Author Topic: Does Pouncing Make Maneuvers Suck?  (Read 4033 times)

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Brainpiercing

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Does Pouncing Make Maneuvers Suck?
« on: August 24, 2009, 10:43:01 AM »
I have a problem with ToB:

TOO many standard action strikes, too few full-attack options. I guess having more Full-attack strikes would be a bit over the top, but still, ONE level of Lion-Totem Barb invalidates entire lists of tactics that usually make initiators good.

Of course there are the obvious exceptions:
Sudden Leap + Battle Jump shenanigans, however, the wacky requirements of Battle Jump make those DM dependant. I am wary to do this.

Charge Maneuvers + Pouncing, obviously. These are quite good. But are they worth more than a dip into Warblade? Clearly THE best charge maneuver is Bounding Assault. You now have ALL the flexibility of a double move + a charge at the end. Quite nice, all in all, but it seems that that's the best you can get.

Most well-rounded dipping melee builds have the problem of never getting ninth level maneuvers. At least, mine have. So no Time Stands Still, and in any case, it's too late to matter much. Of course, if you get it, it sure rocks.

So what am I missing? How do I make maneuvers keep up with Pouncing? (And I DO understand that you can't always charge, but mostly when you can't, you can just full-attack, which is also almost always better than maneuvers.)

The main reason for my question: I have a pouncing melee char (the "BC charger") at Level 10 (almost 11), and at level 11 he'll have an Initiator level of 7, and have Bounding Assault, which is the main maneuver I still want. After that I have two options: Gish or more Warblade. And I can't for the life of me decide. The build is Goliath1/Crasher2/Warblade2/Crusader1/Lion Totem1/Warblade+1/Monk2/Warblade+1,  in that order. He'll have his 4th Warblade level at 11.The Goliath LA level doesn't count for IL, and I can't buy it back, but I did get 2+Con HP, one good save and 2+Int skills from it, so it's not all lost. I've got Martial Spirit, Stonefoot Stance, Thicket of Blades and Pearl of Black Doubt as stances.
I had one more level of Barb planned for Improved Trip (nice with Shocktrooper, not for native tripping), but I'm not sure yet whether I will take that.

What maneuvers could he take from then on to surpass what taking Conjurer1/Abjurant Champion5/JPM3 could get me? I'm talking about Abrupt Jaunt, Wraithstrike, a +9AC shield or even Luminous Armour, etc. These are all things that are quite compelling, and I'm having trouble finding maneuvers that are better. There is already another gish in the party, and I really don't want to tread on his turf, but it just seems better to do so, after all.

The maneuvers I have considered taking from here on out:

Covering Strike (although a possible retraining candidate. Protecting my teammates from AoOs seems rather situational.)
Disrupting Blow (this one is quite good)
Elder Mountain Hammer, I only have this  one because it's nice to ready a big-damage strike once in a while against a teleporting bad guy
Irresistable Mountain Strike, well, this one is ok, action loss is always good, even though it has a save
Crushing Vise, no moving without a save seems nice, as a means to stop beefy guys from going around. the trouble is, mostly it would be better to just beat them dead, anyway. AND I would be getting Stand Still, too.
War Leader's Charge... ho hum. It's a charge, it does more damage. It's nice, but not more than that.

Avalanche of Blades, now where talking, but, as was written somewhere on this or another forum, it might be a trap. Possibly nice without power attack, but if I can get only one more attack in than normal+haste then I'd rather power-attack.

Scything Blade, this also seems quite nice, as it's a one-more-attack on a full-attack, and that's always good.

Mithral Tornado and Adamantine Hurricane just don't work, read as written, because they don't work with reach weapons. No reach weapons = bad. For that same reason I'm not using Leap Attack. Damn "adjacent" terminology.

I've also got one more stance coming in, which could be a 7th level stance - if they existed, but will have to end up as a fourth level stance, once again. I also have no way of delaying it until 8th level maneuvers become available. So Stance of Alacrity is out, and I probably won't ever get it.

