Author Topic: Planning for the Future: Marshall  (Read 3529 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

snakeman830

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3494
  • BG's resident furry min/maxxer
Planning for the Future: Marshall
« on: September 03, 2009, 12:19:16 AM »
I'm about to start a 3.5 game .  I have the first few levels planned out, but as I always do, I look to the future for the character.

The game is starting at level 1.  We haven't rolled for abilities yet (although I already know my highest is going into Charisma).  I am going to be running a Silverbrow Human Marshall (other than one Warforged Totemist, I have no idea what the rest of the party will be like).  In this campaign, we are not allowed to multiclass except for prestige classes.  In other words, only one base class per character.  All books are allowed, though.

My build currently looks like this:

Auras:

(Minor)
Motivate Dexterity

Feats:
Skill Focus (Diplomacy) (Marshall bonus)
Dreadful Wrath
Intimidating Strike

At second level, I plan on picking up Motivate Urgency as my major aura (speed boosting one).  At level 3, I plan on going Human Paragon and picking up Draconic Aura (Vigor) as my level 3 feat.  After level 2 of Human Paragon, I haven't decided to take Human Paragon 3 right away or postpone it to a later point as I plan on going Mythic Exemplar.  My level 12 feat will be Double Draconic Aura with either my HP2 bonus feat, or level 6 or 9 feats going toward Draconic Aura (Senses).  Somewhere during Mythic Exemplar, I plan on picking up Motivate Charisma as a Minor Aura (might as well buff my Diplomacy and Intimidate well)

I'm hoping to make things easier for my party members while making them more difficult for foes.  The buffing is easy, but the debuffs are more difficult.  Best I've found so far is Intimidating Strike, since it keys off of a skill I plan on keeping high anyway and gives no penalty to me on a failure.  It also sets up well for future fear effects or anything requiring a save.  Is there something better?  Also, is there a debuff that isn't fear-based available to non-casters?

Any reccomendations for the future?  Or even for the present?
« Last Edit: September 07, 2009, 12:09:26 AM by snakeman830 »
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

Negative Zero

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1532
    • Email
Re: Planning for the Future: Marshall
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2009, 02:25:07 AM »
Long list of Auras, from Surreal's Lists of Stuff. I figure something in here may be of use.

[spoiler]Auras - or other area effects
Bard
Rogue 10, 13, 16, or 19/20, class variant, Complete Champion, "Friend's Evation", evasion for all adjacent allies
Paladin 1 - aura of good, courage at level 3
Paladin 3, half-orc substitution level, Races of Destiny - aura of awe
Paladin 3, elf substitution level, Races of the Wild - aura of freedom
Blackguard 1, ecl 7, DMG - aura of evil
Blackguard 3, ecl 9, DMG - aura of despair 10'
Dragon Shaman, PHB2 - draconic auras, improves with level
Knight of the Chalice 8, ecl 16, Complete Warrior, 20' immune to fear and enchantment effects from evil outsiders
Knight Protector 1, ecl 6, Complete Warrior, 10', +4 vs fear
Ravager 2, ecl 7, Complete Warrior, 10', fear, 20' at 5th, 30' at 8th
Marshall, Miniatures Handbook - various, improves with level
Courage, domain, Complete Warrior - aura of courage
Divine Mind, Complete Psionic - various
Enhanced Beneficience, feat, Complete Psionic, +5' psychic aura
Warpriest 5, ecl 10, Complete Divine, 20', fear aura, limited use, see text
Warpriest 10, ecl 15, Complete Divine - implacable foe 100' (keep fighting until -20 HP)
Ravager 2, ecl 7, Complete Warrior - aura of fear, range increases over levels
Tattoed Monk 1 (Falcon Tattoo), ecl 6, Complete Warrior - 10', similar to aura of courage
Divine Crusader 1, ecl 8, Complete Divine - alignment aura
Holy Liberator 1, ecl 6, Complete Divine - aura of good, resolve at level 3
Radiant Servant of Pelor 3, ecl 9, Complete Divine, 10', +2 Will
Sacred Exorcist 5, ecl 12, Complete Divine, 20', consecrate
Evil Devotion, domain feat, Complete Champion, damage reduction, 30', see text
Good Devotion, domain feat, Complete Champion, damage reduction, 30', see text
Protection Devotion, domain feat, Complete Champion, AC aura, 30', see text
Mythic Examplar (Reikhardt) 10, ecl 14, Complete Champion, 60', Cha to either Fort or will saves, also gain limited use DR
Inquisitor of the Drowning Goddess 1, ecl ?, FR: Underdark, 20', fear aura 1/day
Squire of Legend 3, ecl 7, Complete Champion, can extend an ally's aura by 50% once/day
Cold Comfort, warlock invocation, ecl 6, Complete Mage - warm or cool aura
Eldritch Disciple 1, ecl 6, Complete Mage, magic circle against evil, see text
Enlightened Spirit 1, ecl 6, Complete Mage - aura of courage, aura of menace
Storm Disciple 1, ecl 6, Complete Psionic - shocking aura - see text

