Author Topic: Optimizing a Tier 5 Run  (Read 9469 times)

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PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Optimizing a Tier 5 Run
« on: September 23, 2009, 04:35:25 PM »
So I got inspired a while ago (but I am slow replying to the boards) by this and this I was wondering how good a tier 5 party we could make. Yes it is a board's challenge but once I get my builds finished I will participate too. I enjoy large parties so we needn't limit the PC number to 4


Things that will hurt:
[spoiler]All characters must be about tier five! A Character may take up to level 10 in a tier five, and up to level 1 in a tier 4 from any tier 4 class, and up to 20 in a tier 6 class

Prestige classes are limited to the tiers +0, -1 and -2. Keep in mind they might be very difficult to qualify for so "early" entry tricks might be your only hope.

Start at level 2 (but this does not mean character have no backstory. Characters should have a backstory like LA1 and a class level, etc). Why not level 1? Because it erases starting wealth inequality (and I dislike rolling).

WBL and multiclass penalties are enforced.

The most broken aspects of the game are fixed

All characters must play small, ugly goblins. At no point may they have any LA.

Some WLD circumstance house rules will be in effect:
The no traveling-through-walls whether by being ethereal, melding into stone, etc

The no teleportation out or transporting other things in. So no summoning effects, etc.

No turning into another creatures. Polymorph, wildshape, etc give DMs a headache. The exception are those with the shapechanger subtype (if no set list only 1 form must be chosen). Lycanthrope animals can't be templated and such templates make you not gain HD or effects derived from it (skills, hp, feats, ECL, the stat points on the highest stat). Furthermore only natural lycanthropes have the true animal form and both forms only get 1/4 the dominant physical stat, then 1/2 the next stat boost.

XP is gained based on area (this is good if you are good enough to go quickly through the areas). This means no 'farming' easy encounters for crafting XP.

The DM maliciously rolls a random encounter exactly when it would hurt the PCs and they know this (but they will also be told if they are being allowed a temporary safe area.)

This campaign is generally pretty harsh. Expect extreme environments.
[/spoiler]


Things that will help:
[spoiler]Max rolls on hit point rolls. Tripple on the first HD.

The DM will be nice enough to 'throw in' the specific items / creatures / NPCs you need. It aint a magic mart, but you still get the big stuff that you need. This will allow PrC qualification (from fluff) and generally building the kind of character you want.

LA buyoff includes racial HD or LA per level, because having it not count for the level needed to buyoff but still counting for the xp penalty is kinda contradictory.

If a Savage progression of your race is allowed you can use it to lower your LA or HD (just remove the undesired levels). You still decide, as usual, the order of application for inherited templates.

The inherited/acquired template distinction is lost for each time your character is 'dies' or is 'reborn' (necropolitan, dragonborn, etc.). This just keeps book-keeping easier and is some cool fluff IMO. Keep in mind I'm flexible about which is which depending on fluff (feral or draconic post dragonborn should be acquired)

ECL = Floor[HD/2-LA] + LA + Class levels:
Quote from: The Quick and Dirty Summary of the 339 Discussion
Obviously racial casting won't be allowed and skill points for the first level are only done once. Also BaB can't exceed 20 this way and natural healing are not effected by the free racial HD

The LA buyoff does include the free racial HD so their can be more buying off and players actually can play cool races

Example: The ECL of a minotaur (LA2, HD6) is 3+class levels: (6/2 - 2)rounded down + the 2 LA. Basically you get up to 2*LA+1 in free HD and each 2 additional HD adds 1 ECL (just like for NPCs). The +1 helps you play no LA, 1 HD non-humanoids in 3.5
[/spoiler]


The Horribly Painful Point Buy System:
[spoiler]Use a 40 point stats TOTAL. This means you get 34 points to add in addition to the following stats
1 Str
1 Dex
1 Con
1 Int (but will be brought to 3 automatically if no points are put in)
1 Wis
1 Cha

An example is: 7str, 8dex, 10con, 3int, 8wis, 6cha   [7+8+10+(1, not 3)+8+6 = 40]
Another example is: 1str, 1dex, 18con, 18int, 1wis, 1cha   [1+1+18+18+1+1 = 40][/spoiler]


FAQ:
[spoiler]Q: Isn't this impossible?
A: No I don't think so. Obviously getting healing and detection are a high priority.