So, is there anything I have missed? Any combos I should be aware of? I'm really bad with combos. Please help me out. Assume I can use mostly anything by RAW, the DM is quite lenient.

woodenbandman

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Re: Does Pouncing Make Maneuvers Suck?
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2009, 01:36:31 PM »
Well, for starters, you can't always charge. Maybe you're in rubble. Maybe you're entangled or slowed. Maybe you are surrounded. Yeah, charging is the best way to get stupid damage, but there are other ways as well. And maneuvers are good for situations when you can't charge, which is a lot of the time. Plus, you have to consider: If you're power attacking at a standstill, say, for 5, is an additional attack at a total -10, and some more at even larger penalties, worth trading for, say, +6d6 on an attack or whatever?

Tonymitsu

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Re: Does Pouncing Make Maneuvers Suck?
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2009, 02:05:42 PM »
If you haven't already looked it over, the Stormguard Warrior tactical feat has some noteworthy options.

While it doesn't work for your build, Channel the Storm combined with Combat Reflexes and, say, Robilar's Gambit.  Every time they swing at you they provoke an AoO... which you don't take.  On your next round you gain a +4 to attack and damage to each of your attacks for every swing a particular foe took at you.

Combat Rhythm + Avalanche of Blades.  Swing at a foe, using touch attacks at -4 iterative, until you miss.  Those attacks do no damage but the next round you get 5 x the number of times you made contact to each damage roll for every hit of a full attack action.  EDIT:  since you have pounce, if they try to run you just chase them down and pummel them anyway, likely with even more extra damage from a charge maneuver.  Unfortunately the usual extra umph from that trick comes from using Time Stands Still to take two full attacks all of which get this benefit.

If you have Thicket of Blades, the Defensive Sweep feat compliments it nicely.  Basically you pounce a foe and he's screwed, since he'll be beginning his round in your threatened area.  If he moves at all he provokes an AoO from you.  If he doesn't move by the end of his turn he still provokes an AoO from you.  Trip them for trying to move away from you and get both AoO's.

Since you have Devoted Spirit maneuvers, the Law Bearer (if you're lawful), Tides of Chaos (chaotic) Radiant Charge (if you're good) and Doom Charge (if you're evil) seem like they'd be worthwhile.  For the lawful/chaotic ones you charge and get +8 to attack (plus normal charge bonus) and an extra 4d6.  Presumably this will apply to all attacks made after the charge.  The good/evil charges gives 6d6 damage DR 10/- until your next turn, but must strike a good/evil opponent.

EDIT:  The Short Haft feat takes care of the majority of reach problems.  As a swift action you switch between a reach weapon and an adjacent weapon.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2009, 02:09:11 PM by Tonymitsu »

Brainpiercing

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Re: Does Pouncing Make Maneuvers Suck?
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2009, 02:31:59 PM »
If you haven't already looked it over, the Stormguard Warrior tactical feat has some noteworthy options.

While it doesn't work for your build, Channel the Storm combined with Combat Reflexes and, say, Robilar's Gambit.  Every time they swing at you they provoke an AoO... which you don't take.  On your next round you gain a +4 to attack and damage to each of your attacks for every swing a particular foe took at you.
Oh yes, that could work. I have Robilar's on the list to get, somewhere, and I would have to think about how to get Ironheart Aura+Stormguard Warrior, but Ironheart is a Warblade bonus feat, and that just leaves one. I am also skeptical as to the survivability of a glass-cannon using Robilar's, but it's something to think about.

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Combat Rhythm + Avalanche of Blades.  Swing at a foe, using touch attacks at -4 iterative, until you miss.  Those attacks do no damage but the next round you get 5 x the number of times you made contact to each damage roll for every hit of a full attack action.  EDIT:  since you have pounce, if they try to run you just chase them down and pummel them anyway, likely with even more extra damage from a charge maneuver.  Unfortunately the usual extra umph from that trick comes from using Time Stands Still to take two full attacks all of which get this benefit.
Hmm, I think this is really only worthwhile if you are facing a really big opponent who won't be dead, anyway.
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If you have Thicket of Blades, the Defensive Sweep feat compliments it nicely.  Basically you pounce a foe and he's screwed, since he'll be beginning his round in your threatened area.  If he moves at all he provokes an AoO from you.  If he doesn't move by the end of his turn he still provokes an AoO from you.  Trip them for trying to move away from you and get both AoO's.
This is great, combined with Standstill rather than trip, since I don't have a trip weapon. Where is Defensive Sweep from?
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Since you have Devoted Spirit maneuvers, the Law Bearer (if you're lawful), Tides of Chaos (chaotic) Radiant Charge (if you're good) and Doom Charge (if you're evil) seem like they'd be worthwhile.  For the lawful/chaotic ones you charge and get +8 to attack (plus normal charge bonus) and an extra 4d6.  Presumably this will apply to all attacks made after the charge.  The good/evil charges gives 6d6 damage DR 10/- until your next turn, but must strike a good/evil opponent.

