Need Fighter/Rogue Gestalt

[kevin_video]

I was looking through Unearthed Arcana, and it talks about Gestalts. Forward to Dragon Magazine 310, and it has examples. Of course they're mostly of Barbarians and Rangers. What I'm looking for is the complete 20 level progression of a Fighter/Rogue. Can anyone possibly help me with that? Please? It'd be perfect for my player's upcoming campaign since he wants to go straight Fighter in a dungeon filled campaign.

[j0lt]

To make a gestalt character, you simply get the better stat increase between the two, as well as the special class abilities from both.

For example, at level 1, a Fighter gets d10 hit dice, +1 BAB, +2 Fort, and no bonus to Ref and Will saves.
A level 1 Rogue gets d6 hit dice, +0 BAB, +2 Ref, and no bonus to Fort or Will saves.

A gestalt Ftr/Rog would get a d10 hit die, +1 BAB, +2 Fort, +2 Ref, +0 Will, as well as the special class abilities from both classes.

All the skills from both class list are class skills, and the Rogue class provides more skill points, so you take those.

for more detailed information, check here:  http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm

[kevin_video]

Well see, that's not the problem. I've got lots of references, but I'm a visual medium. Unless I'm actually SHOWN how to do it, I don't know. And while I tried to do it while looking at the other combinations that were done in the Dragon Magazine, the variances change each time, and nothing's really consistent, so I get completely lost. About the only thing I do know is that by the time we're done, it'll have +17 for BAB. That's about it. Hence why I was asking for a full 20 level progression.

[veekie]

Thats odd, a 3/4 BAB gestalted to a full BAB should be getting a full BAB out of it...

[kevin_video]

Thats odd, a 3/4 BAB gestalted to a full BAB should be getting a full BAB out of it...

That's based on what I saw in the magazine for a Ranger/Rogue.

[bkdubs123]

Well see, that's not the problem. I've got lots of references, but I'm a visual medium. Unless I'm actually SHOWN how to do it, I don't know. And while I tried to do it while looking at the other combinations that were done in the Dragon Magazine, the variances change each time, and nothing's really consistent, so I get completely lost. About the only thing I do know is that by the time we're done, it'll have +17 for BAB. That's about it. Hence why I was asking for a full 20 level progression.

Well, then you're still lost, because with gestalt rules, by the time you're done it should have +20 BAB.

Ftr/Rog

HD: d10

Saves: Good Fort, Good Ref, Poor Will

LV  Base Attack Bonus    Class Features
1.   +1                  Bonus Feat, Sneak Attack +1d6, Trapfinding
2.   +2                  Bonus Feat, Evasion
3.   +3                  Sneak Attack +2d6, Trap Sense +1
4.   +4                  Bonus Feat, Uncanny Dodge
5.   +5                  Sneak Attack +3d6
6.   +6/+1               Bonus Feat, Trap Sense +2
7.   +7/+2               Sneak Attack +4d6
8.   +8/+3               Bonus Feat, Improved Uncanny Dodge
9.   +9/+4               Sneak Attack +5d6, Trap Sense +3
10.  +10/+5              Bonus Feat, Special Ability
11.  +11/+6/+1           Sneak Attack +6d6
12.  +12/+7/+2           Bonus Feat, Trap Sense +4
13.  +13/+8/+3           Sneak Attack +7d6, Special Ability
14.  +14/+9/+4           Bonus Feat
15.  +15/+10/5           Sneak Attack +8d6, Trap Sense +5
16.  +16/+11/+6/+1       Bonus Feat, Special Ability
17.  +17/+12/+7/+2       Sneak Attack +9d6
18.  +18/+13/+8/+3       Bonus Feat, Trap Sense +6
19.  +19/+14/+9/+4       Sneak Attack +10d6, Special Ability
20.  +20/+15/+10/+5      Bonus Feat

Class Skills (8+Int per level, x4 at first level): Rogue's list + Handle Animal and Ride.

Proficiencies: All simple and martial weapons, and all armors and shields (including tower shields).

[kevin_video]

Okay, well if I'm still getting it so wrong, could someone please go through Dragon Magazine 310, look at pages 24-29, and pages 60-65 (assuming you don't have the pdf that cuts off page 65), and tell me what I was looking at? Those looked like Gestalt examples to me, and I'd very much like to be not confused.