Q: Why would you ever have such an evil point buy system!?!
A: Because I like it rough  ;) and this is a solid way to do that. Obviously getting +stat items will help.

Q: But I can't use x class! (Crusaders for cheap healing, Dread necro for minion upkeep, etc)
A: Yes, I know. That's part of the challenge. Don't worry too much. Its not like a DM for this kind of a grizzly campaign would throw shape-shifting dire tortoise Incantrix Clerics at you.

Q: I have this awesome Prestige Class that's still +0 but I can't meet the prerequisites!
A: Well maybe you just can't. But unless its terribly specific or violates an above rule, I doubt it. I'm sorry I don't have my early PrC thread up on 339 yet. But everytime I think about it and go over there... AH MY EYES! :banghead

Q: So I think I have something viable but it stinks of cheese!
A: Check the dirty trick handbook fixes (a simply Crtl+F search will do) for the BLATANT offenders. Otherwise bring it on![/spoiler]
« Last Edit: February 13, 2010, 05:39:24 PM by PlzBreakMyCampaign »
[Spoiler]
Quote
An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.
And healed. Don't forget that.
Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.
[/Spoiler]

Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms.

More Funny than Humble[Spoiler]
Quote from: PlzBreakMyCampaign
Your a shifter... you have all you ever need.
It blows MoMF out of the water

But if your greedy for more [Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL.
Quote from: hungryhungryhippo987
Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want.
PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r

PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Optimizing a Tier 5 Run
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2009, 04:36:01 PM »
Reserved
[Spoiler]
Quote
An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.
And healed. Don't forget that.
Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.
[/Spoiler]

Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms.

More Funny than Humble[Spoiler]
Quote from: PlzBreakMyCampaign
Your a shifter... you have all you ever need.
It blows MoMF out of the water

But if your greedy for more [Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL.
Quote from: hungryhungryhippo987
Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want.
PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r

PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Optimizing a Tier 5 Run
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2009, 04:36:19 PM »
Reserved just in case
[Spoiler]
Quote
An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.
And healed. Don't forget that.
Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.
[/Spoiler]

Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms.

More Funny than Humble[Spoiler]
Quote from: PlzBreakMyCampaign
Your a shifter... you have all you ever need.
It blows MoMF out of the water

But if your greedy for more [Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL.
Quote from: hungryhungryhippo987
Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want.
PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r

JaronK

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Re: Optimizing a Tier 5 Run
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2009, 05:01:24 PM »
20 levels of Tier 6 eh?  Let's go for broke!

Dragonborn Water Orc Warrior 20 with Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, Mounted Combat, Ride By Attack, Spirited Charge, Headlong Rush.  Wield a lance, ride a good mount, and go nuts.  What more do you really need?

Oh, and if you want to kick it up, you could go Barbarian 1/Fighter 10/Warrior 9, which I think is legal given your rules, and take Lion Totem of course.  Spend the extra feats on having a second ability other than charging.  Quickdraw, Combat Expertise, and Improved Trip perhaps?

But it sounds like any race is allowed, and you could pump that up a lot.  After all, if your class sucks, you might as well have a strong race.  Half Minotaur Mineral Warrior Water Orc, perhaps?

JaronK

Tshern

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Re: Optimizing a Tier 5 Run
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2009, 05:38:39 PM »
Tier 5, not Tier 6.

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woodenbandman

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Re: Optimizing a Tier 5 Run
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2009, 06:36:51 PM »
Shoot, this shouldn't be any problem at all. My party will be Monk, Warmage, Healer, Fighter soup.

I'm debating how much time to spend on these.

EDIT: Your ECL equasion is very strange and confusing. Give an example. What's the ECL of a minotaur?
Succubus ECL = floor[(6/2)-6] +6 + Class levels = 3+ Class levels.
[spoiler]
Succubus 3/Paladin of Freedom2(Harmonious Knight, Dragonfire Inspiration)Monk1/Warmage1/War Chanter10/whatever.

Point Buy = Str 1(3), Dex 1(3), Con 14(16), Int 10(16), Wis1, Cha 12(28).