EDIT:  The Short Haft feat takes care of the majority of reach problems.  As a swift action you switch between a reach weapon and an adjacent weapon.
Unfortunately I only have really low level Devoted Spirit manuevers, or I'd take one of them. I don't feel like dipping MORE crusader, though. In the gish build I could consider one of these for late.

Well, for starters, you can't always charge. Maybe you're in rubble. Maybe you're entangled or slowed. Maybe you are surrounded. Yeah, charging is the best way to get stupid damage, but there are other ways as well. And maneuvers are good for situations when you can't charge, which is a lot of the time. Plus, you have to consider: If you're power attacking at a standstill, say, for 5, is an additional attack at a total -10, and some more at even larger penalties, worth trading for, say, +6d6 on an attack or whatever?
In my experience there have been only few times when I couldn't either charge or full-attack. YES, I have used strikes on those. Mostly Emerald Razor (which is another good ready-action for a guaranteed hit and full PA) in the past, and I have used the Hammers, too.

It just all doesn't seem to compare to Wraithstrike, though. :(

Anklebite

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Re: Does Pouncing Make Maneuvers Suck?
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2009, 02:41:38 PM »
try an avalache of blades wraithestrike with blood in the water, that'll hurt em (did somebody say "aptitude kukris?").
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Re: Does Pouncing Make Maneuvers Suck?
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2009, 02:43:47 PM »
Defensive Sweep is from PHB2. The downside is you need 15 BAB to get it - so full BAB at level 15, or if you drop one point somewhere (for the swordsage dip, say), you need to be 18.

I will say that pouncing for a full attack is often more useful than using most flat damage strike maneuvers. That said, there are a lot of other maneuvers that do other things - the fire damage boosts in desert wind, the debuffing and healing strikes and so on. A pouncing martial adept would want to load up on utility strikes (although the hardness/DR ignoring strikes from Stone Dragon are pretty handy in the right places too).

However, as woodenbandman pointed out, charging can be pretty hard to pull off, especially if your DM enforces charging rules, uses terrain and other obstacles, and/or your party isn't super tactical. I'm often prevented from pulling off a pounce for one of these reasons.

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Re: Does Pouncing Make Maneuvers Suck?
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2009, 03:11:06 PM »
I'll agree on charging alone deals more damage than pretty much any maneuver possible.
A Valorous Lance welded by a Leaping Spirited Heedless Charging Maniac will do something like 4d8+360(?)+(strmod*1.5)+enchantmentlevel
Pouch of course just makes things ridiculous. But that is just one of the many arguments that the ToB isn't game breaking.

What you will find is damage trade offs for other stuff, like being next to invincible save wise once per encounter (or more for warblades), the ability to end almost any spell with IHS, lockdowns, DR bypassing effects, and so on.
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Re: Does Pouncing Make Maneuvers Suck?
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2009, 03:22:08 PM »
It just all doesn't seem to compare to Wraithstrike, though. :(
No wonder everything seems weak, if you're comparing it to that overpowered POS. :P
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Mortis

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Re: Does Pouncing Make Maneuvers Suck?
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2009, 03:32:23 PM »
Would the White Raven X-Charge manoeuvres work with pounce? War Master's Charge, with pounce, could be truly obscene.

Anklebite, consider combining that with getting Lightning Mace and Weapon Affinity-ing it to be used with kukris. That sounds like a helluva lot of attacks to me. Dubious legality, but certainly win.

Endarire

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Re: Does Pouncing Make Maneuvers Suck?
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2009, 03:40:31 PM »
Many strikes don't just deal damage.  White Raven Strike also makes a foe flat-footed for a round.  White Raven Hammer automatically stuns them.  Swooping Dragon Strike may also stun.  Wolf Fang Strike lets you attack with 2 weapons as a standard action.  Feral Death Blow may outright kill something if it fails its save.

