Author Topic: How much of a boost does Jade Phoenix Mage need?  (Read 3809 times)

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Endarire

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How much of a boost does Jade Phoenix Mage need?
« on: August 31, 2009, 04:50:54 PM »
Tome of Battle's Jade Phoenix Mage (p115) seems like the arcane version of the Ruby Knight Vindicator (p123); a class that progresses maneuvers and arcane spells.

I propose these JPM changes.[spoiler]-d12 HP.  It counteracts low HD from Wizard, etc.
-Add Diamond Mind to the available disciplines.
-Skill points are 4+INT per level.  Add Knowledge (any) and Spellcraft to the class skill list.
-Requires only 8 Concentration ranks.
-Requires only arcane spellcasting ability of any level, not level 2 or higher.
-Any alignment can become a JPM.
-Add a general stance known at JPM10.[/spoiler]
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Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

Amadi

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Re: How much of a boost does Jade Phoenix Mage need?
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2009, 05:07:28 PM »
I also suggest that Archmage gains 5 levels of arcane casting each level, because losing spell slots obviously sucks otherwise.

AfterCrescent

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Re: How much of a boost does Jade Phoenix Mage need?
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2009, 05:19:02 PM »
-d12 HP.  It counteracts low HD from Wizard, etc.
No.
-Add Diamond Mind to the available disciplines.
Sure.
-Skill points are 4+INT per level.  Add Knowledge (any) and Spellcraft to the class skill list.
No.
-Requires only 8 Concentration ranks.
Sure.
-Requires only arcane spellcasting ability of any level, not level 2 or higher.
No.
-Any alignment can become a JPM.
It's flavor reasons. Even if they're in the class, you can alter that, so leave it in unless you're making a different class. :shrug
-Add a general stance known at JPM10.
Eh, maybe. Not necessary, really.
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KellKheraptis

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Re: How much of a boost does Jade Phoenix Mage need?
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2009, 05:21:31 PM »
I also suggest that Archmage gains 5 levels of arcane casting each level, because losing spell slots obviously sucks otherwise.

Given that it already does progress spellcasting 5/5...you're thinking hierophant ;)
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bearsarebrown

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Re: How much of a boost does Jade Phoenix Mage need?
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2009, 06:03:49 PM »
Of all the classes that need fixed to be up to par with RNK, you pick JPM?

I understand that just because my grandma has cancer doesn't mean I ignore my sister with the flu, but still.

Endarire

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Re: How much of a boost does Jade Phoenix Mage need?
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2009, 06:23:33 PM »
RKV and JPM are most similar.  Deepstone Sentinel and the Stone Dragon discipline are mostly meh due to the ground-only limitation.

I'm convinced the printed JPM version is incomplete.  Note how the prereq skills aren't class skills, Concentration aside.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2009, 06:26:33 PM by Endarire »
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

sir_argenon

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Re: How much of a boost does Jade Phoenix Mage need?
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2009, 08:53:22 PM »
wow.. i cant understand trying to "fix" jpm.. it is insanely powerful as a gish prc. free quicken... free empower, 2 bonus stances in addition to the stance progression, 8/10 casting, full bab... and an ability that basically kicks everyone in a 20' radius on thier ass.. and completely heals you in every way, the process as its capstone. it really doesnt need any help at all.

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Re: How much of a boost does Jade Phoenix Mage need?
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2009, 09:02:40 PM »
- The current HPs seem fine to me.

- I'm also behind more choice for maneuvers (though I'd let the player replace the existing schools with others of his choice).

- I'm always in favor of more skill points so I admit to a bias here.

I like the JPM but I wouldn't say it's insanely powerful. It's inferior to the Abjurant Champion or the Swiftblade IMO.

- I don't see a problem with allowing entry with 1st level spells either - having JPMs heavier on the martial side could be interesting.
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Emy

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Re: How much of a boost does Jade Phoenix Mage need?
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2009, 10:00:51 PM »
 - Change the fluff so the number of Jade Pheonix Mages is not limited at exactly 13 forever.

Bozwevial

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Re: How much of a boost does Jade Phoenix Mage need?
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2009, 10:09:52 PM »
- Change the fluff so the number of Jade Pheonix Mages is not limited at exactly 13 forever.

Again, this is stuff you really don't need to change unless you're making a new class.

Aliment

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Re: How much of a boost does Jade Phoenix Mage need?
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2009, 10:11:48 PM »
-Add the class skills but since it is made for an Int focused class I don't see skills neccesary
-Lower Concentration is good
-Leave Arcane castin req
-Diamond Mind makes since
-d6 HD is fine.  Doesn't the RKV only get like d8?  I could see up to d8 but no higher.  You'll make the SS upset.

I think the JPM is a great PrC and would like to see a psionic and a warlock version.  (Aren't those floating around somewhere?)
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KellKheraptis

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Re: How much of a boost does Jade Phoenix Mage need?
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2009, 10:17:37 PM »
-Add the class skills but since it is made for an Int focused class I don't see skills neccesary
-Lower Concentration is good
-Leave Arcane castin req
-Diamond Mind makes since
-d6 HD is fine.  Doesn't the RKV only get like d8?  I could see up to d8 but no higher.  You'll make the SS upset.

I think the JPM is a great PrC and would like to see a psionic and a warlock version.  (Aren't those floating around somewhere?)

Both could be done with almost no change whatsoever to the class.  +1 to Manifesting/level or Invocations/level where it's listed (so 8/10), and other than that, everything else is it's own independent mechanic.  Empowered Strike and Quickening Strike can be reworded for powers in the psionic version, with the note you don't lose focus using them, and reword them for SLA's for the 'lock.  Actually, there's an idea.  An Arcane Swordsage Hellfire Jadelock :D
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Akalsaris

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Re: How much of a boost does Jade Phoenix Mage need?
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2009, 11:24:46 PM »
I think it should get more class skills, but otherwise the PrC is pretty solid in my opinion.  Low base HPs, but that's a problem with any gish, and something to offset the higher offensive power of blasting or higher defenses from buffing.

I actually like the fluff about there being only 13 PrC members, btw.

skydragonknight

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Re: How much of a boost does Jade Phoenix Mage need?
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2009, 12:11:57 AM »
Any class that advances arcane spellcasting at more than half it's levels should have Knowledge(Arcana) and Spellcraft as class skills. Period.
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KellKheraptis

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Re: How much of a boost does Jade Phoenix Mage need?
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2009, 12:30:57 AM »
Any class that advances arcane spellcasting at more than half it's levels should have Knowledge(Arcana) and Spellcraft as class skills. Period.

Wait...they aren't?  And for the record, any class that has freaking "Mage" in it's name should have Knowledge (Arcana) and Spellcraft as class skills.
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