Outcast Champion 1, ecl 6, Races of Destiny, aura of confidence
Dread Necromancer 5, Heroes of Horror - 5' fear aura
Corrupt Avenger 5, ecl 11, Heroes of Horror, 30' frightful fury, improves at level 9
Death Delver 5, ecl 10, Heroes of Horror - fear aura 1/day
Dread Witch 5, ecl ??, Heroes of Horror - fear aura
Purifier of the Hallowed Doctrine 1, ecl 6, Heroes of Horror - aura of purity
Commander auras, Heroes of Battle - see chapter
Dread Commando 1, ecl 6, 30', initiative boost = class level
Legendary Leader 5, ecl 11, Heroes of Battle - commander aura
Death's Chosen 3, ecl 8, Libris Mortis, unnatural aura, 30'
Master of Radiance 1, ecl 6, Libris Mortis - radian aura - increases caster level
Harper Paragon 1, ecl 6, Player's Guide to Faerun - aura of good
Incarnate 1, Magic of Incarnum - depends on alignment
Soulborn 9 (lawful good Dwarn substitution level), Magic of Incarnum - varies with alignment, only affects Dwarves, 30'
Incandescent Champion 8, ecl 14, Magic of Incarnum - damages foes
Lucky Dice, soulmeld, Magic of Incarnum - variable effects, 30'
Chupoclops, vestige, ecl 12, Tome of Magic - despair
Focalor, vestige, ecl 5, Tome of Magic - sadness
Fatemaker 4, ecl 9, Planar Handbook - confidence
Dragonfire Mask, soulmeld, Dragon Magic - fear
Diamond Dragon 10, ecl 15, Dragon Magic, frightful presence, 60', see text
Dragon Lord 1, ecl 7, Dragon Magic - draconic auras, improves with level
Singer of Concordance 1 and up, ecl 6, Races of the Dragon, various effects, mostly defensive, see text
Frightful Crest, draconic graft, Races of the Dragon - fear
Dragonslayer 1, ecl 6, Draconomicon, aura of courage
Brand of Nine Hells (Mammon), feat, ecl?, Fiendish Codex II, aura of pity, 30', see text
Devil's Aura, feat, ecl 6, Fiendish Codex II, aura of fear 10', limited use, see text
Hellbreaker 1, ecl 6, Fiendish Codex II, inhibits telepathy and divination spells, 20', inhibits conjuration at level 7, see text
Soulguard 8, ecl 14, Fiendish Codex II, allies within 20' get +2 on saves vs evil outsider spells and abilities
Celestial Mystic 10, ecl 17, Book of Exalted Deeds, fast healing 2 to all within 10'
Chaotician 3, ecl 7, Planar Handbook, "babble" aura impedes all sound
Demonwreaker 4, ecl 9, Expedition to the Demonweb Pits, 30', allies weapons become good and cold iron
Eye of Lloth 1, ecl ?, Drow of the Underdark, 20' zone of truth


stacks with...
Triadic Knight, ecl 6, Champions of Valor - aura of good

Special Mention
Extra Aura, feat, Complete Psionic, generate psychic aura based on mantle
Dilate Aura, feat, Fiendish Codex II, double range of aura once per encounter
Draconic Aura, feat, Dragon Magic, gain a draconic aura
Double Draconic Aura, feat, Dragon magic, project two draconic auras simultaneously
Mythic Examplar (Reikhardt) 3, 5, 7, 9/10, ecl 7, Complete Champion, increases bonuses from certain auras, see text
Squire of Legend 3 (Reikhardt), ecl 7, Complete Champion, increase an ally's aura range by 50%, see text
Inspiration, shield enhancement +1, Forge of War, doubles

beneficial aura range
Widen Supernatural Ability, feat, Tome of Magic, double range, limited use[/spoiler]

woodenbandman

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2188
    • Email
Re: Planning for the Future: Marshall
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2009, 12:21:08 PM »
I don't think you qualify for those feats, seeing as how your initiator level is 0, and you need an initiator level of 1 to select maneuvers and stances.

snakeman830

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3494
  • BG's resident furry min/maxxer
Re: Planning for the Future: Marshall
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2009, 01:23:02 PM »
Unfortunately, a vast majority of those auras are either A. already in my plans or B. unavailable without multiple base classes.  The Legendary Commander had caught my eye, but it does leave things up to the DM insofar as allowing Leadership or not.

