Author Topic: D&D Core Classes (2) [Rebalancing 3.5]  (Read 28277 times)

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RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Core Classes (2) [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #160 on: May 15, 2009, 09:30:04 AM »
None of the last two posts address the point...
What is the "ideal" generalist wizard.... if not "the batman".
You cannot treat a disease by fixing its symptoms.
I was adressing Kuro's post with mine.  As for addressing the generalist, I think Veekie summed up my thoughts nicely.


I'd favor versatility at the cost of power for the generalist wizard here. They can do everything, only not as strongly as the specialised classes(say, maybe 2-3 levels behind, or an action behind, in combat, so as to leave them relevant, but not overpowering), or as often(spells, nuff said).

A polymorphed wizard gish should have even odds of trouncing a melee specialist if hes using both melee and magic(possibly using multiple rounds to buff), and slightly lower odds if hes going fang vs blade alone. Similar matters apply to skills, though understandably, that's harder to ensure, considering the way skills work, a caster/skillmonkey will have a higher peak performance than a pure skillmonkey.
+1
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Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
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Midnight_v

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Re: D&D Core Classes (2) [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #161 on: May 15, 2009, 04:02:47 PM »
Quote
My thing is I don't actually KNOW what else the generalist should be? I don't think "spells as versatility" is a bad thing. I"m not the one who proposed that it was.

Spells as versatility isn't bad (that's their whole point: they directly address specific problems). Spells as "I get to do everything, haha, sucks to be you" IS.
ha ha I get to do everything...
Hmm...
Okay we're going to run into problems with this over and over again, I see....
There is a dichotomy there that I can't put my finger on but, it seems. It is desirable for the generalist wizard to do many things and cast utility spells, but you dont' want him to cast utility spells that ... I don't know "Step on anyones toes" so to speak... but...
Quote
I'd favor versatility at the cost of power for the generalist wizard here. They can do everything, only not as strongly as the specialised classes(say, maybe 2-3 levels behind, or an action behind, in combat, so as to leave them relevant, but not overpowering), or as often(spells, nuff said).

Hmm... I want to move away from talk of polymorph.
Okay we have to stop using the old defintion of polymorph, now. We have a new polymorph which "should work" much better. There. Fixed.

Lets talk about.... magic vs skills because thats where we are right now.
I think a generalist wizard will be more or less as equal to a rogue in bypassing traps and opening doors, if he's dedicated spell slots to do it.
A lot of D&D has been predicated on the LotRs/Krynn party. . . which isn't particularly the case when we have 56(?) classes. 
Fighter, Wizard, Rogue,Cleric and their associtated roles are not so ideal anymore.
I think there maybe whole parties of wizards or fighters rolling about.
A generalist wizard doing everything "rogue like" is inevitable if that what the party needs. Futher they're going to be better at it because they can cast detect magic and say "This is actually magic'd up somewhat I'll dispell it and see if its trapped"

So... okay. . . what solutions to generalists are there?  I dont' think it matters what level you make the spell(S) "Melt door.spell" obviates the need for lockpicks (if only a few times a day) even if you make it a higher level spell then the Rogue is only forced upon the party till the wiz can cast "Meltdoor" then (s)he can get back to being batman.
....
Lastly ... you know what intitially got me going W...T...F... about the treatment of magic in this project? "Grease" please put grease back on the first level. (da hell man. )

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RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Core Classes (2) [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #162 on: May 15, 2009, 04:10:12 PM »
Lastly ... you know what intitially got me going W...T...F... about the treatment of magic in this project? "Grease" please put grease back on the first level. (da hell man. )
That might work just fine.  The modified spell list was created to give specalists a leg up by making generalists wait a bit longer to get certain key spells.  If we can come up with some other way to actually make specialists better at their school than generalists, then we can do away with that new list entirely.

