Author Topic: Persistant Spell + Divine MetaMagic: Is it Worth it!?  (Read 6378 times)

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Ezekiel_NL

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Persistant Spell + Divine MetaMagic: Is it Worth it!?
« on: September 01, 2009, 09:19:57 AM »
Im creating a cleric for a new campaign (starts at level 5). It's gonna be the back up fighter of the party and I'm looking into the Persistant Spell Feat+DMM.

Getting persistant spell you have to spend 4 feats on it imo: Extend spell, Persistant spell, Divive Metamagic and Extra Turning. But still when choosing these feats you'll still have to cope with the +6 Level adjusment. Making a lvl 1 spell persistant, you have to spend 7 turn attempts. So in general you'll have 1 buff spell available for 24 hrs per day (if its not dispelled ???).

Is all this worth the 4 feats you have to choose?

Prime32

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Re: Persistant Spell + Divine MetaMagic: Is it Worth it!?
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2009, 09:46:43 AM »
Only if you have nightsticks (cheap magic items from MIC containing uses of turn undead).
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Ezekiel_NL

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Re: Persistant Spell + Divine MetaMagic: Is it Worth it!?
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2009, 09:51:15 AM »
MIC??

Prime32

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Re: Persistant Spell + Divine MetaMagic: Is it Worth it!?
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2009, 09:54:33 AM »
Magic Item Compendium
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Havok4

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Re: Persistant Spell + Divine MetaMagic: Is it Worth it!?
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2009, 10:24:11 AM »
Also a reliquary holy symbol is a good purchase as well which is in the MIC. But Night Sticks are actually in libris morits.

Alastar

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Re: Persistant Spell + Divine MetaMagic: Is it Worth it!?
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2009, 10:55:05 AM »
Choosing the undeath and planning domain (wee-ja is a good god for those) helps you take back some of the cost of those feats, by granting you extend spell and extra turning for free

Havok4

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Re: Persistant Spell + Divine MetaMagic: Is it Worth it!?
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2009, 11:06:45 AM »
Which allows a human cleric to persist spells from level one.

Ezekiel_NL

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Re: Persistant Spell + Divine MetaMagic: Is it Worth it!?
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2009, 11:54:36 AM »
Choosing the undeath and planning domain (wee-ja is a good god for those) helps you take back some of the cost of those feats, by granting you extend spell and extra turning for free


Yeah, I have read that. Although planning does fit into my character profile, undeath does not. And I certainly want things to "fit". My character is opposing evil and undeath in general.

The magical items are a good idea, but most likely banned by the DM!!!

Alastar

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Re: Persistant Spell + Divine MetaMagic: Is it Worth it!?
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2009, 01:23:50 PM »
flaws allowed?
Libris mortis aint allowed?  even if he limits you to ONE nightstick, it's still pretty good :)
just take planning then, it's good enough on it's own ! :)

AfterCrescent

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Re: Persistant Spell + Divine MetaMagic: Is it Worth it!?
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2009, 01:46:25 PM »
In short, yes, it's worth it.

Night sticks aren't even necessary, although they can be useful. Say you're a human cleric with a +2 Cha. You already have 5 turn attempts. There are items in the DMG that can grab you the other ones you need. Or a quick Cha boosting spell can get you what you need to persist that one spell. That's without Extra turning (which, since you don't need a lot of feats, usually, you can take many times).

Now if you're not human, flaws aren't allowed, and any item you may want/need will be banned, then obviously DMM Persist may not be the option for you. It also might not be want you want flavor-wise. DMM Quicken is much easier to get and more cost effective, too.
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Ezekiel_NL

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Re: Persistant Spell + Divine MetaMagic: Is it Worth it!?
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2009, 03:16:34 PM »
In short, yes, it's worth it.

