Author Topic: Attention All Illusionists!  (Read 5652 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Sinfire Titan

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5697
  • You've got one round to give a rat's ass.
    • Email
Attention All Illusionists!
« on: August 13, 2009, 04:16:23 PM »
Tired of that Illusion always getting Disbelieved? Want to make it possible to use Shadow Evocation/Conjuration and not worry about them disbelieving the effects? Here's 3 easy steps to boosting your Save DCs:

Step 1: Martial Stance (Any Shadow Hand stance).

Step 2: Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus (Illusion).

Step 3: Shadow Trickster feat, from the Book of 9 Swords.

4 feats, +4 to the save DC of all illusions you can cast. If you have 6 feats to spare (and are a female Sorcerer), there's a pair of feats from Ghost Walk that effectively act like Spellcaster Prodigy pre-PGtF for another +2 (and bonus spell slots).


This makes Save or Suck Illusion spells much more powerful, especially for Jade Phoenix Mage Gishes.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

BowenSilverclaw

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5337
  • Walking that fine line between genius and insanity
    • Email
Re: Attention All Illusionists!
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2009, 04:56:14 PM »
Combine with good ol' Snowcasting and all its associated Cold DC boosters for even more fun ;)
"Weakness? Come test thy mettle against me, hairless ape, and we shall know who is weak!"

Quote from: J0lt
You caught a fish.  It was awesome.   :lol

RobbyPants

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 7139
Re: Attention All Illusionists!
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2009, 04:57:51 PM »
Actually, aren't you looking at five feats?  You need to have a Shadow Hand maneuver to get Martial Study, IIRC.

+4 on DCs is nice, but four or five feats is pretty hefty.  It will be tough to do without multiclassing and/or flaws.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Sinfire Titan

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5697
  • You've got one round to give a rat's ass.
    • Email
Re: Attention All Illusionists!
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2009, 05:18:26 PM »
Actually, aren't you looking at five feats?  You need to have a Shadow Hand maneuver to get Martial Study, IIRC.

+4 on DCs is nice, but four or five feats is pretty hefty.  It will be tough to do without multiclassing and/or flaws.


Well, a dip into Swordsage for JPM entry is good enough to qualify, so it drops to 3 feats and a +4 to the DC (at the cost of CLs/spells). Desert/Jungle Kobolds can make up for lost levels using Rite/Loredrake, and human Sorcerers can use 2 other feats to get +4 Cha (for spell purposes). Changelings can combine this option with their racial sub levels, and anyone can combine this with Master Specialist.

Alternatively, swap Scribe Scroll for Martial Study via the Wizard variant that gives you Fighter feats. This eases up the requirements considerably, and the maneuver you learn can be an escape button of sorts (also, you get Hide as a class skill).


[spoiler][/spoiler]

PhaedrusXY

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8022
  • Advanced Spambot
Re: Attention All Illusionists!
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2009, 05:24:34 PM »
Alternatively, swap Scribe Scroll for Martial Study via the Wizard variant that gives you Fighter feats.
Damn... that is so awesome I don't have words for it. I'd never thought of that.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Sinfire Titan

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5697
  • You've got one round to give a rat's ass.
    • Email
Re: Attention All Illusionists!
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2009, 05:40:09 PM »
Alternatively, swap Scribe Scroll for Martial Study via the Wizard variant that gives you Fighter feats.
Damn... that is so awesome I don't have words for it. I'd never thought of that.

So, in all actuality, a Wizard 5 with that ACF could get both Martial Study and Stance without eating some of his mainstream feats. This leaves the 6th level feat, 15 levels worth of Wizard (for PrCs like Master Specialist, Shadowcraft Mage, and Recaster), and a good deal of feat slots open.

Wonder how high we can get that DC without using Taint/other infinite DC booster?


[spoiler][/spoiler]

BowenSilverclaw

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5337
  • Walking that fine line between genius and insanity
    • Email
Re: Attention All Illusionists!
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2009, 05:46:36 PM »
A Wizard 1 doesn't qualify due to a lack of IL, unless he's got a level of some other class before his first Wizard level, so a pure Wizard 5 would have to spend one of his regular feats if he wants both Martial Study and Martial Stance.
"Weakness? Come test thy mettle against me, hairless ape, and we shall know who is weak!"

Quote from: J0lt
You caught a fish.  It was awesome.   :lol

Smudgy

  • Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 334
Re: Attention All Illusionists!
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2009, 05:47:14 PM »
There's always Shadow Weave Magic, another +1 DC on top of that.

Sinfire Titan

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5697
  • You've got one round to give a rat's ass.
    • Email
Re: Attention All Illusionists!
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2009, 05:48:54 PM »
A Wizard 1 doesn't qualify due to a lack of IL, unless he's got a level of some other class before his first Wizard level, so a pure Wizard 5 would have to spend one of his regular feats if he wants both Martial Study and Martial Stance.

