Author Topic: Dumbass America?  (Read 34140 times)

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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Dumbass America?
« Reply #180 on: September 22, 2009, 12:09:35 PM »
-Clinton was almost impeeched for adultery.
Clinton was ACTUALLY impeached ...... for perjury.  The result of that impeachment was that he was censured by congress.  I'm not gonna debate the "should/shouldn't have" issue, because I don't care and it's a moot point.  
Congress voted to impeach him, but the measure never passed in the Senate. This is exactly what happened with the other US president whom impeachment proceedings were carried out to the end against. Nixon resigned before they could finish his, as I mentioned earlier.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Alastar

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Re: Dumbass America?
« Reply #181 on: September 22, 2009, 12:11:08 PM »
Yes and no.

Some of the people still believed in the government in all cases.  If the army had stopped believing in the government, what would have happened then.  The government's power is still rooted in it's people, since in all those cases, those were governments that ruled militarly, and the army is part of the people.

If the army decided that, fuck it, that's just too fucking crazy to do, then the government would be a bit dumbfounded.

Propaganda is a very powerful tool indeed, because it can make people believe in you, in what you are trying to do.

If everyone, EVERYONE, not just a majority, decided that the last law was batshit crazy and to not apply it, you would see that law go away pretty much instantly.

If you nuke your own countrymen, than you have power over nothing.
If you arrest all of your own countrymen, than you have power over nothing.

(anyways, I just wanted to express an opinion about that, not start a debate about the origin of power)

Alastar

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Re: Dumbass America?
« Reply #182 on: September 22, 2009, 12:12:17 PM »
-Clinton was almost impeeched for adultery.
Clinton was ACTUALLY impeached ...... for perjury.  The result of that impeachment was that he was censured by congress.  I'm not gonna debate the "should/shouldn't have" issue, because I don't care and it's a moot point.  

and everything else in that post indicates even more cluelessness on your part -- I'm not even gonna bother.

So what, you're right by virtue of: I don't bother replying because I'm so superior?

Thanks for proving once again what an ignorant asshole you are ! :D

wotmaniac

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Re: Dumbass America?
« Reply #183 on: September 22, 2009, 12:13:13 PM »
-Clinton was almost impeeched for adultery.
Clinton was ACTUALLY impeached ...... for perjury.  The result of that impeachment was that he was censured by congress.  I'm not gonna debate the "should/shouldn't have" issue, because I don't care and it's a moot point.  
Congress voted to impeach him, but the measure never passed in the Senate. This is exactly what happened with the other US president whom impeachment proceedings were carried out to the end against. Nixon resigned before they could finish his, as I mentioned earlier.
my bad.  
i think it was in deed the House's vote that I was thinking of.

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If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Dumbass America?
« Reply #184 on: September 22, 2009, 12:15:45 PM »
Yes and no.

Some of the people still believed in the government in all cases.  If the army had stopped believing in the government, what would have happened then.  The government's power is still rooted in it's people, since in all those cases, those were governments that ruled militarly, and the army is part of the people.

If the army decided that, fuck it, that's just too fucking crazy to do, then the government would be a bit dumbfounded.
It is very easy to treat the army very well, and treat everyone else like crap, though. In that case, it is very unlikely that the army is going to rebel, and none of the other people matter if they don't have some way of violently overthrowing the power of the army. This has been played out countless times over thousands of years, and I doubt it would be any less true today. (In fact, there are places where it is being played out right now.)

Quote
Propaganda is a very powerful tool indeed, because it can make people believe in you, in what you are trying to do.

If everyone, EVERYONE, not just a majority, decided that the last law was batshit crazy and to not apply it, you would see that law go away pretty much instantly.
Yes, and if wishes were horses then dreamers would ride. ;)

Quote
If you nuke your own countrymen, than you have power over nothing.
If you arrest all of your own countrymen, than you have power over nothing.
You don't have to nuke/arrest them all, just enough to cow everyone else in to submission.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

wotmaniac

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Re: Dumbass America?
« Reply #185 on: September 22, 2009, 12:16:00 PM »
-Clinton was almost impeeched for adultery.
Clinton was ACTUALLY impeached ...... for perjury.  The result of that impeachment was that he was censured by congress.  I'm not gonna debate the "should/shouldn't have" issue, because I don't care and it's a moot point.  

and everything else in that post indicates even more cluelessness on your part -- I'm not even gonna bother.

So what, you're right by virtue of: I don't bother replying because I'm so superior?