My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

veekie

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Re: D&D Core Classes (2) [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #163 on: May 15, 2009, 04:51:12 PM »
Well, I used Polymorph mainly because it's a fairly good benchmark 'become a tank' spell. Even in it's fixed form it should do as much. A generalist wizard could be a rogue with more flexibility, but arrives later to that point, at more effort, the reason is because hes not 'just' a rogue, but also a multitude of other classes at the same time. His role is literally Batman, at the cost of being less effective at everything than a specialist, in combat, this works out to be usually a round spent deploying buffs(until Quicken starts screwing with action economy), out of combat, it's the level of resources, active 'rogue' abilities taking more effort than the rogue's(due to spell slot), but being equally effective(similar success rate, no Knock busting a door more effectively than any rogue)

However, passive abilities like threat detection COULD last longer, if you put in a moderate duration(10 minutes/lvl? 1m/lvl?) 'search buff', invisibility, etc. A specialist might be better at this though, diviners/illusionist/enchanters(and of course the all encompassing conjuration/transmutation) are thematically nice rogue-likes, each being fairly good at an aspect of roguelyness.
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Kuroimaken

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Re: D&D Core Classes (2) [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #164 on: May 15, 2009, 05:12:13 PM »
Okay, here's a thought.

This is how I define Batman: he's a man with intense martial training, plenty of pretty toys that help him overcome nearly every situation (like James Bond on steroids), and lots of willpower. He cannot, however, solve every single problem by himself; he simply doesn't have the 'oomph' he needs to do so. His resources are limited and should not be squandered.

Having said that, while the Wizard CAN do everything, he can't do it all at once, all day long. Granted that at the higher levels what he does that replaces a skillmonkey only robs him of his lowest spell slots (Knock, Dispel, Detect 'X thing that screws party over' etc.) but by then the Rogue's utility as a skillmonkey has already lessened. Locked doors and traps can be really big challenges for low-level adventurers, but at, say, level 12, the Wizard just says "I DD out of the spike pitfall".

Having streamlined the Wizard's bag of tricks into something a bit more focused, I think he's fine as is. But only playtesting would tell.
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Sinfire Titan

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Re: D&D Core Classes (2) [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #165 on: August 16, 2009, 01:43:28 AM »
Barbarian: The 4E version does a solid job, as I've expressed a dislike for the Pathfinder version. A cross between that and the Warblade (recovery mechanic and a variation on the class features) would do wonders.

Druid: Split into two classes. I'm working on a Lycanthrope-inspired Totemist in my free time (in addition to everything else), so that can cover Wild Shape. The spellcasting part should be identical in design to the Wiz/Sor (low HD, Poor BAB, poor Fort and Ref saves, 2+Int modifier skills). The individual spells need to be modified (a nightmare on it's own).

Cleric: Cloistered variant is forced. Poor HD and Poor BAB should be something common to all full casters, not just Sor/Wiz. A majority of the Personal range spells can be transfered to the Paladin's list. All spells need to be reworked (again, nightmare).

Sorcerer: Beguiler/Dread Necromancer/Warmage all replicate the Sorcerer's abilities, and the flavor can be transfered between the classes easily. Combining those three and making additional ones for the other options (Abjuration/Divination should be one class, Transmutation should be it's own, and Conjuration has enough support to be it's own class). Spells are the major offender here, so again a revamp is needed.

Wizard: Spells need to be fixed, and the Familiar needs to be somewhat fixed/nerfed.

Vanican casters in generla: I feel that true Vanican casting should be reserved for classes like the Bard, Paladin, Hexblade, and others, and that full casters need an entirely new mechanic. Those classes show that Vanican magic can be made to work, but it needs extreme limitations on it.

Bard: Fix Bardic Music so it doesn't take 6 skills just to use. Fix some major offender spells (Celerity, Glibness, a bunch of others).

Ranger: I feel this class should be given a group of variants. Version 1 would be the Sublime Variant that tempest Stormwind gave us all (I'm working on finishing it). Version 2 should be a Duskblade-esqe caster. Version 3, if we decide to keep Wild Shape at all, should be the Wild Shape variant. Two of the three should have the Scout's Skirmish ability, while the Wild Shape needs a mechanic of it's own. Favored Enemy should be dropped. The Scout is going to need an overhaul, though a fix to the action economy and the way combat works would be enough to fix it almost entirely.

Why? The Sublime variant has been compared to a Tier 3 class often enough to be Tier 3 itself (the base chassis is the Warblade, after all). The Wild Shape variant is Tier 3 by default. The Duskblade is somewhere between Tier 4 and Tier 3. Making the class into three options would give us enough flexibility to work with, while at the same time ensuring that the class is up to par. Balancing the three options would be all that remains.

