] feat and one essentia point. This feat can not ever gain a capacity above 1 essentia.

Level 3 power - the level 4 psi-power
Level 7 power - psi version of the level 8 incarnum domain spell (you know, that recharge thingy I keep !@#$-ing about)
Level 8 power - mimics a Heart Binding, once selected cannot be changed or improved
Level 9 power - mimics a Soul Binding, once selected blah blah

maybe the lesser levels could mimic various chakra locations, with a pick one no change clause
Totem location stuff should be included, because once off the normal path of Moi, there's no need to make all sorts of variants.
Totem at level 2 slot perhaps?

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Re: Ardent handbook
« Reply #87 on: March 31, 2010, 04:02:46 AM »
They already have a power which grants chakras. I don't know if I would want to open up the totem chakra with a spell or power. I really hate when spells/powers begin to replicate all the good and/or unique class features out there.

Here's my stab at it. Most of those augments and essetia abilities are my own addition, to either fit in the style of psionics and/or to give the mantle it's own advantage over a normal manifesting of the power.

Quote
Incarnum Mantle - You call upon the essence of powerful psions past, shaping their vestigial soul energies into a crystalline familiar.
Granted Ability: You gain a noumenon; functionally similar to a psicrystal as if you had taken the psicrystal affinity feat, except it gains abilities based on your meldshaper level (minimum 1). Once per day you may invest essentia into your noumenon to give it special effects as per the invested essentia effects of a soulspark familiar. Once the amount of essentia is chosen, it cannot be altered and remains invested for 24 hours, though the chosen effect may be changed once per round when you normally reallocate essentia. If you later gain the share soulmeld feat, you may share soulmelds with your noumenon. You also automatically learn the Detect Incarnum power.+

1: Detect Incarnum, Psionic - As per the spell in MoI (p.101). - Gain this power automatically; does not count against your normal limit of powers known
1: Protection from Incarnum, Psionic (E) - As per the spel in MoI (p.104). Essentia: for every point of essentia you invest in this power, you increase the bonuses gained by 1. Ardent augment: If you spend 4 additional power points when manifesting this power, the target may gain essentia while under its effect.
2: Soul Boon, Psionic - As per the spell in MoI (p.104). Ardent augment: For every 3 additional power points spent, the duration increases by 1 minute.
2: Adept Spirit, Psionic - As per the spell in MoI (p.98). Ardent augment: For every additional power point spent, you may affect one additional target.
3: *Open Chakra, Psionic - MoI (p.107), Ardent augment: If you spend 14 additional power points, you can open the subject's heart or soul chakra. Maintaining these chakras is taxing however, and essentia may only be invested or removed from the associated soulmelds as a full round action.
3: Guardian Spirit, Psionic - As per the spell in MoI (p.101). Ardent augment: For every additional power point spent, you may affect one additional target.
4: Conjure Lesser Midnight Construct, Psionic - As per the spell in MoI (p.100). Ardent augment: If you spend 4 additional power points, as per the Conjure Midnight Construct spell. If you spend 8 additional power points, as per the Conjure Greater Midnight Construct spell.
4: Valiant Spirit, Psionic - As per the spell in MoI (p.106). Ardent augment: For every additional power point spent, you may affect one additional target.
5: **Soul Schism (E) - As Schism. Essentia: For every point of essentia you invest in this power, you increase the manifester level of your second soul by one
7: Soul Crystal - MoI (p.107)
8: Incarnum Apotheosis, Psionic - As per the spell in MoI (p.101)

+c'mon, the magic version is a cantrip so I just threw it in there
*this is one level lower than the book
**one level higher than Schism since you're drawing upon an incarnum soul rathan than splitting your own mind which is slightly less efficient, but you get the benefit of using essentia

Kept it all within the same book for the sake of simplicity. I tried to focus on the feeling of soul and creation, which is why I left out the spells like soulmeld disjunction and unbind chakra or any of the spells that trap souls, etc, etc. Hmm, maybe I should make an incarnum mantle that's based on destruction too. I don't really like the feel of the XYZ Spirit spells... I kinda threw them in because of the whole soul/spirit thing. Maybe I'll take those out for something better.

edit: okay took those out, looks cleaner, gave detect as a freebie, added protection, now at 7 powers which I think are all useful
edit 2: changed the granted ability into a "noumenon" based on meldshaper level, because I think it was perhaps too awesome otherwise. Note however that you can now pick up a psicrystal separately.

