Author Topic: Dragonborn+Necropolitan=Level 1 Tank from Hell?  (Read 8352 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

KellKheraptis

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2668
  • What's the matter? I thought you had me...
    • Email
Dragonborn+Necropolitan=Level 1 Tank from Hell?
« on: August 27, 2009, 12:18:26 AM »
There is nothing disqualifying a non-evil sentient (Int 3+) Necropolitan from becoming a Dragonborn.  As a living creature, a Dragonborn has a Con score, however the Necropolitan doesn't seem to really lose anything otherwise, remaining undead in all other ways, along with it's immunities, as it's type is unchanged.  Furthermore it would still qualify for that Dragon feat to add Cha (or was it Int) to hp, along with the d12's.  Has this been done/contemplated before?
BG's Resident Black Hatter
The Mango List Reborn!
My Warmage Trickery (coming soon!)
My PrC Pally Trickery (coming soon!)
The D&D Archive
-Work in progress!

Sinfire Titan

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5697
  • You've got one round to give a rat's ass.
    • Email
Re: Dragonborn+Necropolitan=Level 1 Tank from Hell?
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2009, 12:21:33 AM »
I believe there's a clause about  Dragonborns needing to be living, and undead are not classified as living creatures.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

KellKheraptis

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2668
  • What's the matter? I thought you had me...
    • Email
Re: Dragonborn+Necropolitan=Level 1 Tank from Hell?
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2009, 12:28:25 AM »
Quote from: Dragonborn Template
Prerequisites: In order to be accepted as a suitable candidate, the supplicant must be non-evil and have an Intelligence score of at least 3.

From the Dragonborn online resource at wizards.  If there's additional information available, that might disqualify it, but I don't see one thing in that disallowing a non-living being, but it most definitely DOES spit out a living Dragonborn.  Let me know if there's more in RoD :)
BG's Resident Black Hatter
The Mango List Reborn!
My Warmage Trickery (coming soon!)
My PrC Pally Trickery (coming soon!)
The D&D Archive
-Work in progress!

SorO_Lost

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2355
  • I'll kill you before you're born.
Re: Dragonborn+Necropolitan=Level 1 Tank from Hell?
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2009, 01:07:53 AM »
There is nothing disqualifying a non-evil sentient (Int 3+) Necropolitan from becoming a Dragonborn.  As a living creature, a Dragonborn has a Con score, however the Necropolitan doesn't seem to really lose anything otherwise, remaining undead in all other ways, along with it's immunities, as it's type is unchanged.  Furthermore it would still qualify for that Dragon feat to add Cha (or was it Int) to hp, along with the d12's.  Has this been done/contemplated before?
Necropolitan is not a race, it's a template. You'll still lose your race's stuff as normal. Also the undead type explicitly states you do not have a con score rendering any bonuses or con changes worthless as long as you are undead. Finally, the rite has you reborn and turns you into a dragonborn creature (which is notably a living creature) suggesting you come out alive though it never says that.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

woodenbandman

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2188
    • Email
Re: Dragonborn+Necropolitan=Level 1 Tank from Hell?
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2009, 01:36:37 AM »
Do it in reverse then. Be a level 1 dragonborn and then go necropolitan. Doesn't really accomplish all that much though.

JaronK

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4039
Re: Dragonborn+Necropolitan=Level 1 Tank from Hell?
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2009, 01:37:23 AM »
Also, you can't afford the change at level 1 anyway.

A Dragonborn Water Orc Crusader is a really strong level 1 tank though... +4 Str and Con, -2 everything else, really hard to kill.