Fighter: And the endless cycle begins. I've pointed out the major flaws many times now, but if I need to repeat myself I will. The thing is, so many fixes are focused on the bonus feats that they overlook actually fixing the feats in the first place. I've seen people subsume bonus feats into the class itself (a bad idea), I've seen minor statistical boosts (the majority of all fixes, none of which fix anything other than minor numbers). This is going to need time, but we need to make sure we are all clear on the major problems.


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Soda

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Re: D&D Core Classes (2) [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #166 on: August 16, 2009, 02:02:44 AM »
Fighter: And the endless cycle begins. I've pointed out the major flaws many times now, but if I need to repeat myself I will. The thing is, so many fixes are focused on the bonus feats that they overlook actually fixing the feats in the first place. I've seen people subsume bonus feats into the class itself (a bad idea), I've seen minor statistical boosts (the majority of all fixes, none of which fix anything other than minor numbers). This is going to need time, but we need to make sure we are all clear on the major problems.
Have you seen the current fix? I reread it the other day, and I think it does a great job.

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Re: D&D Core Classes (2) [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #167 on: August 16, 2009, 02:26:59 AM »
Have you seen the current fix? I reread it the other day, and I think it does a great job.

It rubs me the wrong way due to formating. Give me a chance to retype it myself, and then I'll give you a good answer.


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Midnight_v

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Re: D&D Core Classes (2) [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #168 on: August 17, 2009, 10:59:17 AM »
I got in a huge fight with OW4 about that fighter fix... he pm'd me like 100 times. I think it works and that that it does suffer from formatting/editing errors. I get the idea of what its supposed to be doing, but he kept ranting about it being able to use wands and use the  the extra actions to attack.
That needs to be cleaned up.
I was tempted to fix skills to where No cross class umd allowed, or fuck you no wands if you're not a caster.

Still... I find myself thinking those are some hellishly drastic changes. I think I would like to keep the idea of the Iconic 4 and spread out from there.
Fix: Fighter. Cleric. Wizard. Rogue... and everything else should be balanceable once the base ideas are covered. Thats a microcosm but I hope the idea gets across.
I think that one some level the cleric is suppose to still be wearing full plate and wielding a mace. Casting spells  (whatever wizards dont' cast) and dealing with undead... it'd be nice if they had combat healing.
I never like the cloisterd idea, I just didn't have a better one at the time and didn't want to fight that fight.
though, I'd totally willing to admit maybe the ideas just haven't been far reaching enough.  I wonder...
 
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Sinfire Titan

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Re: D&D Core Classes (2) [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #169 on: August 17, 2009, 12:01:41 PM »
I think the major problems with UMD is that scrolls, wands, and staves give characters access to abilities that are far above their level too easily. How much effort does it take a character to get 50 4th level spell slots? A ton of it. How much does a scroll of a 9th level spell cost? Not much depending on the spell.

Either UMD needs to be limited or those items should not be able to reproduce such powerful abilities. IMO, Wands and Scrolls should have somewhat unique effects while Staves should function like Runestaves or have a different mechanic (perhaps something that would be useful for Gishes?).


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Kuroimaken

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Re: D&D Core Classes (2) [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #170 on: August 17, 2009, 03:27:12 PM »
UMD has always been a thorn in the side of any DM worth his salt. Because it's so damn easy to pump the skill up to ungodly levels, it's one of THE most easily abusable skills in the whole book. The easiest fix for this would probably be something along these lines: in order to use a wand/scroll/whatever, you have to meet the minimum caster level for the spell in question in addition to making the check. Casters get to use their full HD. Anyone else uses half their HD.

That way, you limit noncasters to 5th-level spells at best. It's rather drastic, I know, but it's better and easier to balance than changing UMD around.
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Midnight_v

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Re: D&D Core Classes (2) [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #171 on: August 17, 2009, 08:59:51 PM »
UMD has always been a thorn in the side of any DM worth his salt. Because it's so damn easy to pump the skill up to ungodly levels, it's one of THE most easily abusable skills in the whole book. The easiest fix for this would probably be something along these lines: in order to use a wand/scroll/whatever, you have to meet the minimum caster level for the spell in question in addition to making the check. Casters get to use their full HD. Anyone else uses half their HD.