Snowflake Wardance

EDIT: Okay, this build is also a headache. To avoid being absolute shit at everything it does, you need to take Warmage and Versatile Spellcaster at level 1, Monk at level 2, and Paladin of Freedom at level 3, which means lots of alignment jumps (possibly through repeated sanctify the wicked and/or mindrape explained in the backstory) At low levels you aren't so bad, tossing out DC 20 chill touches for strength damage and ridiculous Whirling Blade attacks. At level 3, your first Paladin of Freedom level, you take the Harmonious Knight sub level, and the Ascetic Mage feat (this is why you took versatile spellcaster at level 1) for a good AC. If you can reliably avoid being hit, ignore this. Also don't neglect your SLAs. You could probably go straight into War Chanter after taking paladin 1 and just forget all that other stuff, since you have Damage Reduction and you get magic items at higher levels. Anyway the point of this build is that it combines with the Werebear Kensai to do stupid things with BAB.
[/spoiler]

Healy Deelybot
[spoiler]
Warlock/Healer/Eldtrich Disciple.
[/spoiler]

The Warmage
[spoiler]
This one is the hardest. It has the worst stat spread, it is FREAKING BAD, and it can't actually even take levels in its own class. What the fuck?

Well, inspired by the "Optimizing the Worst," this build abuses the tier system itself, taking the first level in a tier 4 class, taking some Healer, and then riding Mystic Theurge all the way, baby. Even better, it also uses Arcane Trickster to eventually achieve level 8 spells.

EDIT: Fuck 9th level spells, I'll settle for 8th or even 7th. I have discovered that Succubi work very very well for casters, in this system, so here goes a succubus warmage.

Succubus3. 3 feats: Earth Sense, Earth Spell, Versatile Spellcaster. 2 flaws: Heighten Spell, Education. (If that's not legal then psychic reformation it)
Warmage1
Healer 1 (at this point you qualify for Mystic Theurge)
Mystic Theurge10
Elemental Savant4
Whatever 1

Point Buy: Str1(3), Dex10(12), Con6(8), Int4(10), Wis3(7), Cha16(32)

Spellgifted either Evocation or Conjuration. Conjuration pulls double duty because healing spells are conjuration.

The main thing here is DC a lot disintegrates and such. Also a good backup healer.

[/spoiler]

And of course: The Barbearian.
Assuming it works:[spoiler]
Half-Orc Werebear3/Barbarian1/Fighter6(Zhentarim Substitution Levels)/Kensai 10 (Dungeoncrasher is, I believe, specifically disallowed).

Stats: 12(22) STR, 6(8) Dex, 10(18) Con, 10(12) Wis, 3 int, 1 cha

Parenthesis are stats in Hybrid Form. First level is in Barbarian, he then becomes an afflicted Lycanthrope and becomes lawful good. He becomes an Honorable Samurai eventually, and goes into Kensai. There is an awesome Combo at ECL 18 when this guy donates his BAB to the War Chanter and everyone's BAB gets raised to 27 or so.
[/spoiler]

EDIT: I see that a lycanthrope gets only half of its primary stat. This is not good for me. What do you mean when you say Lycanthrope Animals can't be templated and don't gain HD or effects based on it? Does that mean that a Werebear doesn't gain 6 animal HD for being a lycanthrope? Or is that in reference to the base creature.

Okay I updated my builds. The two warriors are pretty much just straight-up fighters until ECL 18, at which point they become like unto gods of war via the kensai-war chanter combination. War Chanter qualification via Harmonious Knight sub levels, War Chanter until then. The Warmage has it the hardest, because it requires being a human or halfling (for feats), multiclassing into Healer for 3 levels, and basically sucking the entire time. Arcane Thesis is his best friend in the world. He'll probably select Arcane Thesis/Metamagic School Focus and all that. At least it's worth it to get Prismatic Wall, though.

EDIT AGAIN: Discovered that Succubi are REALLY good given the ECL calculation and the fact that they have hit dice equal to their level adjustment. The Harmonious Knight/War Chanter is now a succubus. Snowflake Wardance is her new best friend, and she'll be putting out some impressive numbers with those. I might even consider tweaking the build for Two Weapon Fighting given the lack of things to spend feats on (also I remembered about Song of the Heart, so tack the total up to 8d6).