Many other maneuvers are utilitarian.  Moment of Perfect Mind, Iron Heart Surge, and White Raven Tactics are CO favorites.

Also, if a maneuver tells you to charge, pounce applies.
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Brainpiercing

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Re: Does Pouncing Make Maneuvers Suck?
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2009, 05:56:45 PM »
Many strikes don't just deal damage.  White Raven Strike also makes a foe flat-footed for a round.  White Raven Hammer automatically stuns them.  Swooping Dragon Strike may also stun.  Wolf Fang Strike lets you attack with 2 weapons as a standard action.  Feral Death Blow may outright kill something if it fails its save.

Many other maneuvers are utilitarian.  Moment of Perfect Mind, Iron Heart Surge, and White Raven Tactics are CO favorites.

Also, if a maneuver tells you to charge, pounce applies.
Yes, that's all nice. Except you don't need to steal actions or other stuff if they guy is dead. Which he could be, if you had full-attacked him instead.
Would the White Raven X-Charge manoeuvres work with pounce? War Master's Charge, with pounce, could be truly obscene.
Well, I've ruled for myself that I can get the bonus damage on the first attack. There is no raw to support this, AFAIK.
YES, charge maneuvers are good. See Bounding Assault. Rough ground? No problem. Lots of threatened areas? Sure, I'll double-move tumble - into their face.

But once I've gotten that, what level 5th-8th level maneuvers are better than Wraithstrike?

Tonymitsu

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Re: Does Pouncing Make Maneuvers Suck?
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2009, 10:35:12 PM »
Hmm, I think this is really only worthwhile if you are facing a really big opponent who won't be dead, anyway.
Very true, but that's what you use it for.  Essentially you are taking two rounds to kill something huge.  But if normally it would have taken you three rounds or more to kill it then this is a more efficient tactic.  I only mentioned it because it has a vulnerability to an opponent who figures out what you are doing and runs away from you, wasting your setup.  A pouncing character gets around this.

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It just all doesn't seem to compare to Wraithstrike, though. :(

lol, there's little that does.   ;)

Wraithstrike is, in my opinion, a game-breaking spell when persisted for a gish.  Especially considering the number of high CR challenges that are all natural armor and no dex/dodge.

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Yes, that's all nice. Except you don't need to steal actions or other stuff if they guy is dead. Which he could be, if you had full-attacked him instead.

Well yes but in the event that your full attack can't hit something to kill it (due to abnormally high AC for instance), the ability to make him suck until a caster can debuff him or someone else can kill him makes you not useless and/or a liability to your party.  I've always valued utility over one-trick combat beasts, no matter how insane that one trick might be.  A flat-footed opponent can't take attacks of opportunity, giving the ranged group members time to get away from an enemy with reach (simply have them all delay until you strike).  A stunned opponent drops whatever he is holding (like the caster he just grappled... nothing in the description of the maneuver says you can't whip out a dagger, enter the grapple and go to town, or do it unarmed.)

since you mentioned there's another gish in the party here's a dirty trick that might or might not make your DM cry.

Say in combat the initiative is you, the gish, and the enemy.
You pounce.  If it lives, the gish casts a Quickened Benign Transposition (5th level spell) to swap places with you, and then takes his full attack.  If it's still alive, next round you wait for the gish to do his round, pounce again, and then use your swift action for White Raven tactics to give the gish another turn.

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But once I've gotten that, what level 5th-8th level maneuvers are better than Wraithstrike?

Better?  Hardly anything.

Dancing Mongoose (Tiger Claw 5) and Raging Mongoose (Tiger Claw 8) might interest you.  Even if you don't dual wield, extra attacks are always good, and it's a swift action to initiate the maneuver so I'd say you could charge after you do so.

Quicksilver Motion lets you trade your swift action for another move action.  Follow someone around some corners or circle behind the enemies, THEN charge them.

Earthstrike Quake:  Pounce the middle of a group the first round, next round use this to knock everyone in a 20ft radius prone, then beat them all in the face with AoO's when they stand up.