Thanks for proving once again what an ignorant asshole you are ! :D
no, I'm just saying that I don't find enough merit in anything you had to say to warrant actually spend energy on debating it.

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

wotmaniac

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Re: Dumbass America?
« Reply #186 on: September 22, 2009, 12:17:39 PM »
Yes and no.

Some of the people still believed in the government in all cases.  If the army had stopped believing in the government, what would have happened then.  The government's power is still rooted in it's people, since in all those cases, those were governments that ruled militarly, and the army is part of the people.

If the army decided that, fuck it, that's just too fucking crazy to do, then the government would be a bit dumbfounded.
It is very easy to treat the army very well, and treat everyone else like crap, though. In that case, it is very unlikely that the army is going to rebel, and none of the other people matter if they don't have some way of violently overthrowing the power of the army. This has been played out countless times over thousands of years, and I doubt it would be any less true today. (In fact, there are places where it is being played out right now.)

Quote
Propaganda is a very powerful tool indeed, because it can make people believe in you, in what you are trying to do.

If everyone, EVERYONE, not just a majority, decided that the last law was batshit crazy and to not apply it, you would see that law go away pretty much instantly.
Yes, and if wishes were horses then dreamers would ride. ;)

Quote
If you nuke your own countrymen, than you have power over nothing.
If you arrest all of your own countrymen, than you have power over nothing.
You don't have to nuke/arrest them all, just enough to cow everyone else in to submission.
which is precisely why Kim Jong Il is still in power.

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

Alastar

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Re: Dumbass America?
« Reply #187 on: September 22, 2009, 12:23:43 PM »
Than stop posting, instead of posting to tell me that you will not debate, what's the point of that, except to try and denigrate my point of view without putting ideas forward?!?

@PhaedruxXY

I fully agree with you, I'm just trying to underline the origin of power here, I fully well know that treating the army well will guarantee continued power, and that it is a dreamer's wish to hope that everyone would act in a unified way.

But isn't it way easier than to govern in a way that won't cause riots ! :)

And so, at least modern governments, will not pass bills that are met with widespread opposition most of the time.  It's bad for re-election for once, and second of all, especially in the issue of taking away gun rights, well, you're trying to thread on the territory of armed people looking for an excuse, that can't end well.  It's why as long as there is sucha  mentality in the states, guns will stay.  I'm just saying mentality should change, and then steps can be taken.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Dumbass America?
« Reply #188 on: September 22, 2009, 12:51:03 PM »
And so, at least modern governments, will not pass bills that are met with widespread opposition most of the time.  It's bad for re-election for once, and second of all, especially in the issue of taking away gun rights, well, you're trying to thread on the territory of armed people looking for an excuse, that can't end well.  It's why as long as there is sucha  mentality in the states, guns will stay.  I'm just saying mentality should change, and then steps can be taken.
But you're still talking about democracies, and governments that actually give a crap what the populace thinks. That isn't the only form of government that exists in the modern world, you know. And it is fairly easy for one of those to collapse and turn into something else. Look at the Communist Revolution in China. You know what kind of government they had right before that? A democracy.

You know what the Germans had before WW2? Or what the Romans had before Caesar (Ok, not really, but it was a Republic)? It is very easy for a government to change its nature, given the right kind of socio-economic environment. Hell, look what Bush/Cheney were doing. They basically just started ignoring all kinds of stuff and grabbing more power on the pretense of "protecting America", which is the same crap that countless dictators have used to grab power and squash democracy in the past.

No, you can't just trust the government with limitless power. You need to keep a close eye on them, and keep them on a short leash, especially when it comes to matters of freedom of speech, democratic decision making, foreign policy, war, etc. I am all for letting them manage things like health care and roads, though.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Alastar

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Re: Dumbass America?
« Reply #189 on: September 22, 2009, 12:57:25 PM »
Indeed,I agree with you, I think we're both agreeing on the same thing here, but approaching from different paths.

But at the same time, I think a change in the right direction would be a centralised world government that has the people's interest at heart and the power to change things weither the masses oppose it or not.

But then, what is right and what is wrong, what is good and what is bad, I do not feel confident answering those issues, since I do not believe my judgment to be above that of someone else's  (though I am willing to defend my point of view)

But I'm derailing this thread...  let's go back to the core issue.

Guns suck!  YEah!!! :P

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Dumbass America?
« Reply #190 on: September 22, 2009, 01:13:36 PM »
But at the same time, I think a change in the right direction would be a centralised world government that has the people's interest at heart and the power to change things weither the masses oppose it or not.
I couldn't disagree much more. Even if such a government started out with "the peoples' interests at heart", what is to keep it that way, if the people have no way to control it? I think it is really foolish to wish for such a thing. That's basically like willingly signing up to be a slave.