Well, that's if you ignore the signs of the devs leaning towards you rounding up for IL. Even then, Swordsage 1 at 1st level means you don't even need the feats.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

DerWille

  • That monkey with the orange ass cheeks
  • ****
  • Posts: 247
Re: Attention All Illusionists!
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2009, 05:56:41 PM »
We can also make use of some Incarnum tricks.

Something like Illusionist 3/Master Specialist 4/Shadowcraft Mage 3/Incarnate 1/Souldcaster 9

Feats might be something like (Didn't double check all requirements):

Silverbrow Human (2 flaws)
1) Martial Study, Martial Stance, Heighten Spell, Earth Sense, Earth Spell
3) Spell Focus: Illusion
6) Shape Soulmeld: Illusion Veil, Greater Spell Focus Illusion
9) Incarnum Casting
12) Snowcasting
15) Draconic Aura
18) Shadow trickster

 That's in no way optimal, but it's a rough idea. It should get something like: 10 + 12 (int) + 4 (Aura) + 2 (Spell Focus) + 5 (Soulmeld) + 2 (Soul casting) + 2 (Trickster) + 2 (Minor Esotera) + spell level = 39 + spell level, 40-48 DC range. If we can find a way to fit cold focus in there too we can get up to 50 DC easily.

 It might be more beneficial to take another caster level hit and save two feats for cold focus. Are there any items that boost Illusion DCs?

Sinfire Titan

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5697
  • You've got one round to give a rat's ass.
    • Email
Re: Attention All Illusionists!
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2009, 06:12:37 PM »
You're seriously missing requirements there. Soulcaster needs Incarnum Spellshaping. The good news is you only need 7 levels of Soulcaster to get the Arcane Investment 2. The Veil also only provides a flat +1 insight bonus to the save DCs of Illusions.

We need to double-check requirements. I know for a fact that Humans and Azurins can't qualify for Shadowcraft Mage, so Silverbrow is out. However, the Whisper Gnome qualifies, and Dragonborn can be applied to allow Dragonic Aura to apply (you lose a feat, but the excess levels of Soulcaster can replace that one).


[spoiler][/spoiler]

DerWille

  • That monkey with the orange ass cheeks
  • ****
  • Posts: 247
Re: Attention All Illusionists!
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2009, 06:15:38 PM »
There's an adaptation that lets you shift Shadowcraft mage from gnomes only to a cabal of spellcasters that don't care about race. It replaces the gnome requirement with joining that Cabal as an organization.

 I thought I included Incarnum Spellcasting in there for Soulcaster.

Echoes

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 476
Re: Attention All Illusionists!
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2009, 07:08:33 PM »
You can also use a Shadow Hand item to qualify for Martial Stance. Put the item on, which gives you a maneuver and thus qualifies you for the feat. Once you take the feat, you can take the item off because you still have a maneuver that self-qualifies. It does limit the level at which you can pull it off, but it's the least painful way to do it IMO (no lost CL, no extra feats). I like Child of Shadows, or if you can qualify Assassin's Stance (the latter is nice for Unseen Seer/Spellwarp Sniper builds who stack sneak attack on top of rays).
BrokeAndDrive speaks the Truth (linked for great justice and signature limits)

Quotes I Found Entertaining:

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

As a general rule, murdering people and taking their stuff is pretty much superior to breaking their stuff, murdering them, then not having any stuff to take.

Out of Context Theater
[spoiler]
Oh I'll make a party. I'll make a party so hard... I'll make a party that makes you feel so awkward downstairs.

You'll see the party and only be able to respond, "Oh yeah baby."
[/spoiler]

Sinfire Titan

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5697
  • You've got one round to give a rat's ass.
    • Email
Re: Attention All Illusionists!
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2009, 07:24:51 PM »
You can also use a Shadow Hand item to qualify for Martial Stance. Put the item on, which gives you a maneuver and thus qualifies you for the feat. Once you take the feat, you can take the item off because you still have a maneuver that self-qualifies. It does limit the level at which you can pull it off, but it's the least painful way to do it IMO (no lost CL, no extra feats). I like Child of Shadows, or if you can qualify Assassin's Stance (the latter is nice for Unseen Seer/Spellwarp Sniper builds who stack sneak attack on top of rays).

And the maneuver you put in the item will prove useful, such as one of the Teleportation maneuvers or the Greater Invisibility one.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

RobbyPants

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 7139
Re: Attention All Illusionists!
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2009, 07:25:05 PM »
Alternatively, swap Scribe Scroll for Martial Study via the Wizard variant that gives you Fighter feats.
Damn... that is so awesome I don't have words for it. I'd never thought of that.