JaronK

KellKheraptis

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2668
  • What's the matter? I thought you had me...
    • Email
Re: Dragonborn+Necropolitan=Level 1 Tank from Hell?
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2009, 01:50:18 AM »
There is nothing disqualifying a non-evil sentient (Int 3+) Necropolitan from becoming a Dragonborn.  As a living creature, a Dragonborn has a Con score, however the Necropolitan doesn't seem to really lose anything otherwise, remaining undead in all other ways, along with it's immunities, as it's type is unchanged.  Furthermore it would still qualify for that Dragon feat to add Cha (or was it Int) to hp, along with the d12's.  Has this been done/contemplated before?
Necropolitan is not a race, it's a template. You'll still lose your race's stuff as normal. Also the undead type explicitly states you do not have a con score rendering any bonuses or con changes worthless as long as you are undead. Finally, the rite has you reborn and turns you into a dragonborn creature (which is notably a living creature) suggesting you come out alive though it never says that.


This all hinges upon whether or not a Dragonborn is 100% spelled out somewhere to be living without explicitly being restricted to living creatures only.  So far, I can't find anything disallowing it, meaning it defaults to standard template stacking.  The mechanics of Dragonborn would mean all you'd lose is lack of a Con score, assuming that part of it can be confirmed, and you wouldn't lose your immunities, and most notably the d12 HD.

Lost, your post basically reiterated what I had already said, while skirting around whether or not the two are explicitly mutually exclusive.  If they are, it should have it spelled out somewhere in the template text.  If it doesn't, default stacking remains in effect, allowing the mini-dracolich :D
BG's Resident Black Hatter
The Mango List Reborn!
My Warmage Trickery (coming soon!)
My PrC Pally Trickery (coming soon!)
The D&D Archive
-Work in progress!

Emy

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 489
Re: Dragonborn+Necropolitan=Level 1 Tank from Hell?
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2009, 02:06:26 AM »
One of the big problems with dragonborn -- and we're looking at the consequences of this now -- is that it's a template, and it's presented as a race.

For example:

Quote from: Races of the Dragon, Dragonborn Racial Traits
* Humanoid (dragonblood): Dragonborn are humanoids with the dragonblood subtype and any other subtypes they had before undergoing the rite of rebirth. For all effects related to race, a dragonborn is considered a dragon and a member of her original race.

Thanks to the Mechanics of Rebirth sidebar, it seems pretty obvious that this is not necessarily correct for a nonhumanoid dragonborn.

Also, I don't see any rules that say dragonborn are always living creatures, so I don't think a human that becomes necropolitan, then later becomes dragonborn would have a Con score. You might be able to make an argument out of the age category table, but as long as you're undead you don't have Con.

KellKheraptis

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2668
  • What's the matter? I thought you had me...
    • Email
Re: Dragonborn+Necropolitan=Level 1 Tank from Hell?
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2009, 02:12:14 AM »
That quote may well have answered the question though.  Both a Dragon type and a Humanoid type are alive, must breathe, eat, drink, and sleep, per the SRD.  Alive = Con score.  It's extrapolation in the extreme, I know, but I feel there's a case for it.  Also, what are the rules for stacking?  Does it default to the most recent template?
BG's Resident Black Hatter
The Mango List Reborn!
My Warmage Trickery (coming soon!)
My PrC Pally Trickery (coming soon!)
The D&D Archive
-Work in progress!

Negative Zero

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1532
    • Email
Re: Dragonborn+Necropolitan=Level 1 Tank from Hell?
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2009, 02:21:47 AM »
That quote may well have answered the question though.  Both a Dragon type and a Humanoid type are alive, must breathe, eat, drink, and sleep, per the SRD.  Alive = Con score.  It's extrapolation in the extreme, I know, but I feel there's a case for it.  Also, what are the rules for stacking?  Does it default to the most recent template?

I wouldn't agree that breathing, eating, etc. are effects. I think that 'effects related to race', it means stuff like getting the +1 caster level on Wings of Flurry.

Sinfire Titan

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5697
  • You've got one round to give a rat's ass.
    • Email
Re: Dragonborn+Necropolitan=Level 1 Tank from Hell?
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2009, 02:22:20 AM »
That quote may well have answered the question though.  Both a Dragon type and a Humanoid type are alive, must breathe, eat, drink, and sleep, per the SRD.  Alive = Con score.  It's extrapolation in the extreme, I know, but I feel there's a case for it.  Also, what are the rules for stacking?  Does it default to the most recent template?

