Author Topic: [Pathfinder] Updating prestige classes for use with Pathfinder.  (Read 4963 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Sommunist

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 39
[Pathfinder] Updating prestige classes for use with Pathfinder.
« on: September 06, 2009, 04:52:40 AM »
Something I noticed while reading the new Pathfinder PHB is that a few of the standard SRD classes haven't been updated.  This kinda sucks, so I figure I'd take a stab at it.

Dwarven Defender
[spoiler]

Hit Die: d12

Requirements
Race: Dwarf
Alignment: Any lawful
BAB: +7
Feats: Combat Expertise, Endurance, Toughness
Dodge was kind of a weird feat, given this class doesn't move all that much.  Expertise makes more sense.  The other requirements were OK.

Class Skills: Craft (Int), Perception (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis)
Skill Points: 2 + Int
Crappy skill list, but with Pathfinder's rework of class skills it's not terrible.

LevelBABFortRefWillAC BonusSpecial
1+1+1+0+1+1Defensive Stance
2+2+2+1+2+1Uncanny Dodge
3+3+2+1+2+1Defend Ally (1)
4+4+3+1+3+2Defensive Reflexes
5+5+3+2+3+2Damage Reduction 3/-, Mobile Defense
6+6+4+2+4+2Defend Ally (2), Improved Uncanny Dodge
7+7+4+2+4+3Defensive Block
8+8+5+3+5+3-
9+9+5+3+5+3Defend Ally (3)
10+10+6+3+6+4Damage Reduction 6/-, Greater Mobile Defense

AC Bonus: A Dwarven Defender gets a Dodge bonus to AC based on his level.  See table for details.  This bonus is lost whenever a Dwarven Defender would be denied his Dex bonus to AC.

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: Dwarven Defenders are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with all armor (not including exotic armor), and with all shields (not including exotic shields).

Defensive Stance:Uncanny Dodge: Starting at 2nd level, a Dwarven Defender retains his Dex bonus to AC, regardless of being caught flat-footed.  He still loses his Dex bonus if he is immobilized.
If the Dwarven Defender has Uncanny Dodge from another class, he instead gains Improved Uncanny Dodge (see below).

Defend Ally: Starting at 3rd level, a Dwarven Defender can grant an ally a +4 dodge bonus to AC.  The ally must be adjacent to the Dwarven Defender, and only one ally may be affected at once.  This ability only functions while the defender is in a defensive stance.
At 6th level, 2 allies may be affected at once.
At 9th level, 3 allies may be affected at once.

Defensive Reflexes: Starting at 4th level, a Dwarven Defender improves his ability to attack targets that provoke him.  He may make an additional attack of opportunity for every 2 levels of Dwarven Defender he posesses (for example, a Fighter 7/DD 4 without Combat Reflexes could make 3 opportunity attacks in a single round).  This ability does not stack with Combat Reflexes; use the greater value.  This ability only functions in a defensive stance.

Damage Reduction: At level 5, a Dwarven Defender gains damage reduction 3/-.  This improves to 6/- at level 10.

Mobile Defense: At level 5, a Dwarven Defender may take a 5' step while in a defensive stance.

Improved Uncanny Dodge: At 6th level, a Dwarven Defender can no longer be flanked, except by a rogue 4 levels higher.

Defensive Block: At 7th level, any creature that provokes an AoO by moving through a Dwarven Defender's threatened space is subject to this ability.  If the Defender hits with an AoO, the targeted creature must stop in the square it is currently occupying.  If the creature has actions remaining, it may resume movement (though it may provoke additional AoOs based on position).  This ability only functions in a defensive stance.

Greater Mobile Defense: At 10th level, a Dwarven Defender may move up to his base speed while in a defensive stance.  He cannot run or charge, nor make any other movement besides walking (jumping, tumbling, climbing, etc.).  He may take the Withdraw action normally, if he chooses.

These changes, I feel, bring the DD back up to the power level of the updated Pathfinder PRCs.  However, I'd love to hear your input.

EDIT: Added image, just because.  Also gave Defensive Block a level early - otherwise level 7 was dead, save for BAB increase.  At least 8th level also increases all your saves.

[/spoiler]
« Last Edit: September 06, 2009, 05:05:11 AM by Sommunist »

Sinfire Titan

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5697
  • You've got one round to give a rat's ass.
    • Email
Re: [Pathfinder] Updating prestige classes for use with Pathfinder.
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2009, 05:13:11 AM »
Something I noticed while reading the new Pathfinder PHB is that a few of the standard SRD classes haven't been updated.  This kinda sucks, so I figure I'd take a stab at it.

Dwarven Defender
[spoiler]
Hit Die: d12

Requirements
Race: Dwarf
Alignment: Any lawful
BAB: +7
Feats: Combat Expertise, Endurance, Toughness
Dodge was kind of a weird feat, given this class doesn't move all that much.  Expertise makes more sense.  The other requirements were OK.

So this class still requires 2 non-Fighter bonus feats to even qualify? That was the biggest problem: two of the three feats couldn't be selected through Fighter levels alone. Also, level 7 is a Dead Level for many classes. Lower the BAB requirement to 6.

If anything, the class should require more defense-oriented feats, like Combat Reflexes (to make sure things trying to move past you take a beating for trying).

Quote
Class Skills: Craft (Int), Perception (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis)
Skill Points: 2 + Int
Crappy skill list, but with Pathfinder's rework of class skills it's not terrible.