What do you guys think?
« Last Edit: March 31, 2010, 06:17:46 PM by Surreal »
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Re: Ardent handbook
« Reply #88 on: March 31, 2010, 08:30:14 PM »
Ah right, my level 3 = your level 3, just didn't have the name (at all),
minor questioning of the Augment, which would have a 19 powerpoint -festing.
That'd be a new category, although easily understood.

I'm partial to your level 8 as my level 7, just because it feels more psi like that way.

Soul Crystal - I'd forgotten that one, in spite of Ph00's powerpoint loop. Silly me.

Detect Incarnum is perfect as a non-Aug 1st level power.

Nice flavor on your level 5. I like it.

I feel like a psi version of incarnum, shouldn't work as well as incarnum originally. Just me.
I'm thinking access to soulmelds, but not as well done.
I'm thinking essential available, but in a weird psionic-y sort of way, doesn't work as well, and works different.

Heck, I'm gonna Substitute Powers anyways ...  ;)

Surreal

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Re: Ardent handbook
« Reply #89 on: March 31, 2010, 10:56:43 PM »
double post
« Last Edit: March 31, 2010, 10:58:30 PM by Surreal »
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Surreal

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Re: Ardent handbook
« Reply #90 on: March 31, 2010, 10:57:33 PM »

minor questioning of the Augment, which would have a 19 powerpoint -festing.
That'd be a new category, although easily understood.
Well I felt that giving the mantle access to the heart and soul chakra would be a nice addon, but had to make it available later than a regular meldshaper, hence putting it at 19pp. Considering that there are ways to boost manifester level though, I was thinking just make it 20pp.

Quote
I'm partial to your level 8 as my level 7, just because it feels more psi like that way.

Any particular reason for moving it down a level other than just a power boost? I find it's a pretty powerful effect already, and it seems level appropriate.

Quote
Nice flavor on your level 5. I like it.
Thanks. It was a simple change that just fit perfectly with how incarnum works. You get it a little later than normal, but it's potentially stronger.
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Re: Ardent handbook
« Reply #91 on: April 01, 2010, 08:09:15 PM »

Quote
I'm partial to your level 8 as my level 7, just because it feels more psi like that way.

Any particular reason for moving it down a level other than just a power boost? I find it's a pretty powerful effect already, and it seems level appropriate.


Fewer interactions with Soulmelds, cause you just don't have as many if your Psi stuff is that high level.
And psionics deserves good stuff, but only every once in a while.
 :rollseyes :)

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Re: Ardent handbook
« Reply #92 on: April 01, 2010, 08:38:51 PM »
I can see your point, though bear in mind that the spell can affect other targets too. The fuzzy thing with incarnum is that its power level really goes up or down depending how heavily it's used in the campaign.
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Re: Ardent handbook
« Reply #93 on: April 06, 2010, 06:29:49 PM »
SAMB ... trappedslider has found another of the WotC_Archive spots. From there I found b o t h of Tleilaxu_Ghola's Ardent threads.


These are pre-Mind's Eye updates, but very good in any case:

(1) ... Ardent: Psi-Gish in a Can!
http://69.8.198.229/wotc_archive/index.php/t-625506

(2) ... Ardent Build Compendium
http://69.8.198.229/wotc_archive/index.php/t-697576

Hark the Psionic Angels Sing !!



EDIT --- these links don't work now ... boo wotc.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2010, 08:16:18 PM by awaken DM golem »

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Re: Ardent handbook
« Reply #94 on: July 24, 2010, 09:35:38 PM »
Needs to be mentioned: Psionic-variant abjurant champion can use BAB to determine highest-level powers known, allowing a 9th-level power or two on a mostly martial character.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8791
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The tier system in a nutshell:
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Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
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Re: Ardent handbook
« Reply #95 on: December 06, 2010, 07:04:45 AM »
I've put up some suggestions on PrCs.  I will be finishing the CPsi ones and then moving to the ones on the Mind's eye website.  Sorry it's taken me so long to update.

I did have a question, which was never answered:  Enlarge Power only requires psionic focus and no additional pp cost.  If used with dominant mantle. can I stack it infinitely and gain insane range?