I changed the Warmage build to a succubus because the bonus charisma will make up for the loss of caster levels in bonus spells and increased DCs for Disintegrate and stuff. The first warmage was too weak because his stats were spread too thin, he had too few feats, and everything would make their saves. With the new build, nothing will make its save. Healer will be a Healer/Warlock/Eldritch Disciple for infinite free healing (Or is that enlightened spirit? Oh well, add that in too).

How am I doing so far?


JaronK

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Re: Optimizing a Tier 5 Run
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2009, 07:59:10 PM »
Tier 5, not Tier 6.

The OP says 10 levels of Tier 5, 20 of Tier 6, one of Tier 4.  I'm not entirely sure what that means, but I'd take a Warrior 20 over a Fighter 10 for the awesome Power Attack potential.

woodenbandman

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Re: Optimizing a Tier 5 Run
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2009, 10:19:04 PM »
He means that you're limited to that many levels in any given class. Technically, if you had 20 tier 4 classes, you could take 1 level in each, but no more. You can take up to 10 in a tier 5, and 20 in a tier 6.

A Ronin might be at home.

juton

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Re: Optimizing a Tier 5 Run
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2009, 11:56:12 PM »
How about a Human with a level of Expert with the Able Learner feat. You can take the Iajatsu skill from Oriental Adventures to get pseudo sneak attack.

PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Optimizing a Tier 5 Run
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2009, 03:09:05 AM »
JaronK and Woodenbandman are definitely on the right track.

EDIT: Your ECL equasion is very strange and confusing. Give an example. What's the ECL of a minotaur?
I went to school for math so I forget about the non-maths people, sorry. The "Floor" function means round down no matter what the remainder or decimal expansion. So Floor[.9]=0 and Floor[102.51]=102. The ECL of a minotaur (LA2, HD6) is 3 + Class levels. Basically you get up to 2*LA+1 in free HD.

I didn't think that sentence would be confusing but I'm an English teacher so sometimes my language gets a little complex. Woodenbandman is right about the meaning.

Juton, we can do better than that. Remember there are Tier 4 classes that get true sneak attack at their first level. Items help too.

I'll be back later tonight with at least 1 finished build that could abide in such a restricted campaign. It will be cheesy :)
« Last Edit: September 24, 2009, 11:26:07 AM by PlzBreakMyCampaign »
[Spoiler]
Quote
An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.
And healed. Don't forget that.
Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.
[/Spoiler]

Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms.

More Funny than Humble[Spoiler]
Quote from: PlzBreakMyCampaign
Your a shifter... you have all you ever need.
It blows MoMF out of the water

But if your greedy for more [Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL.
Quote from: hungryhungryhippo987
Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want.
PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r

JaronK

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Re: Optimizing a Tier 5 Run
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2009, 03:21:50 AM »
Okay, then I definitely think that since Barbarians are the most front loaded of the T4 classes, a Lion Totem Barbarian/Fighter/Warrior is the way to go.

JaronK

juton

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Re: Optimizing a Tier 5 Run
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2009, 11:57:34 AM »
Juton, we can do better than that. Remember there are Tier 4 classes that get true sneak attack at their first level. Items help too.

From your rules, 1 level of Rogue gets you 1d6 sneak attack, Iaijutsu could net you 9d6 damage on top of that. Taking a level of Rogue is a good idea actually because someone should have trapfinding.

Tshern

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Re: Optimizing a Tier 5 Run
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2009, 01:43:18 PM »
Tier 5, not Tier 6.

The OP says 10 levels of Tier 5, 20 of Tier 6, one of Tier 4.  I'm not entirely sure what that means, but I'd take a Warrior 20 over a Fighter 10 for the awesome Power Attack potential.
Good points, I must've missed that. Sorry.

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Akalsaris

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Re: Optimizing a Tier 5 Run
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2009, 05:32:13 PM »
Here's an entry for an overseas T5 campaign!

Captain Bartholomew Cooke and the Piratical Crew of the Good Ship Ozone!

Captain Cooke, the Blaster from the Depths!
Damage/Damage: Water Halfling Adept 8/Stormcaster 10/Storm Lord 2
How it works: Arr!  It be an adept blaster who focuses on Lightning Bolts and Call Lightning!  Basically, use the Eberron Adept to gain a domain, and take the Storm Domain from SpC to get Gust of Wind to qualify for Stormcaster and get a bunch of appropriately themed spells.
Problems: None mechanically, though he won't be all that powerful - he's an adept blaster, for chrissake!