Quote
But I'm derailing this thread...  let's go back to the core issue.

Guns suck!  YEah!!! :P
I don't think what we're discussing is off topic at all. I think the clause about the right to bear arms was put in the US constitution precisely because they'd already had to violently overthrow one oppressive government, and they wanted to make sure they had the means to do so again, if it became necessary. It is certainly easier to oppress and control a disarmed populace than one that is armed. That's of course not the reason people typically discuss, nor even the one mentioned in the Constitution, but I think it is the real one.

And even if it isn't realistic for citizens to resist the army of a (hypothetical) repressive goverment, it is still probably some disincentive to would-be tyrants. Armed citizens would have a lot better chance against local law enforcement, which is how that government would typically enforce its will on the individual level.

The real reasons I'd oppose making guns illegal have already been outlined, though, and they basically boil down to wanting to be able to defend my family effectively. I don't give a crap about the would-be criminal's rights, when it comes down to him or me. He basically gave those up when he decided to try and violate mine. Police response times will never be adequate, unless personal teleportation becomes a reality. If effective multishot tasers are ever sold, I'll certainly consider one. Until then, I'll be using a gun.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Alastar

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Re: Dumbass America?
« Reply #191 on: September 22, 2009, 01:30:42 PM »
True, but at the same time, the current limitations of the government, due to its need to get re-elected, and the ignorant masses who have no idea about the issues of today and the needs of tommorow, and only care about one or two issues (we all have those, and I think they're stupid, in U.S.A it's guns ''will the government try to take my guns''  In quebec it's independance ''will the government try to make us independent'').  Most of the time those issues are totally irreflective of the current problems and should not even be adressed in the campaigns portfolio, but somehow, those totally irrelevant things always seem to become major points, when the real things, like economic plans, social reforms, possible law changes, wealth fare, military plans, budget, those things are ignored by most people.

I know it is a dream on my part, and I know it's probably not possible, but I still feel that if an educated and citizen picked handful of people were given the right to act on behalf of society's best intention, it could go for the best as well as for the worst.  If only there was a way to make sure it was for the best, than I would probably be for it, but I can't think of a single way to do that, so so far it IS wishful thinking and I AM aware of it.

I feel that a way to reach that is proper education (getting the freaking church out of school would be a start, creationism, while very respectful of the church, is nowhere near accurate, and should not be thaught to toddlers, at least that's how I feel, and I might get attacked on that point yet again)

Another would be a higher governmental focus on the development of technology outside of warfare.  Such as alternate energy sources that do not consume fossil fuels. 

I just feel that the way that society, especially american society since it is such a major player in the world, is going is just setting us on a self destructive course for such fleeting goals such as money, and that trying anything at that point is better than to keep going the way we are.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Dumbass America?
« Reply #192 on: September 22, 2009, 01:57:05 PM »
I just feel that the way that society, especially american society since it is such a major player in the world, is going is just setting us on a self destructive course for such fleeting goals such as money, and that trying anything at that point is better than to keep going the way we are.
I understand where you're coming from, but things could certainly be worse, and trying anything is not better than letting things evolve and trying to educate people and slowly push things in the direction that you'd like. That's what civil society is about, after all: learning to reach agreements to difficulties in a fair and peaceful manner, rather than forcing your ideas on someone else violently. It takes time for cultural norms to change and societies to evolve. We're a lot better at building new technologies than we are at evolving socially.

A lot of the "issues" you object to are just red herrings pushed by the political parties to lead ignorant people around by the nose. Eventually people will "wise up", as I think they have somewhat as evidenced by the election of Obama. Of course, there will no doubt be some other new silly issue that is used to mislead people after that, but that's just the nature of the beast, I guess. And evidence to the power of propaganda. ;)
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Alastar

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Re: Dumbass America?
« Reply #193 on: September 22, 2009, 02:14:10 PM »
I just feel that the way that society, especially american society since it is such a major player in the world, is going is just setting us on a self destructive course for such fleeting goals such as money, and that trying anything at that point is better than to keep going the way we are.
I understand where you're coming from, but things could certainly be worse, and trying anything is not better than letting things evolve and trying to educate people and slowly push things in the direction that you'd like. That's what civil society is about, after all: learning to reach agreements to difficulties in a fair and peaceful manner, rather than forcing your ideas on someone else violently. It takes time for cultural norms to change and societies to evolve. We're a lot better at building new technologies than we are at evolving socially.