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Re: Ardent handbook
« Reply #96 on: December 06, 2010, 08:34:45 AM »
as written , it appears you can ..... however, your DM might intervene for the sake of game balance

 :D

KellKheraptis

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Re: Ardent handbook
« Reply #97 on: December 06, 2010, 11:34:11 AM »
Perhaps it will make a proper gish out of War Mind?  9th level powers, potentially all good saves, DR/-, Sweeping Strike, and power points right out of the box.  Oh...and are bonus pp based on ML or manifester levels?  If the former, that's twice Wis to pp :D

Bullseye.

Quote from: SRD

Meaning Abjurant Champion will set my ML to my BAB for both classes (as Ardent and Warmind are two separate manifesting entities with their own independent powers known and such), and I receive bonus pp for high Wisdom from each.  Paydirt!

EDIT : And actually, Prime's limit break might be even better.  Going the Warblade route with a level of War Mind or some class with it's own mechanic, and a level of Bard gives access to Song of the White Raven and all the borkedness of Inspire Courage shenanigans, along with 9th level powers and the ability to actually use them, and the tankiness of ardent+psicrystal+share pain if you want it.  Not to mention a ton of d12's if you have a lot of Warblade levels.  I'll see what I can do with it :D

EDIT #2 : Ok, preliminary builds are showing some impressive numbers, but I still want more out of them, particularly if I can bruteforce in Control Body to get Int+Wis to hit and damage using Shiba Protector (lost my copy of OA, so not sure how evil the prereq's are either).  

The first is Ardent 4/Warblade 10/Abjurant Champion 5/War Mind 1 mixed up to taste and maximum power/maneuver selection, as it scores 18 BAB/ML, 15 IL, and saves of 11/8/12.  Also nabs 326 pp assuming a 38 Wisdom (easy enough to do), and can get an Int of 30 as a secondary stat fairly easily.  

The second one is more caster-focused IMO, at Ardent 10/Abjurant Champion 5/War Mind 2/Warblade 3, again mixing to taste and such for maximum usage of ML and IL (which are 17 along with BAB, and 11.5 respectively), with base saves of 10/11 functionally/12 and 438 pp (again assuming 38 Wis).  

Once I get a Shiba build up and running, I'll post it up, though it's a distinct possibility it will NOT have Dominant Ideal, as the second build does, because anything less than 17 BAB/ML really will lose out on the exploit of high pp with relatively few manifesting class.  Also of note, both these builds require all of one feat (Combat Manifesting) and are assumed human, meaning they have tons of room for custom work, including race if you don't have XP penalties for multiclassing outside favored classes.

EDIT #3 : Last one in this post, I promise!  Psychic Warrior 2/Ardent 4/War Mind 2/Shiba Protector 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Warblade 6 nabs stats of ML/BAB 17, saves of 15/7/12, IL 13, and 408 pp assuming a 36 Wis at 20th level.  It will also have 10 Ardent powers known, 2 PsyWar powers known, and 2 War Mind powers known, so not that far behind a usual Ardent gish, and leavng most of the Ardent ones free, as you can snag a good portion of the gishing powers from PsyWar and War Mind selections.  You also get Wis to Hit and Damage, regardless of whatever other stat you use, burn 3 feats to get in, but get two back from PsyWar levels, so you're only down one feat on the above two builds, while gaining quite a bit on all but the Warblade heavy ones (and you have access to the two most important ones, IHS and WRT).  Also, the Ref save is technically higher due to the first level Warblade level.  What do you think?
« Last Edit: December 06, 2010, 12:56:53 PM by KellKheraptis »
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Re: Ardent handbook
« Reply #98 on: December 09, 2010, 04:51:29 AM »
Kell
You are right about the PP gain. You would only lose the PP from the ardent levels not ML. I forgot to put war mind in there as a 5 level PrC. More details and analysis on that later, thanks for the reminder.

As for abjurant champ conversion I'm not too sure about.  I don't have my books on me but does it advance arcane levels or just spellcasting levels?  If the former then you cannot advance ML via transparency but if it the latter then yes.
Also the psi disciplines are not organized thematically like the arcane schools. The proposed psychokintic=abjuration doesn't work. Take telekinesis for example, it would be prototypical psychokinesis power yet it is a transmutation spell.  As much as we all would like it be a conversation, it would require so much work. You would have to go through all the powers and get DM approval for all your desired powers to count as abjuration that it would basically be a homebrew PrC. 

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Re: Ardent handbook
« Reply #99 on: December 09, 2010, 06:58:47 AM »
Also, Abjurant Champion only sets ML=BAB for a single chosen class.
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