That way, you limit noncasters to 5th-level spells at best. It's rather drastic, I know, but it's better and easier to balance than changing UMD around.
I like it. Use your caster level good. I'd write it in such a way that someone with a level in wizard and 4 levels fighter could use practiced spellcaster to use wands still. I dont' find that too abusive with the rule you've but in.
I'm not saying we should nuke the wand wielder option 100% just make it more reasonable.
I find your solution largely reasonable.
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Kuroimaken

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Re: D&D Core Classes (2) [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #172 on: August 17, 2009, 11:38:27 PM »
UMD has always been a thorn in the side of any DM worth his salt. Because it's so damn easy to pump the skill up to ungodly levels, it's one of THE most easily abusable skills in the whole book. The easiest fix for this would probably be something along these lines: in order to use a wand/scroll/whatever, you have to meet the minimum caster level for the spell in question in addition to making the check. Casters get to use their full HD. Anyone else uses half their HD.

That way, you limit noncasters to 5th-level spells at best. It's rather drastic, I know, but it's better and easier to balance than changing UMD around.
I like it. Use your caster level good. I'd write it in such a way that someone with a level in wizard and 4 levels fighter could use practiced spellcaster to use wands still. I dont' find that too abusive with the rule you've but in.
I'm not saying we should nuke the wand wielder option 100% just make it more reasonable.
I find your solution largely reasonable.

 :blush

I just figured that since UMD is easy to boost, that changing the DCs around would be impractical. So changing the way wands/magic items work would be preferrable.

I could see even a guy with no levels of wizard taking practiced spellcaster for wand use under that rule. It'd be a particularly worthwhile investment of the feat.
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For proof, look here:

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[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

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Sinfire Titan

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Re: D&D Core Classes (2) [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #173 on: August 18, 2009, 01:48:36 AM »
I agree that Wand Wielder characters should be viable, but I don't think we should leave the Wands unmodified. I'll cover more on this tomorrow morning on the Equipment thread. This is bleeding through a little.


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PhaedrusXY

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Re: D&D Core Classes (2) [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #174 on: September 16, 2009, 02:04:47 PM »
Sorry... I just started looking at this and haven't read through the whole thread to see if this was addressed... but did you actually mean for the barbarian to regain his temporary hit points every round while raging? Because that's what it says:
Quote
Rage (Temporary Hit Points): While raging, the barbarian gains a number of temporary hit points equal to double his class level.  These temporary hit points overlap with other temporary hit points and do not stack.  For example, a 3rd level barbarian would gain 6 temporary hit points per round, but the total would never increase above 6.

At 9th level, the barbarian gains a number of temporary hit points equal to three times his class level per round.  This increases to four times his class level at 18th level.
The way that's written, it sounds like the 3rd level barbarian gets 6 THP that refresh every round while he's raging. Is that what was intended?
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bkdubs123

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Re: D&D Core Classes (2) [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #175 on: September 16, 2009, 02:49:38 PM »
I believe the idea was to produce something like DR but even better. Although, you may be right to think that's a lot of temp hp.

RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Core Classes (2) [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #176 on: September 16, 2009, 03:01:20 PM »
Yes, that's how it's intended, although strictly speaking, it's worse than fast healing, and has mixed results when compared to DR.  It can do better than DR for any given single hit, but it only works for so many HP per round.

And do remember that temp HP overlap and don't stack, so if you don't "use" them for any given round, they're "lost".

Realistically, does it break the game for the supposed toughest class in the game to prevent 2HP of damage per round?  Even given 80 per round at 20th level, true threats either hit much harder than that, or they don't care about your HP in the first place.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
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Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
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I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

bkdubs123

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Re: D&D Core Classes (2) [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #177 on: September 16, 2009, 03:08:46 PM »
Yep, when you explain it I agree with the mechanic as is. Useful and different.

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Re: D&D Core Classes (2) [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #178 on: September 16, 2009, 11:13:55 PM »
Nah, it's fine. I was just checking if that's what you meant. :P
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]