Author Topic: What aspects are most important for a martial (non-casting) tank?  (Read 1360 times)

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Endarire

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Tanking in D&D 3.5
Tanking in D&D 3.5 isn't like in massively multiplayer games.  Dumb foes like rats and mindless undead will likely attack whatever's closest or whatever attacked them.  Smart foes need a very good reason to attack the beefy guy (you) instead of the squishy caster. 

In the NFL, the opposing team needs to get through your team's defense (melee guys) to reach the quarterback (casters).  Quarterbacks make important decisions that often affect the game's outcome.  Some QBs are glory hogs, trying to do everything themselves, and sometimes these are successful.  Typically, more successful QBs are team players that try to involve everyone on their team   Until foes can regularly teleport and dimension door or otherwise move very quickly, this is typically how things go.

At higher levels, merely standing there and looking tough won't cut it:  You need to get in your enemies' faces.  You need to be at least as mobile as they are and have at least as much reach.  You need high initiative, HP, AC (especially touch AC later on), and saves.  To keep up, you must eventually be able to fly and perhaps jaunt or teleport.

Ultimately, you must be a threat.  Be as mobile as you want.  If you can't stop foes from stopping your allies- such as by stunning your foes, immobilizing them, or cutting them to ribbons before they can act- you aren't doing your job as well as you could.

How can we optimize this?
Certainly, spells are one way, but I'd like to avoid spells cast by this character.  (Magic does enough already.)  Assume any spell cast by this character is level 2 or less.

What maneuvers, classes, class features, and such do you believe most important?  Assume we start at ECL1 with a 28 point buy and all first party material available, but no magazines.  Assume this tank has a functional and friendly Rogue, Cleric, and Wizard- 3 separate characters, not some hybrid- of equal ECL to protect.

In no particular order...

-AC: A low AC may invite more foes to target you, but a low touch AC especially means casters can have a field day with you.  Ray of stupidity?  Optimized orb of forceRay of clumsiness?  Beware!

HP: You must be able to take blow after blow.  Once your foes can teleport past you, merely standing there with long reach ain't enough.

Hit Negation: If I see my foe has mirror image or displacement or blur active, I'm much less inclined to aim for him.  If, however, you're this guy who's in my face and who I can't shake, I'm stuck attacking you or begging surrender or trying to flee.

-Initiative Boosters: You need not go as soon as the party's Wizard, but Improved Initiative, the Aggressive trait, and Moment of Alacrity go a long way toward reliably acting before the other side.

-Pounce.  You need mobility.  As a front-liner, if you can only attack something once after moving, you're at a significant disadvantage compared to a pouncer.

-Save Swap Maneuvers: Will and Fortitude especially.  Moment of Perfect Mind is level 1 for good reason, though non-casting tank implies a high Fortitude save.

-Uncanny Dodge: Flat-footed people die to sneak attacks more often.  Improved Uncanny Dodge is optional.
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

Emy

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Re: What aspects are most important for a martial (non-casting) tank?
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2009, 04:42:20 AM »
Mettle might be desirable.

Same with Evasion, especially the Divine Oracle version that works in heavy armor. However, Divine Oracle doesn't seem to compatible with being a melee brute, so your mileage may vary.

Akalsaris

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Re: What aspects are most important for a martial (non-casting) tank?
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2009, 05:58:25 AM »
Hmm...here's a tank build that tries to hit some of those at least...

The barbaric crusader
Dragonborn Water Orc Barbarian 2/Crusader 18
ACFs: trade fast movement for Pounce (CC), trade uncanny dodge for Improved Trip (UA), trade Rage for Whirling Frenzy (UA) <-- Effectively has no standard barbarian class features!

Stats:
Str: 20
Dex: 12
Con: 20
Int: 6
Wis: 08
Cha: 6

Feats:
1st class: Extra Rage
1st flaw: Power Attack
1st flaw:  Improved Initiative
2nd bonus: Improved Trip
3rd char: Animal Devotion (or Extra Granted Maneuver)
6th char: Combat Reflexes
9th char: Leap Attack
12th char: Robilar's Gambit
15th char: Defensive Sweep
18th char:

Leveling notes:
(1): Basically just your typical barbarian here - 3/day you can pump your str and AC up, and basically hit really hard with a greatsword or something. 
(2): Improved Trip gives you your main crowd control for the next 7 levels - make good use of it! 
(3): Animal Devotion gives 1/day Flight, or can add a strength boost or bite attack.  Very versatile. 
10th: Finally nabs the thicket of blades stance.
12th: Can generate more damage and AOO's from opponents hitting him.
15th: Hits opponents that ignore him!

AC: Heavy Armor and +2 AC from Whirling Frenzy gives a good AC and at least a 14 touch, which isn't too shabby for a tank.
HP: A 20 Con, 2d12, 18d10, and Improved Toughness means that this guy isn't going down easily.
Hit negation: Has Steely Resolve 25 from Crusader, which combined with temporary HP and healing can help negate hits.  Otherwise a Cloak of Displacement is quite handy.
Initiative boosts: Just Improved Initiative here, though with white raven maneuvers you can play around a bit with init.
Pounce: Starting at 1st level, with 2 attacks in a frenzy!  Life is good here.
Save swap maneuvers: Zealous Soul grants a reroll, but 6K will buy the reflex and will swap items.
Uncanny Dodge: Traded it out, but depending on playstyle you could bring it back in.

Other:
A lot depends on maneuvers chosen, but since most maneuvers rock for tanking this shouldn't be much of an issue.  The character is vulnerable to reflex and will saves especially without the maneuver items for them - I suppose a single dip into warblade for them and IHS could be worthwhile.