Night sticks aren't even necessary, although they can be useful. Say you're a human cleric with a +2 Cha. You already have 5 turn attempts. There are items in the DMG that can grab you the other ones you need. Or a quick Cha boosting spell can get you what you need to persist that one spell. That's without Extra turning (which, since you don't need a lot of feats, usually, you can take many times).

Now if you're not human, flaws aren't allowed, and any item you may want/need will be banned, then obviously DMM Persist may not be the option for you. It also might not be want you want flavor-wise. DMM Quicken is much easier to get and more cost effective, too.

Thanks for the heads up. Your Cleric Handbook is very good, btw.

I was planning to play a Lawful Neutral Human, Inquisitor type. Good in casting spells and can hold his own in combat. I think im gonna take a level 1 dip in fighter (for weapon proficiencies and the feat), the rest would most likely be Cleric and Church Inquisitor. Haven't thought of taking the Extra Turning Feat multiple times, though. That could work and maybe worth the investment.

Im almost sure my DM will not allow to use UA, as this is his first time as a DM and wants to keep it a bit simple, rules wise. Core books, PHBII, all complete books and spell compendium are the books we can work from.


Korwin

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Re: Persistant Spell + Divine MetaMagic: Is it Worth it!?
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2009, 03:22:59 PM »
Argh, no no no.
No fighter level! Dont loose a caster level.
You dont need a Fighter feat (you have spells),
you dont need weapon prof. (you have spells).

If you really really want those proficiencies grab an PRC that gives them to you.

[edit]: An PRC where you dont loose an caster level.
[edit2]: Or can you use the Tome fighter? That one might be worth the lost caster level.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2009, 03:24:35 PM by Korwin »

BowenSilverclaw

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Re: Persistant Spell + Divine MetaMagic: Is it Worth it!?
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2009, 03:27:45 PM »
Argh, no no no.
No fighter level! Dont loose a caster level.
You dont need a Fighter feat (you have spells),
you dont need weapon prof. (you have spells).

If you really really want those proficiencies grab an PRC that gives them to you.

[edit]: An PRC where you dont loose an caster level.
[edit2]: Or can you use the Tome fighter? That one might be worth the lost caster level.

Or pick the War Domain...
Or play an Aasimar if LA-buyback is allowed...
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Ezekiel_NL

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Re: Persistant Spell + Divine MetaMagic: Is it Worth it!?
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2009, 03:32:49 PM »
Argh, no no no.
No fighter level! Dont loose a caster level.
You dont need a Fighter feat (you have spells),
you dont need weapon prof. (you have spells).

If you really really want those proficiencies grab an PRC that gives them to you.

[edit]: An PRC where you dont loose an caster level.
[edit2]: Or can you use the Tome fighter? That one might be worth the lost caster level.

Sorry whats a Tome Fighter?

Ezekiel_NL

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Re: Persistant Spell + Divine MetaMagic: Is it Worth it!?
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2009, 03:34:20 PM »


Or pick the War Domain...
Or play an Aasimar if LA-buyback is allowed...

[/quote]

Like I said, I have to do without UA. Only books as i wrote above

Korwin

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Re: Persistant Spell + Divine MetaMagic: Is it Worth it!?
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2009, 03:50:11 PM »
Like I said, I have to do without UA. Only books as i wrote above

Then Tome is out also.
btw. War Domain is core  ;)


From Tome of War
Quote from: FrankTrollman

[size=18]Fighter[/size]
"I've seen this kind of fire-breathing chicken-demon before. We're going to need more rope. Also a bigger cart."

The Fighter is a versatile combatant who is able to actively disrupt the activities of his enemies. Fighters represent plucky heroes and grizzled veterans, but they always appear to surmount impossible odds. Which means in retrospect that the odds weren't all that impossible. At least, not for someone with a Fighter's talents.