There is no Initiator level requirement on those feats (in fact, Martial Study has no prerequisite at all).  Whether or not I can actually use them for 1st level or wether I have to wait until 2nd is something I'll leave up to the DM.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

Risada

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1827
  • Wearing this outfit in the name of SCIENCE!
    • Email
Re: Planning for the Future: Marshall
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2009, 01:31:46 PM »
Unfortunately, a vast majority of those auras are either A. already in my plans or B. unavailable without multiple base classes.  The Legendary Commander had caught my eye, but it does leave things up to the DM insofar as allowing Leadership or not.

There is no Initiator level requirement on those feats (in fact, Martial Study has no prerequisite at all).  Whether or not I can actually use them for 1st level or wether I have to wait until 2nd is something I'll leave up to the DM.

If you plan on using Marshall, try to pass Tempest_Stormwind's Sublime Marshall through your DM (but it maybe hard to find, considering WotC screwed their boards  :rollseyes)... it's basically what you're trying to do, except you spent no feats on maneuvers...

ninjarabbit

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1442
    • Email
Re: Planning for the Future: Marshall
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2009, 06:15:01 PM »
Here's a few feats I like for marshals:

Dreadful Wrath (PgtF): can only be taken at level 1 but it gives you a nice fear-based debuff for things you normally do in combat

Knowledge devotion (Complete champion): nice with motivate intellegence especially since marshals have all knowledge skills as class skills

skydragonknight

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3297
Re: Planning for the Future: Marshall
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2009, 07:40:32 PM »
Imperious Command also works.

And welcome to the BG boards, Snakeman.
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

snakeman830

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3494
  • BG's resident furry min/maxxer
Re: Planning for the Future: Marshall
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2009, 08:44:28 PM »
Hmm, Dreadful Wrath and Intimidating Strike give me a possibility of Frightening a foe at 1st level.  That sounds juicy enough to postpone Martial Study and Martial Stance.

Where is Imperious Command from again?
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

Shadowhunter

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1003
Re: Planning for the Future: Marshall
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2009, 08:50:19 PM »
Drow of the Underdark
[Spoiler]
Quote from: Runestar
the most effective optimization is the one you can actually get away with.  :smirk

Quote from: Vinom
(A group of nerds are called a murder because like crows we are anti-social, like shiny things, and often squack at each other over nothing for hours)

I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/quote]
[/spoiler]

Binder? You're Welcome

Zceryll makes Binders go from tier 3 to tier 2.
Cagemarrow is a Genius

Before giving the advice that build X would be better of with Fist of the Forest, take a long, good look at Primal Living. Twice.

snakeman830

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3494
  • BG's resident furry min/maxxer
Re: Planning for the Future: Marshall
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2009, 09:18:57 PM »
Looks like that would be nice when combined with the Never Outnumbered skill trick.

I wonder if it would work with Intimidating Strike or not?

Are there any debuffs that aren't fear effects and that I can use?  I know we will be coming across some foes that are immune to fear. (it's basically inevitable)
« Last Edit: September 03, 2009, 09:23:01 PM by snakeman830 »
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

Negative Zero

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1532
    • Email
Re: Planning for the Future: Marshall
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2009, 12:34:28 AM »
There are many non-fear debuffs, but few are available to non-casters, unless you count stuff like Trip, Disarm, and Grapple.

snakeman830

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3494
  • BG's resident furry min/maxxer
Re: Planning for the Future: Marshall
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2009, 07:35:49 PM »
Hmm, Dreadful Wrath looks like it will be lots of fun if I also get a Frightful Crest (RotD) later on.  Two Will saves forced (identical DC) and either one failed adds to fear, just by charging.  Too bad it looks like fear will be my only debuff. :rollseyes
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

skydragonknight

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3297
Re: Planning for the Future: Marshall
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2009, 03:15:48 PM »
Unfortunately, most debuffs come from class features, and you said multiclassing was not an option.
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

GawainBS

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1474
    • Email
Re: Planning for the Future: Marshall
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2009, 07:39:29 PM »
Is going Crusader instead of Marshall an option? It gives the same fluff, only more useful...

snakeman830

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3494
  • BG's resident furry min/maxxer
Re: Planning for the Future: Marshall
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2009, 11:23:47 PM »
Crusader is an option, but I think I will actually not be using them for a couple of reasons.