A lot of the "issues" you object to are just red herrings pushed by the political parties to lead ignorant people around by the nose. Eventually people will "wise up", as I think they have somewhat as evidenced by the election of Obama. Of course, there will no doubt be some other new silly issue that is used to mislead people after that, but that's just the nature of the beast, I guess. And evidence to the power of propaganda. ;)

Agreed.  Unfortunately, I fear that some people will never wise up, and that,s just a shame...   I am in no way behind any sort of government that would force itself to power, but I feel that if a government is trying to help its people, than the uneducated masses, however more they are, are just an obstacle to social evolution.

Groupings like that of the 9/12 showed in the OP's post, where masses and masses, hordes even, of uneducated people, come forth to disrespect their elected president with false information and a lot of ignorance and fear, just make me want to weep...

Even at the worst of Bush's term, his last hardcore defenders kept saying : He is the president, do not disrespect the President, whatever he does.

And now those people have turned around after not even 1 year in term, and are saying things like: Obama is a nazy!  Obama rimes with OSAMA!!!  We don't want CZARs, Jesus wasn't a CZAR!!!

I feel the election of President Obama is a step in the right direction too, and hope we can move on from there, but the ignorance of such a vast crowd of people, however respectful of property they are, fills me with dread for the upcoming years...  and especially the next elections.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Dumbass America?
« Reply #194 on: September 22, 2009, 02:23:09 PM »
I am in no way behind any sort of government that would force itself to power, but I feel that if a government is trying to help its people, than the uneducated masses, however more they are, are just an obstacle to social evolution.
That sounds like a contradictory statement to me. If a government ignores the wishes of the "uneducated masses", then it is by definition using force to push it's agenda upon them. Making someone do something against their will is basically the definition of ruling by force, isn't it?

I understand that there are a lot of ignorant people in the US, but the way to combat ignorance is through education, not force. That only breeds more resentment, and an unwillingness to see things from another point of view.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Alastar

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Re: Dumbass America?
« Reply #195 on: September 22, 2009, 02:30:43 PM »

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Dumbass America?
« Reply #196 on: September 22, 2009, 02:42:45 PM »
Patience, persuasiveness and an appeal to reasonableness. Yeah, I know. That seems about as far-fetched as your one-world benevolent government. ;)

I think even most religious people are opposed to support keeping church and state separated, though. Otherwise they risk what happens if the state doesn't favor their religion. So we should count ourselves lucky that religious people argue with each other more than they do with non-religious people, and leave them to it.

Don't try to argue with them at all from the angle that they're wrong. The correct approach would be "do you really want the government controlling what religious ideas get taught to your children?" "No? Ok, good. Neither do I."

And then the argument usually comes down to evolution vs. creationism (another red herring). Evolution is the currently best understood scientific explanation for how life on earth came to be the way it is. So naturally that is what is taught. Not all religious people even have objections to it. These are the arguments that keep school curricula reasonable, even in a social climate like the one found in the US.

In fact, evolution is taught in secondary school science classrooms in most parts of the US. It is just the edge cases that you hear about in the news, like the Kansas schoolboard that tried to get "creationism" taught alongside it. And I think even that was eventually overturned, wasn't it?
« Last Edit: September 22, 2009, 03:45:36 PM by PhaedrusXY »
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Alastar

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Re: Dumbass America?
« Reply #197 on: September 22, 2009, 03:00:58 PM »
I can't say, I didn't follow that much.

I think I can safely say that both our points of view are somewhat similar, as in: Change needs to happen, progressive slow change, and this change starts with education.

Then we can get to the part of rebuilding, reforming, when everyone is behind this idea.


Johannixx

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Re: Dumbass America?
« Reply #198 on: September 23, 2009, 12:44:47 AM »
But at the same time, I think a change in the right direction would be a centralised world government that has the people's interest at heart and the power to change things weither the masses oppose it or not.

Funny, I can think of a few people who had the exact same notion:  Pol Pot, Mao Zedong, Joseph Stalin, Adolf Hitler...

All of them thought they were doing what was best for 'the people', whether 'the people' agreed or not.  That kind of megalomania is what breeds wars, mass genocide, intentional famine, etc etc.

InnaBinder

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Re: Dumbass America?
« Reply #199 on: September 23, 2009, 01:06:38 AM »
....and, we've hit Godwin.  :(
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