So, in all actuality, a Wizard 5 with that ACF could get both Martial Study and Stance without eating some of his mainstream feats. This leaves the 6th level feat, 15 levels worth of Wizard (for PrCs like Master Specialist, Shadowcraft Mage, and Recaster), and a good deal of feat slots open.

Wonder how high we can get that DC without using Taint/other infinite DC booster?
That is a good idea.  I'm so used to that variant being used for Improved Initiative that I forgot it actually gave you a fighter feat. :p
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Aliment

  • That monkey with the orange ass cheeks
  • ****
  • Posts: 244
  • Illithid Zombies
Re: Attention All Illusionists!
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2009, 09:36:26 PM »
That is a good idea.  I'm so used to that variant being used for Improved Initiative that I forgot it actually gave you a fighter feat. :p
Other than Martial study though what do you spend the Fighter feat on?  I know a conjurer (Malconvoker) has little need for spending so many feats just to raise save dcs.
True Sign of Player Paranoia:
Player:"I look out of the keep"
DM:"There are no visible armies"
Player:"Aw crap theres an Invisible army!"

Sinfire Titan

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5697
  • You've got one round to give a rat's ass.
    • Email
Re: Attention All Illusionists!
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2009, 09:46:46 PM »
That is a good idea.  I'm so used to that variant being used for Improved Initiative that I forgot it actually gave you a fighter feat. :p
Other than Martial study though what do you spend the Fighter feat on?  I know a conjurer (Malconvoker) has little need for spending so many feats just to raise save dcs.

Dwarf Wizards can take Improved Racial Familiarity to get proficiency with about 6 weapons or so, allowing a Dwarf Wizard to qualify for Abjurant Champion without needing to dip into another class. PrC Bard does the same thing though, so YMMV.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

Akalsaris

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1143
    • Email
Re: Attention All Illusionists!
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2009, 11:23:19 PM »
Aliment: Most Malconvokers are much better off getting the Enhanced Conjuration ACF, which gives Augment Summoning instead of Scribe Scroll at 1st level; and then either leaving wizard for Master Specialist after 3rd, or getting the Spontaneous Divination ACF at 5th.

Things I've used the fighter bonus feat for in some builds...

Most builds where I have no better idea: Improved Initiative

Unseen Seer build: used it for Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot

Gish builds: EWP: Gnome Quickblade or Improved Weapon Familiarity (Gnome) for a decent weapon to fight and cast spells with, or EWP: Battle Cloak for a 0% ASF shield at 1st level.

Daggerspell Mage: Weapon focus (Dagger) (or Weapon Focus (Barbed Dagger) for a slight boost to damage) and Two-weapon Fighting

Swiftblade: Used it for Dodge and Mobility

Abjurant Champion: I've never done it, but Sinfire's dwarf wizard is a good idea!  (Ironically, Runesmith requires Scribe Scroll, so that PrC doesn't mix as well with the idea as it otherwise might)

Anima Mage: I could see a wizard going into this getting Combat Reflexes or Power Attack, depending on the build (Chupoclops, Paimon, etc)

Zhentarim Skymage: Mounted Combat

1st level mage in a 1-shot adventure: Might as well get Toughness!

I'm sure there's some other good martial feats out there as well :)

DerWille

  • That monkey with the orange ass cheeks
  • ****
  • Posts: 247
Re: Attention All Illusionists!
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2009, 11:34:52 PM »
I'm taking another shot at this, I'm going to provide two builds, one for a Gnome and one for a Human using the shadowcraft mage adaptation. First the Gnome.

Gnome (with 2 flaws)

Gnome Illusionist 1/Illusionist +2/Master Specialist 4/Shadowcraft Mage 3/Incarnate 1/Soulcaster 1/Swordsage 1/Soulcaster +6/Fate Spinner 2

ACFs:
1) Specialist Wizard: Illusionist - Banned schools: Enchantment, Evocation (Possibly conjuration instead of enchantment?)
2) Gnome Illusionist (RoS) - Conjuration at -1 caster level (This stings, but we can mimic this later with Shadow Conjuration)
3) Chains of Disbelief (UA) - Lose Familiar
4) Illusion Mastery (UA) - Lose bonus spells per day from specialization, Substitutes for Spell Mastery requirement.

Feats:
1) Spell Focus: Illusion, Shape Soul meld: Illusion Veil, Heighten Spell, Improved Initiative
3) Signature Spell
6) Earth Sense
7) Greater Spell Focus
9) Incarnum Spellshaping
12) Earth Spell
15) Shadow Trickster
18) *Tattoo Focus

*There are two versions of this feat, the one in the Player's Guide to Faerun has a racial requirement while the one in the Dungeon Master's Handbook under the Red Wizard entry does not. This character has taken the DMG's version.