[bkdubs123]

My above table is what a gestalt Fighter/Rogue looks like. I'm not sure what it was you were looking at, but in the description of the article it says, "multiclassing the revised Ranger," so something seems to be amiss. I'll have more information for you on what the heck the magazine is doing in a few minutes.

EDIT: Okay, yeah, they are literally just multiclassing the Ranger with Rogue in that magazine in a strict Ranger 10/Rogue 10 build. That is of course NOT how gestalt works.

[Viletta Vadim]

The article you're looking at is most likely not gestalt, but multiclass, with a 50/50 split between a full BAB class and a medium BAB class, a la Ranger/Rogue, perhaps collapsed into a single class progression.  This is fundamentally different from gestalt, and if you want gestalt, you should probably lock that article away for the duration of the exercise.

Gestalt is an extremely high-power variant rule that grants those who take it full use of two completely parallel class progressions.  You do not average or mix or stagger ability gains.  You get both sides, in full effect, taking whatever is best, so if you have a level 3 Archivist/Wizard gestalt, you have level 3 Archivist casting and level 3 Wizard casting, with the Archivist's d6 HD and 4+ skill points, because they're better, as well as all class features from both.

Now, the question becomes, do you want a gestalt, or do you want a multiclass?

[kevin_video]

Now, the question becomes, do you want a gestalt, or do you want a multiclass?

Hmm, well the 50/50 makes sense I suppose. I guess the better question is what's more balanced? If the gestalt is overpowered in the way it'd probably be the same a Pathfinder class, and not a regular class, then I think I'd probably go with the multi-class just because that way they're not a one-man army, and leaving the other players with regular classes in their dust.

[Viletta Vadim]

Pathfinder does not tremendously upgrade most of the classes that actually need it.

Now, as for how appropriate gestalt is as opposed to multiclass, that depends on the group and the general level of power.  If you have a Wizard on the team, and the player knows how to put her power to use, then the Fighter/Rogue is definitely going to need help to keep up, and the gestalt would certainly help.  Particularly since neither Fighter nor Rogue are particularly powerful classes to begin with.  However, if you have something more along the lines of Ranger, Marshal, and Healer as the other party members, then yes, gestalt would be out of line.  So, the question becomes, what's the rest of the party and how good are they at putting the rules to use?

Also, do note that if you're going to let one person use gestalt rules, but not everyone else, you're going to have to run that by the group and get their approval, because if they don't agree, then it's the very definition of unfair.  And if you want to outright run a gestalt campaign, where everyone is gestalt, 1) They need to know for their builds, and 2) It ramps up the power level a lot.

[kevin_video]

Hmm. In that case maybe I should make them both gestalt. Have a Fighter/Rogue, and then a Healer/Sorcerer. That'd probably make it a lot more fair that way. Just need a way of figuring that little tidbit out for the Healer/Sorcerer, and give the Healer spontaneous casting to make things easier.

BTW, going gestalt, does that give the character access to both sets of skills at once? Like how a normal fighter has handle animal, ride, a swim, but a regular rogue does not. I don't see that on UA. Maybe I missed that somewhere. I did see how it says "Rogue's list" so I guess you wouldn't. Just looking for confirmation.

EDIT: And while it's not much, I'd probably add in the dead level progressions:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20070227x

[bkdubs123]

BTW, going gestalt, does that give the character access to both sets of skills at once? Like how a normal fighter has handle animal, ride, a swim, but a regular rogue does not. I don't see that on UA. Maybe I missed that somewhere. I did see how it says "Rogue's list" so I guess you wouldn't. Just looking for confirmation.

Oh, wow, sorry, it does, I just assumed that anything a Fighter had a Rogue would have since the Fighter's list is so small, so YES, you'd have the Rogue's list + Handle Animal, Ride, and Swim. (Ah, okay, Rogues do at least have Swim )

[kevin_video]

Okay, they do have Swim. I must have looked at it too fast. But that's good to know that the class skill lists do mix.

[kevin_video]

In accordance to my previous post regarding dead levels, and the WotC link, I updated it once more. But yeah, this is definitely powerful. But you gotta wonder how bad an idea it would be to mix classes that have the same BAB, HD, and Saves. Just what would you be gaining? Nothing really.