Check Savage Species. Technically, it's the most recent matter on Template Stacking. A creature with the Undead type wouldn't change type upon gaining another template.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

bkdubs123

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2724
    • Email
Re: Dragonborn+Necropolitan=Level 1 Tank from Hell?
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2009, 02:52:16 AM »
The pertinent text is on pg. 10, of Races of the Dragon, in the Mechanics of Rebirth sidebar.

Quote from: Races of the Dragon
Type, Subtype, and Race: You retain your original type and subtypes, gaining the dragonblood subtype. You still count as a member of your original race for the purpose of any effect or prerequisite that depends on race.

So, you ARE still Undead, and therefore you still lack a Constitution score. In fact, I don't see a damn thing that makes any reference toward the resulting Dragonborn being alive by default, or "becoming alive" after the transformation is over. Yes, humanoids are normally alive, as are dragons, but Dracoliches are Undead Dragon type creatures, and aren't alive. Vampires are Undead (Augmented Humanoid) type (subtype) creatures and aren't alive. So you become an Undead creature with the Humanoid and Dragonblood subtypes. Easy as pie, no?

KellKheraptis

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2668
  • What's the matter? I thought you had me...
    • Email
Re: Dragonborn+Necropolitan=Level 1 Tank from Hell?
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2009, 03:05:56 AM »
This begs the question then of how to retain undead status (i.e. being eligible for spellstitching) while also being alive.  Would shroud of undeath work for this, assuming a means of making it last the duration of the spellstitching?  Or best left for backstory, more like?
BG's Resident Black Hatter
The Mango List Reborn!
My Warmage Trickery (coming soon!)
My PrC Pally Trickery (coming soon!)
The D&D Archive
-Work in progress!

bkdubs123

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2724
    • Email
Re: Dragonborn+Necropolitan=Level 1 Tank from Hell?
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2009, 03:10:07 AM »
This begs the question then of how to retain undead status (i.e. being eligible for spellstitching) while also being alive.  Would shroud of undeath work for this, assuming a means of making it last the duration of the spellstitching?  Or best left for backstory, more like?

Wait, why does this beg that question? And would Shroud of Undead work for what exactly?

Negative Zero

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1532
    • Email
Re: Dragonborn+Necropolitan=Level 1 Tank from Hell?
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2009, 03:33:59 AM »
This begs the question then of how to retain undead status (i.e. being eligible for spellstitching) while also being alive.  Would shroud of undeath work for this, assuming a means of making it last the duration of the spellstitching?  Or best left for backstory, more like?

The string 'liv' does not occur in that part of the chapter except to describe that Dragonborn creatures tend to live a long time. There's nothing stopping you from being entirely undead. The word 'alive' never comes up.

KellKheraptis

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2668
  • What's the matter? I thought you had me...
    • Email
Re: Dragonborn+Necropolitan=Level 1 Tank from Hell?
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2009, 03:54:55 AM »
Ultimate motivation was to allow for spellstitching an Eldritch Disciple whilst still being able to use Hellfire Warlock for damage boost.  Now you have context, and why the initial post would have been sexy for that purpose.
BG's Resident Black Hatter
The Mango List Reborn!
My Warmage Trickery (coming soon!)
My PrC Pally Trickery (coming soon!)
The D&D Archive
-Work in progress!

bkdubs123

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2724
    • Email
Re: Dragonborn+Necropolitan=Level 1 Tank from Hell?
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2009, 04:20:53 AM »
Ultimate motivation was to allow for spellstitching an Eldritch Disciple whilst still being able to use Hellfire Warlock for damage boost.  Now you have context, and why the initial post would have been sexy for that purpose.

Ah... I see. Well, Shroud of Undeath would not work since you don't actually gain the Undead type, and neither would the frigging 8th level Veil of Undeath spell, for the same reason.