Spell DC's: 10 + 12 (int) + 1 (Racial) + 1 (illusion veil) + 2 (Soulcaster) +2 (Spell Focus) + 2 (Minor Spell Esoteria) +2 (Shadow Trickster) + 1 (Tattoo Focus) +2 (Spin Fate) + spell level = 35 + spell Level = 35~44 DC.

 A pretty good DC, but it doesn't feel all that optimal. We lose 2 levels of casting in order to qualify for all our feats and PrCs.


True Neutral Silverbrow Human (w/ 2 Flaws)

Illusionist 3/Master Specialist 4/*Shadowcraft Mage 3/Incarnate 1/Soulcaster 1/Swordsage 1/Soulcaster +6/Fate Spinner 2

ACF:
1) Specialist Wizard: Illusionist - Banned schools: Enchantment, Evocation (Possibly conjuration instead of enchantment?)
2) Chains of Disbelief (UA) - Lose Familiar
3) Illusion Mastery (UA) - Lose bonus spells per day from specialization, Substitutes for Spell Mastery requirement.
4) *Shadowcraft Mage Adaptation

*The Adaptation for Shadowcraft Mages is this:

Adaptation: A cabal of nongnome illusionists could certainly use this prestige class; simply replace the racial requirement with a requirement that shadowcraft mages be members of the cabal. the requirement for a 4th level spell from the shadow subschool restricts this class to arcane spellcasters. If not for that requirement, clerics with the Trickery domain could qualify more easily than wizards or sorcerers.

Feats:
1) Spell Focus: Illusion, Heighten Spell, Tattoo Focus, Shape Soul Meld: Illusion Veil, Improved Initiative
3) Snowcasting
6) Earth Sense
9) Incarnum Spellshaping
12) Draconic Aura
15) Cold Focus   Shadow Trickster
18) Greater Cold Focus          Cold Focus

DC: 10 + 12 (int) + 5 (illusion veil) + 2 (Soulcaster) +2 (Spell Focus) + 2 (Minor Spell Esoteria) +2 (Shadow Trickster) + 1 (Tattoo Focus) +2 (Spin Fate) + 4 (Aura) + 2 (Cold Focus ) + spell level = 44 + spell Level = 44~53 DC.

DC: 10 + 12 (int) + 1 (Illusion veil) + 2 (Soul caster) + 2 (Spell Focus) + 2 (Minor Spell Esoteria) + 2(Shadow Trickster) + 1 (Tattoo Focus) + 2(Spin Fate) + 4 (Aura) + 1 (Cold Focus) + spell level = 39 + spell level = 39~48 DC

 Using Silverbrow Humans nets a higher DC, but it involves a somewhat questionable adaptation of the Shadowcraft Mage PrC. Both characters use the same class build, but a different feat build. I focused on trying to get DCs as high as possible and to be honest, the character feels the worse for it. Anyone else have any ideas on how to do this?
« Last Edit: August 14, 2009, 12:56:46 AM by DerWille »

Sinfire Titan

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5697
  • You've got one round to give a rat's ass.
    • Email
Re: Attention All Illusionists!
« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2009, 12:13:09 AM »
Word of advice: Dump the Greater Cold Focus unless the bonus it provides is higher than +2. Take the Shadow Trickster feat instead, as your level dip into Swordsage qualifies you for it (and at that level, you have your choice of 2nd level maneuvers, though you are still restricted to 1st level stances due to poor wording).

Edit: DC 43 for 2 CLs is amazing. The CLs can be made up for (but not the spell slots), and the options you get from Soulcaster and Swordsage make up for a lot of lost ground. Of note, you can get a bunch of healing abilities or attack bonuses (CN Incarnate Avatar gives Ranged Combat bonuses, so Ray spells are your 2nd best friend). Craft Magic Tattoo and an Orange Ioun Stone gives you a CL of 20th (and investing Essentia boosts the CL again). Most encounters have a 50% chance of making a DC 32 at 20th level. You are lowering those odds from 50% to 5%. They have to boost their saves just to survive 2 rounds.


Now that I look at it, Soulcaster may not be as worth-while as I thought. The class' Arcane Investment feature only works on up to 6 spells, all of which have to be different. It also only works when you shape your soulmelds. It can be dropped with minimal repercussions, as the spell Soul's Boon can give 5 Essentia/combat if you use a Ring of Wizardry.

And you miscalculated again with the Illusion Veil. It's a flat +1, not +1/Essentia. Investing Essentia only extends the spell's duration (not a bad thing). So really the Incarnate level can be dropped in favor of Shape Soulmeld, thus opening up other options.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2009, 12:21:51 AM by Sinfire Titan »


[spoiler][/spoiler]