Link to core class dead level upgrades: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a

Ftr/Rog

HD: d10

Saves: Good Fort, Good Ref, Poor Will

LV  Base Att Bonus    Class Features
1.   +1                  Bonus Feat, Sneak Attack +1d6, Trapfinding
2.   +2                  Bonus Feat, Evasion
3.   +3                  Sneak Attack, Physical Prowess, +2d6, Trap Sense +1
4.   +4                  Bonus Feat, Uncanny Dodge
5.   +5                  Physical Prowess, Sneak Attack +3d6
6.   +6/+1               Bonus Feat, Trap Sense +2
7.   +7/+2               Physical Prowess, Sneak Attack +4d6
8.   +8/+3               Bonus Feat, Improved Uncanny Dodge
9.   +9/+4               Physical Prowess, Sneak Attack +5d6, Trap Sense +3
10.  +10/+5              Bonus Feat, Special Ability
11.  +11/+6/+1           Physical Prowess, Sneak Attack +6d6
12.  +12/+7/+2           Bonus Feat, Trap Sense +4
13.  +13/+8/+3           Physical Prowess, Sneak Attack +7d6, Special Ability
14.  +14/+9/+4           Bonus Feat, Makeshift Tools
15.  +15/+10/5           Physical Prowess, Sneak Attack +8d6, Trap Sense +5
16.  +16/+11/+6/+1       Bonus Feat, Special Ability
17.  +17/+12/+7/+2       Physical Prowess, Sneak Attack +9d6
18.  +18/+13/+8/+3       Bonus Feat, Trap Sense +6
19.  +19/+14/+9/+4       Physical Prowess, Sneak Attack +10d6, Special Ability
20.  +20/+15/+10/+5      Bonus Feat, Skilled Saboteur

Class Skills (8+Int per level, x4 at first level): Rogue's list + Handle Animal and Ride.

Proficiencies: All simple and martial weapons, and all armors and shields (including tower shields).

[Korimyr the Rat]

In accordance to my previous post regarding dead levels, and the WotC link, I updated it once more. But yeah, this is definitely powerful. But you gotta wonder how bad an idea it would be to mix classes that have the same BAB, HD, and Saves. Just what would you be gaining? Nothing really.

Class features.

Paladin and Ranger have the same BAB, similar HD (same in Pathfinder), and overlapping Saves. (Except, again, in Pathfinder where the Paladin picks up Will.) You'd think a Gestalt Paladin/Ranger would be practically a single-class character? You'd be terribly, terribly wrong.

Two (or three) good saves with Divine Grace and Evasion makes them difficult to affect with most magic. Picking Evil Outsiders, Undead, and Dragons as Favored Enemies makes every swing during the Paladin's Smite ability count for more. In D&D, their normally weak spellcasting uses the same attribute for both classes, and provides a number of interesting options.

You get the same situation with Sorcerer/Shugenja. You can afford to lose a couple of caster levels between the two classes to pick up Paladin 2/Pious Templar 1/Divine Oracle 2, and use the spellcasting selection of both classes to have a very broad variety of options in any given round, combined with tremendous depth-- and an irritating ability to shrug off saving throws. Of course, this build works tremendously better if you replace either class with Favored Soul.

Bard/Warlock is a similar case.

[Prime32]

Paladin and Ranger have the same BAB, similar HD (same in Pathfinder), and overlapping Saves. (Except, again, in Pathfinder where the Paladin picks up Will.) You'd think a Gestalt Paladin/Ranger would be practically a single-class character? You'd be terribly, terribly wrong.

Two (or three) good saves with Divine Grace and Evasion makes them difficult to affect with most magic. Picking Evil Outsiders, Undead, and Dragons as Favored Enemies makes every swing during the Paladin's Smite ability count for more. In D&D, their normally weak spellcasting uses the same attribute for both classes, and provides a number of interesting options.

So it's as good as a paladin//druid, is it?

You could improve it by switching to paladin of tyranny and taking hexblade levels on one side to pick up Mettle (evasion for Will and Fort). In the meantime your aura of despair and dark companion are inflicting penalties to your enemies. Monk and rogue levels will get you evasion (and some bonus feats) faster than ranger.