PS:  Unfortunately, I just re-read Defensive Sweep and it says that the foe must start his turn adjacent to you for the feat to have an effect.  Maybe reach isn't everything after all?  ;)

Brainpiercing

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Re: Does Pouncing Make Maneuvers Suck?
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2009, 06:25:06 AM »
Ok, good, those are nice, and I am likely to miss these utitlity things.

Quicksilver motion should be nice to set up a flank. White Raven Strike would be nice if more people could profit from flat-footedness, but we don't have a rogue or sneak-attacker at all, nor a Iaijutsu-striker.

Dancing Mongoose... hmm, I think Raging Mongoose is nice. But it'll be hard to meet the prereqs considering I have no other Tiger Claw things. I used to think that stuff like Death from Above would be nice in combination with Dungeoncrasher, but it all crumbles once you can pounce. Swooping Dragon Strike would be nice, too. 10d6 is no slouch, if you roll lucky, and you can crash him into the ground, too. That's probably as good as pouncing without haste, if not better. Unfortunately it doesn't give a fixed DC to jump, which means I have to really look up the DC for jumping over potentially huge or larger enemies, and high-jumping has stiff DCs anyway. (YES, I know that skill checks can be boosted through the roof.) So I would have to adjust my progression. Now the downside is, by the time I have it, I would probably have yet one more attack, which would be sacrificed by using this maneuver. At piddly attack bonus, sure enough, but still...

Ok, I did it. I changed out my progression to end up with Raging Mongoose as capstone maneuver at Level 20 (Warblade 12). Raging Mongoose is nice because it will give me 4 attacks (including Haste) at my highest bonus, and then my iteratives, on a charge. That's nothing to sneeze at, and probably better than White Raven Hammer, especially considering that I can most probably stun on a Swooping Dragon Strike. The one downside is that I have no strike to ready against a Flyby attack to immediately stun. That would be nice, but only White Raven Hammer could do it, since the most likely target (dragons) will likely as not make any fort save DCs I can throw at them, normally. So I'll have to hope Standstill does the trick - I'll have to make sacrifices, I guess. I could still take the Hammer, since I've got three White Raven maneuvers, if I count WRT from an item.

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Wraithstrike is, in my opinion, a game-breaking spell when persisted for a gish.  Especially considering the number of high CR challenges that are all natural armor and no dex/dodge.
Yes, game-breaking when persisted. Luckily noone in our group can persist it :). You can turn that around though. In my epic group you either have it or you suck :).

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PS:  Unfortunately, I just re-read Defensive Sweep and it says that the foe must start his turn adjacent to you for the feat to have an effect.  Maybe reach isn't everything after all?  Wink

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Re: Does Pouncing Make Maneuvers Suck?
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2009, 09:42:39 AM »
Hehe, defensive sweep is more for the total combo package on a crusader tank. Thicket of Blades, Defensive Sweep, and Robilar's Gambit means:

Move 5' or more: AoO
Don't move: AoO
Attack PC: AoO

I think there may even be another taunting strike or something that results in AoOs if the guy hit with it attacks an ally of yours instead of you. Basically, AoO for everything the bad guy does. It helps break the action economy wide open - would you like three or four bonus attacks per round?

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Re: Does Pouncing Make Maneuvers Suck?
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2009, 11:54:24 AM »
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So what am I missing? How do I make maneuvers keep up with Pouncing?

You don't. You make pouncing situational and unreliable enough that it is more or less on par with maneuvers in terms of expected damage output.

The idea behind standard strike maneuvers is exactly that they are supposed to serve as a viable alternative to a full attack. While they do less damage, they are more reliable in the sense that you can move and still attack with it. Clearly, pouncing makes a mockery of this concept, so it is pouncing which should be reworked.

Also, I think that when the designers introduced the concept of pouncing, they probably expected that the typical player use it no more than once per encounter (in the 1st round to clear the distance), and not a mainstay tactic used every round.
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Re: Does Pouncing Make Maneuvers Suck?
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2009, 12:43:31 PM »

You don't. You make pouncing situational and unreliable enough that it is more or less on par with maneuvers in terms of expected damage output.

The idea behind standard strike maneuvers is exactly that they are supposed to serve as a viable alternative to a full attack. While they do less damage, they are more reliable in the sense that you can move and still attack with it. Clearly, pouncing makes a mockery of this concept, so it is pouncing which should be reworked.