What would you do if the DD has an Int score above 13? Kinda sucks when you don't have enough class skills worth mentioning. At least put Tumble in there, IIRC Pathfinder allows you to counter-tumble people.

Quote
AC Bonus: A Dwarven Defender gets a Dodge bonus to AC based on his level.  See table for details.  This bonus is lost whenever a Dwarven Defender would be denied his Dex bonus to AC.

Let me put this simply: +4 for the cost of 10 levels is too small. I can get +10 off of 2 levels of Swordsage. Untyped, always active, and works in light armor.

Change it to letting them use either their Con or Str to AC in place of Dex (and make sure it doesn't get capped by their Max Dex Modifier). Then you have a class feature worth taking.


Quote
Defensive Stance:

Even worse than the original, actually. The duration is nice, but the fact that he can't even move (the original at least let you take 5ft steps) means the trademark'ed call still applies:

"Look, a Dwarven Defender! Everyone, walk briskly!"

Let them move up to half their speed each round. Hell, full speed, they're Dwarves after all. It kinda sucks when your entire PrC is ruined by a wide-open field. Or a 40sqft room.

Quote
Defend Ally: Starting at 3rd level, a Dwarven Defender can grant an ally a +4 dodge bonus to AC.  The ally must be adjacent to the Dwarven Defender, and only one ally may be affected at once.
At 6th level, 2 allies may be affected at once.
At 9th level, 3 allies may be affected at once.

Bonus is too small. Have it be the DD's Con modifier. Or have him act as mobile Soft Cover for his allies, but not his enemies.

Quote
Defensive Reflexes: Starting at 4th level, a Dwarven Defender improves his ability to attack targets that provoke him.  He may make an additional attack of opportunity for every 2 levels of Dwarven Defender he posesses (for example, a Fighter 7/DD 4 without Combat Reflexes could make 3 opportunity attacks in a single round).  This ability does not stack with Combat Reflexes; use the greater value.

Have it stack with Combat Expertise, and change the Endurance requirement to Combat Expertise. Not gonna break the game.

Quote
Damage Reduction: At level 5, a Dwarven Defender gains damage reduction 3/-.  This improves to 6/- at level 10.

Not worth it. The values are too small. Enemies are dealing 40+ damage/attack at 17th level, when the DD would normally get the greater version. His HP isn't going to stand up to that. Have it be 10/Adamantine and 15/Adamantine. That's actually respectable DR.

Quote
Mobile Defense: At level 5, a Dwarven Defender may take a 5' step while in a defensive stance.

I should not have to spend 5 levels in a PrC to not suck when using that PrC's primary class feature.

Improved Uncanny Dodge: At 6th level, a Dwarven Defender can no longer be flanked, except by a rogue 4 levels higher.

Quote
Defensive Block: At 8th level, any creature that provokes an AoO by moving through a Dwarven Defender's threatened space is subject to this ability.  If the Defender hits with an AoO, the targeted creature must stop in the square it is currently occupying.  If the creature has actions remaining, it may resume movement (though it may provoke additional AoOs based on position).

So its Stand Still, but worse?

Quote
Greater Mobile Defense: At 10th level, a Dwarven Defender may move up to his base speed while in a defensive stance.  He cannot run or charge, nor make any other movement besides walking (jumping, tumbling, climbing, etc.).  He may take the Withdraw action normally, if he chooses.

As above. This should be available from the start. The Deepstone Sentinel can end a Stone Dragon stance by taking a Move action, and then re-enter that same stance after moving at no penalty. You class has to Fatigue himself every time he does this, and can only maintain the stance for a few minutes/day (whereas the Sentinel can be in his stance effectively 24/7).




In all, your changes are minor, and actually worse in some places. It fails to address the primary problem the DD has until the 10th level, at which point the class becomes playable. You may not realize it, but only having a 20ft move speed actually does hurt a melee character. It turns a 60ft charge into a Move action and then Charge next round. Melee has a hard time keeping things inside its melee reach, and the DD can't do his job (tanking) if everyone just has to take 15ft extra movement to avoid ever even stepping into his melee reach.

Also, don't use Pathfinder melee characters. They're actually worse than the original, a fact that has been discussed in several other threads.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

Sommunist

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 39
Re: [Pathfinder] Updating prestige classes for use with Pathfinder.
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2009, 05:31:57 AM »
@ Sinfire (too much to quote):

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/dwarvenDefender.htm

Dwarven Defenders could NEVER move while in a stance, except after 8th level.  However, I agree with you on that.  How about this:
At level 1, you can 5' step.
At level 5, you can take a single move.
At level 10, you can move normally, including running and charging.

About the dodge bonus: Con to AC as an insight bonus work better?

About Defend Ally: Con mod works for me as well.

About Defensive Reflexes: Stacking with combat reflexes is fine, I guess.

About DR: 3/- and 6/- is the most DR I've ever seen offered to a class, even in pathfinder.  Technically it's BETTER than adamantine because nothing short of a god bitch-slapping you will overcome it.

About Defensive Block: What makes this worse than Stand Still?  IIRC it's identical.  If not, just give them Stand Still as a bonus feat.

Also, don't use Pathfinder melee characters. They're actually worse than the original, a fact that has been discussed in several other threads.

Every single melee class in Pathfinder is better than their 3.5 counterparts, hands down.  Some FEATS got gimped, though.