The_Mad_Linguist

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8780
  • Simulated Thing
Re: Dragonborn+Necropolitan=Level 1 Tank from Hell?
« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2009, 04:55:10 AM »
That quote may well have answered the question though.  Both a Dragon type and a Humanoid type are alive, must breathe, eat, drink, and sleep, per the SRD.  Alive = Con score.  It's extrapolation in the extreme, I know, but I feel there's a case for it.  Also, what are the rules for stacking?  Does it default to the most recent template?

Check Savage Species. Technically, it's the most recent matter on Template Stacking. A creature with the Undead type wouldn't change type upon gaining another template.
The new DMG/MM is the most recent matter on Template Stacking.

And, yeah, the minimum level you can be and have necropolitan applied is two.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2009, 05:01:02 AM by The_Mad_Linguist »
Linguist, Mad, Unique, none of these things am I
My custom class: The Priest of the Unseen Host
Planetouched Handbook
Want to improve your character?  Then die.

Brainpiercing

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1475
  • Thread Killer
    • Email
Re: Dragonborn+Necropolitan=Level 1 Tank from Hell?
« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2009, 06:45:39 AM »
Ultimate motivation was to allow for spellstitching an Eldritch Disciple whilst still being able to use Hellfire Warlock for damage boost.  Now you have context, and why the initial post would have been sexy for that purpose.

Ah... I see. Well, Shroud of Undeath would not work since you don't actually gain the Undead type, and neither would the frigging 8th level Veil of Undeath spell, for the same reason.

Shapechange would qualify you for any number of things. Likely as not you wouldn't be able to afford being spellstitched earlier, anyways. Now you just have to persist it.

A possible build would have to incorporate Warlock(obviously),Ur-Priest,Eldritch Disciple,Contemplative (for Scalykind or Animal domain),(Unholy)Sacred Exorcist and Hellfire Warlock, plus you will likely need to dip one class with a strong Fort base save. Whether it would ever be playable from low level - I doubt it. I also don't have time to think it through, whether it could ever come together at all.

KellKheraptis

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2668
  • What's the matter? I thought you had me...
    • Email
Re: Dragonborn+Necropolitan=Level 1 Tank from Hell?
« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2009, 07:40:30 AM »
Ultimate motivation was to allow for spellstitching an Eldritch Disciple whilst still being able to use Hellfire Warlock for damage boost.  Now you have context, and why the initial post would have been sexy for that purpose.

Ah... I see. Well, Shroud of Undeath would not work since you don't actually gain the Undead type, and neither would the frigging 8th level Veil of Undeath spell, for the same reason.

Shapechange would qualify you for any number of things. Likely as not you wouldn't be able to afford being spellstitched earlier, anyways. Now you just have to persist it.

A possible build would have to incorporate Warlock(obviously),Ur-Priest,Eldritch Disciple,Contemplative (for Scalykind or Animal domain),(Unholy)Sacred Exorcist and Hellfire Warlock, plus you will likely need to dip one class with a strong Fort base save. Whether it would ever be playable from low level - I doubt it. I also don't have time to think it through, whether it could ever come together at all.

Even without spellstitching, the build I'm working with now (using that spiffy "newly found" unseelie fey template) is Warlock 5/Mindbender 1/Ur-Priest 2/Eldritch Disciple 9/Hellfire Warlock 3.

Gets 9th level spells, house-ruled access to Initiate of Mystra(l) as a follower of a dead non-evil god of magic (and Sword of the Arcane Order too, w00t for Cleric and Wizard spells!), 18th level Warlock goodies, and I got to throw Spellblast on the Eldritch Disciple as an option for a Gift of the Divine Patron ability.  Spellstitching my usual all day buffs would have just been icing on the 5 tier cake :P
BG's Resident Black Hatter
The Mango List Reborn!
My Warmage Trickery (coming soon!)
My PrC Pally Trickery (coming soon!)
The D&D Archive
-Work in progress!