Also, I think that when the designers introduced the concept of pouncing, they probably expected that the typical player use it no more than once per encounter (in the 1st round to clear the distance), and not a mainstay tactic used every round.

Ah, but it's a GMs job to make pouncing unreliable. And it all goes down the drain with maneuvers that let you do it basically no matter what the conditions. So in that respect maneuvers actually DO make pouncing better.

I would tend to agree that the designers thought in the manner you stated, but the deal clearly is: Complete Cheese was out by the time ToB came, right? They SHOULD have known better (in Complete Cheese, actually). Even the epic feat Dire Charge doesn't allow continuous pouncing, only in the first round of combat.

Runestar

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Re: Does Pouncing Make Maneuvers Suck?
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2009, 01:05:41 PM »
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They SHOULD have known better (in Complete Cheese, actually)

Yeah, pounce at 1st lv, available with a 1lv dip (and you even get rage throw in as a sweetener!). What were they thinking... :eh

I guess that past a certain stage, 3e simply got too bloated with rules for them to bother fixing, nor was it feasible to expect them to be able to account for all possible combinations of rules when designing new material.

So I suppose the onus is still on the DM to try and balance out pounce in some manner, even if it requires him speaking to the player on the sidelines and trying to work out a common understanding.  :)
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Re: Does Pouncing Make Maneuvers Suck?
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2009, 01:09:11 PM »
But you also have to consider that even though pounce is a very powerful melee option it is weak compared to spell casting.

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Re: Does Pouncing Make Maneuvers Suck?
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2009, 01:09:36 PM »
I'm pretty sure that Complete Champion was released after Tome of Battle.

As an aside, my DM has ruled that you can only pounce during rages if you use the Lion Barbarian ACF. I find it to be a very nice adaptation to the ability, which makes it far more balanced really, since you can only pounce for one combat a day without spending feats on extra rage.

As far as reliability goes, I'm definitely of the opinion that this is the key to keeping pouncing (and charging) under control. In a one-off session where we only had 3 people able to play, we were given 2 PCs to create, I made a pouncing, raging swift hunter barbarian TWF fighter and a dragonfire inspiration bard. Between the two of them, the damage output on any round where the dwarf was able to move 20' and pounce was ridiculous. But the DM quickly figured out counter-tactics. Not all monsters should use good countertactics all the time (since they don't know about your character necessarily), but as word spreads (you're famous at level 10, maybe?) and also just in-combat, the monsters notice that if they are 20' or more away from you with a clear line to charge, they're dead meat.

Good DMs also make use of battlefield control tactics just like good PCs. They even have the benefit of dictating most terrain, so don't necessarily need magic-users to create or alter the terrain.

The real problem with this balancing scenario, though, is it basically says: "This ability is VERY strong, but it's up to the DM to use these tools to keep it in check". That leads to DM stress in many cases (resentment that certain scenarios need to be modified in order to account for the one OP character).

Personally, that's why I like most maneuvers (including the ones that grant pounce or pounce-like abilities) and dislike pounce itself. The campaign I'm working on (for next year, though) will likely allow ToB but disallow pounce (as well as a lot of CCh PrCs and ACFs and Feats).

RobbyPants

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Re: Does Pouncing Make Maneuvers Suck?
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2009, 01:15:58 PM »
Also, I think that when the designers introduced the concept of pouncing, they probably expected that the typical player use it no more than once per encounter (in the 1st round to clear the distance), and not a mainstay tactic used every round.
Personally, I think the designers inteded pounce to be used in that you would get one attack with each of your attacks, not a full attack.  Take a look at core.  So far as I know, the only thing that gets it is various animals and similar creatures using natural weapons.  Now, in their case, a full attack would let them attack with each weapon, as natural attacks don't get iteratives.  If they had just worded it to work they way they want rather than use a half-ass approximation, than pounce would only be useful to TWF PCs.


I would tend to agree that the designers thought in the manner you stated, but the deal clearly is: Complete Cheese was out by the time ToB came, right? They SHOULD have known better (in Complete Cheese, actually).
No, actually.  Complete Champion came out in spring of 2007, but ToB came out in 2006.  So, at the time they made ToB, pouncing wasn't regularly obtainable by PCs; or at least, not with a 1-level dip.
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