First Mate Short Tom Mithril and Second Mate Flameburst
Tank/Damage: Water Halfling Paladin 6/Halfling Outrider 2/Beastmaster 2/Halfling Outrider+8/Knight of the Pearl 3
How it works: Eh, just the usual supermount build for a 25 HD celestial very young bronze dragon with a paladin attached to it.
Problems: Depends on whether the paladin's mount constitutes a 'summoning' effect, but I don't remember it being called out in the WLD as such.  Also, Halfling Outrider is listed as +1 in the Tier System for PrCs, which I disagree with - except for letting you pull off Supermount, this PrC is a bloody sea dog with fleas! 

Bones McHeals, Ship's Doctor
Healing/Battlefield Control: Water Halfling Healer 5/Adept 1/Morninglord of Lathander 10/Healer +4
How it works: Use the Eberron adept to get the Water domain so you  have turning to qualify for Morninglord, and you end up with a character that can turn/rebuke water creatures to a mediocre degree, has some fire-based and water-based spells for ship-to-ship combat, and a relies heavily on spells from the BoED to be useful besides healing.

Quartermaster Blackbeard Morgan
Perception/Damage: Deep Dwarf Ranger 1/Sneak Attack Fighter 4/Avenging Executioner 5/Barbarian 1/Dread Commando 5/Shadow Thief of Amn 4
How it works: ~19 BAB, 4d6 SA+6d6 SS, so a basic scout and 2-weapon fighter with a few tricks using intimidate and whatnot.  And pounce/rage from the barbarian dip.  Use the Dungeonscape variant to get trap-finding, and keep perception skills maximized.

bearsarebrown

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Re: Optimizing a Tier 5 Run
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2009, 06:47:47 PM »
The big money here seems to be templates. I can throw Half-Minotaur onto a Warrior and it be, well, not Tier 5 anymore!

awaken DM golem

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Re: Optimizing a Tier 5 Run
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2009, 07:16:58 PM »
Psi - yer looking at a limited palate. Divine Mind, Soulknife, and Lurk without the Trapfinding variant.
Maybe squeeze in a Wilder with the Mantled variant, and pick a really bad Mantle to nerf it
Psion Uncarnate PrC is a low powered option, and does get you the nice capstone, with lots of pain on the way.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Optimizing a Tier 5 Run
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2009, 07:27:37 PM »
The big money here seems to be templates. I can throw Half-Minotaur onto a Warrior and it be, well, not Tier 5 anymore!
Nah, it would still be tier 5. If you said "half-fey", I might agree, though. :P
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

DavidWL

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Re: Optimizing a Tier 5 Run
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2009, 06:04:09 AM »
All characters must be about tier five! A Character may take up to level 10 in a tier five, and up to level 1 in a tier 4 from any tier 4 class, and up to 20 in a tier 6 class.

A self-bump and just for fun, here's a reminder about Sam:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=365.msg7183#msg7183

The point being that feats and a template are really all you need to break dnd.  (Less than that, really).  Of course, effectiveness is partly a function of starting level.

Best,
David
Some Cool Quotes:  [spoiler]
Quote from: unknown
Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.

-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better.

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The most powerful character is the one that you actually get to play.

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I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/spoiler]
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woodenbandman

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Re: Optimizing a Tier 5 Run
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2009, 01:21:28 AM »
Whoa. A Minotaur is an ECL 3?

:D In that case, my Barbearian is an ECL 4 or so, and gets +16 strength and a lot of hit dice. Shoot, apply that to everyone. What's the starting level?

The two fighters are a Werebear Samurai/Ronin/blah, and a Werebear Monk/Fighter/Stuff. The warmage has to be a strongheart halfling or human, and the healer could be an Anthropomorphic Bat, I think, or if a healer needs Charisma, then an aasimar/lesser aasimar.

Your lack of parentheses confused the shit outta me. (HD/2) - LA, not HD/(2-LA)! So a Werebear has an ECL of 3+ Class levels. The second reading results in dividing by zero and all kinda shit.

Anklebite

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Re: Optimizing a Tier 5 Run
« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2009, 02:34:32 AM »
and as we all know, only void disciples are allowed to divide by zero.
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