Playing a Fighter: Fighters are often handed to beginning players in order to help them learn the ropes. This is a cruel practice that dates back to when the Fighter was explicitly a weak class that players were forced to play to the (quit proximate) death if for whatever reason they didn't roll well enough on their stats to play a real character. The Fighter described here is not the hazing ritual of old, but it is a more complicated character than many others, being the non-magical equivalent to the Wizard. Beginning characters should probably be given a Barbarian, Conduit, or Rogue character to introduce them to the game mechanics of D&D.

A Fighter has an answer for virtually any circumstance and a great deal of adaptability and flexibility, and benefits greatly from being played by a player who actually knows how far a Roper's strands or a Beholder's rays reach. The Fighter character is archetypically a character who uses her opponent's limitations against them, and it really slows down play if the player needs to have those limitations explained during combat. As such, a full classed Fighter is recommended for experienced players of the game.

That being said, a level or two of Fighter can give some breadth and resilience to almost any martial build, and makes a good multiclassing dip even (sometimes especially) for inexperienced players.

Alignment: Every alignment has its share of Fighters, however more Fighters are of Lawful alignment than of Chaotic Alignment.

Races: Every humanoid race has warriors, but actual Fighters are rarer in societies that don't value logistics and planning. So while there are many Fighters among the Hobgoblins, Dwarves, and Fire Giants, a Fighter is rarely seen among the ranks of the Orcs, Gnomes, or Ogres.

Starting Gold: 6d6x10 gp (210 gold)

Starting Age: As Fighter.

Hit Die: d10
Class Skills: The Fighter's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Rope (Dex).
Skills/Level: 6 + Intelligence Bonus
BAB: Good (1/1), Saves: Fort: Good; Reflex: Good; Will: Good

Level, Benefit
1 Weapons Training, Combat Focus
2 Bonus Feat
3 Problem Solver, Pack Mule
4 Bonus Feat
5 Logistics Mastery, Active Assault
6 Bonus Feat
7 Forge Lore, Improved Delay
8 Bonus Feat
9 Foil Action
10 Bonus Feat
11 Lunging Attacks
12 Bonus Feat
13 Array of Stunts
14 Bonus Feat
15 Greater Combat Focus
16 Bonus Feat
17 Improved Foil Action
18 Bonus Feat
19 Intense Focus, Supreme Combat Focus
20 Bonus Feat

All of the following are Class Features of the Fighter class:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Fighters are proficient with all simple and Martial Weapons. Fighters are proficient with Light, Medium, and Heavy Armor and with Shields and Great Shields.

Weapons Training (Ex): Fighters train obsessively with armor and weapons of all kinds, and using a new weapon is easy and fun. By practicing with a weapon he is not proficient with for a day, a Fighter may permanently gain proficiency with that weapon by succeeding at an Intelligence check DC 10 (you may not take 10 on this check).

Combat Focus (Ex): A Fighter is at his best when the chips are down and everything is going to Baator in a handbasket. When the world is on fire, a Fighter keeps his head better than anyone. If the Fighter is in a situation that is stressful and/or dangerous enough that he would normally be unable to "take 10" on skill checks, he may spend a Swift Action to gain Combat Focus. A Fighter may end his Combat Focus at any time to reroll any die roll he makes, and if not used it ends on its own after a number of rounds equal to his Base Attack Bonus.

Problem Solver (Ex): A Fighter of 3rd level can draw upon his intense and diverse training to respond to almost any situation. As a Swift action, he may choose any [Combat] feat he meets the prerequisites for and use it for a number of rounds equal to his base attack bonus. This ability may be used once per hour.

Pack Mule (Ex): Fighters are used to long journeys with a heavy pack and the use of a wide variety of weaponry and equipment. A 3rd level Fighter suffers no penalties for carrying a medium load, and may retrieve stored items from his person without provoking an attack of opportunity.

Logistics Mastery (Ex): Fighters are excellent and efficient logisticians. When a Fighter reaches 5th level, he gains a bonus to his Command Rating equal to one third his Fighter Level.

Active Assault (Ex): A 5th level Fighter can flawlessly place himself where he is most needed in combat. He may take a 5 foot step as an immediate action. This is in addition to any other movement he takes during his turn, even another 5 foot step.