1. We already have a tank.  It sounds like the Warblade is instead going to be a Warforged (going Dragonborn) Totemist.  He ought to have plenty of hit points.

2. Marshall gives bigger buffs to the entire party and does better in the talking department (from what I've heard, which may or may not be true, this is going to be a combat-light game)

Still, I am keeping my options open, especially as I still don't know what the rest of the group will be like.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

skydragonknight

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3297
Re: Planning for the Future: Marshall
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2009, 11:32:24 PM »
More of a story game? Then all the more reason for Imperious Command. In combat of course it's great. But say you're out of combat, looking for information...well now you can do it Batman style. :D
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

GawainBS

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1474
    • Email
Re: Planning for the Future: Marshall
« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2009, 06:38:17 AM »
Crusader is an option, but I think I will actually not be using them for a couple of reasons.

1. We already have a tank.  It sounds like the Warblade is instead going to be a Warforged (going Dragonborn) Totemist.  He ought to have plenty of hit points.

2. Marshall gives bigger buffs to the entire party and does better in the talking department (from what I've heard, which may or may not be true, this is going to be a combat-light game)

Still, I am keeping my options open, especially as I still don't know what the rest of the group will be like.

"Tank" is an iffy term in D&D. Crusaders can also do more than take damage: they can dish it out as well.
White Raven has very good party buffs. I dare say that White Raven Tactics alone makes up for any buff the Marshall offers. Too bad you can't multiclass with Bard...

Brainpiercing

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1475
  • Thread Killer
    • Email
Re: Planning for the Future: Marshall
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2009, 07:42:47 AM »
Umm... look, with one base class available for a buffer/debuffer role, wouldn't you be better off with a Bard? Bards rock, if done right, and they can do the talking game plenty well.

You could either do a standard bard, (with WoC for added cheese), an Inspire Awe bard, which is quite nasty when combined with single enemy ultra-debuffs like Doomspeak (CoR, IIRC, but may be in Elder Evils? AFB atm).

And of course with a bard you'll be a full versatility sorceror at level 9 or 10 or so, with Sublime Chord.
IMHO that is all strictly superior to a weakly done base class such as marshall. If the major auras were better the marshall might be able to compete, but they suck, so...

GawainBS

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1474
    • Email
Re: Planning for the Future: Marshall
« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2009, 07:59:28 AM »
Umm... look, with one base class available for a buffer/debuffer role, wouldn't you be better off with a Bard? Bards rock, if done right, and they can do the talking game plenty well.

You could either do a standard bard, (with WoC for added cheese), an Inspire Awe bard, which is quite nasty when combined with single enemy ultra-debuffs like Doomspeak (CoR, IIRC, but may be in Elder Evils? AFB atm).

And of course with a bard you'll be a full versatility sorceror at level 9 or 10 or so, with Sublime Chord.
IMHO that is all strictly superior to a weakly done base class such as marshall. If the major auras were better the marshall might be able to compete, but they suck, so...

Seconded.

snakeman830

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3494
  • BG's resident furry min/maxxer
Re: Planning for the Future: Marshall
« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2009, 12:24:12 PM »
I've sent the Sublime Way Marshall to the DM for consideration (Wizards, you can't delete everything!).  Hopefully, that will come back with a positive, but for obvious reasons, I'm not counting on it.

I've found the proper avenues for Marshall to not suck (namely Human Paragon and Mythic Exemplar.  I only have to take 2 levels of Marshall, which aren't that bad) and that gets me to level 15.

Now, as for why not a bard, I have several reasons.

1. Does not fit the character concept, even if it does fit the mechanics (mostly).  Part of the concept is the guy motivating others with his extraordinary confidence and not magic.  You can call for re-fluffing all you want, but the mechanics clearly have the bard being magical.

2. Marshall provides a bigger bonus with his minor auras and to different things than I have seen IC get up to.  Max I've seen IC reach is a +12 bonus while at 20th level it's very likely I will have at least a +13 bonus on my minor auras.

3. Some of the minor auras (such as Motivate Dexterity) are useable by everyone.  Many times, casters don't care about the Inspire Courage bonus because either A, they aren't making attack rolls, B, they're always hitting anyway due to the attacks being touch attacks, or C, their spells don't benefit anyway.  The bonus against fear is the only one that everyone benefits from, and that's somewhat situational.  Since I have no idea what the party makeup will be at this point, I don't know how useful the various abilities will be.

In this case, the buffing isn't a problem.  It's doing something interesting once the auras are up.  Lacking the feats and BAB to really make a damage dealer, the next best thing is debuffs, most of the extraordinary ones being fear effects (which is a good set, but eventually we'll run into something they don't work on).
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.