Forge Lore: A 7th level Fighter can produce magical weapons and equipment as if he had a Caster Level equal to his ranks in Craft.

Improved Delay (Ex): A Fighter of 7th level may delay his action in one round without compromising his Initiative in the next round. In addition, a Fighter may interrupt another action with his delayed action like it was a readied action (though he does not have to announce his intentions before hand).

Foil Action (Ex): A 9th level Fighter may attempt to monkeywrench any action an opponent is taking. The Fighter may throw sand into a beholder's eye, bat aside a key spell component, or strike a weapon hand with a thrown object, but the result is the same: the opponent's action is wasted, and any spell slots, limited ability uses, or the like used to power it are expended. A Fighter must be within 30 feet of his opponent to use this ability, and must hit with a touch attack or ranged touch attack. Using Foil Action is an Immediate action. A Fighter may not wait until an action is partially completed before deciding to attempt to foil the action, but must instead attempt to foil an action as it is declared. Note that this means that a Fighter may not foil a Full Attack (because it is not declared until after it has already begun), nor may he foil a move or charge action that began out of range.
At 17th level, Foil Action may be used at up to 60 feet.

Lunging Attacks (Ex): The battlefield is an extremely dangerous place, and 11th level Fighters are expected to hold off Elder Elementals, Hezrous, and Hamatulas. Fighters of this level may add 5 feet to the reach of any of their weapons.

Array of Stunts (Ex): A 13th level Fighter may take one extra Immediate Action between his turns without sacrificing a Swift action during his next turn.

Greater Combat Focus (Ex): At 15th level, a Fighter may voluntarily expend his Combat Focus as a non-action to suppress any status effect or ongoing spell effect on himself for his Base Attack Bonus in rounds.

Intense Focus (Ex): A 19th level Fighter may take an extra Swift Action each round (in addition to the extra Immediate Action he can take from Array of Stunts).

Supreme Combat Focus (Ex): A 19th level Fighter may expend his Combat Focus as a non-action to take 20 on any die roll. He must elect to use Supreme Combat Focus before rolling the die.

Its better formated in the orginal thread...

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Persistant Spell + Divine MetaMagic: Is it Worth it!?
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2009, 03:59:18 PM »
I agree that grabbing the War domain is a far better option than taking a fighter level, especially if you can use the reserve feat based on the war domain. I think it is called Holy Warrior, but I forget which book it is from. You get combat bonuses based on the highest level War domain spell you have prepared.
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BowenSilverclaw

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Re: Persistant Spell + Divine MetaMagic: Is it Worth it!?
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2009, 03:59:59 PM »
I agree that grabbing the War domain is a far better option than taking a fighter level, especially if you can use the reserve feat based on the war domain. I think it is called Holy Warrior, but I forget which book it is from. You get combat bonuses based on the highest level War domain spell you have prepared.
That would be in Complete Champion :)
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AfterCrescent

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Re: Persistant Spell + Divine MetaMagic: Is it Worth it!?
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2009, 04:18:40 PM »
Actually, since all completes are open, give up spontaneous curing for spontaneous war casting (PHB2) and take the reserve feat from CC, as long as you have a highest level spell available, you get the highest bonuses available to you. :)
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Ezekiel_NL

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Re: Persistant Spell + Divine MetaMagic: Is it Worth it!?
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2009, 04:28:32 PM »
Thanks guys... :clap

These are all excellent suggstions. I'll look into it.

There is also one thing I didn't mention:

I want to base the Inquisitor on the Imperial Inquisitor from Games Workshop WH40K, including the huge hammer. As far as I can see, the warhammer is just a bit too small. I also saw a maul in the Complete Warrior, but this requires a Exotic Weapon Feat as I also want to use a shield.... :rollseyes

Don't want to push it, but any suggestions would be greatly appreciated?