Ardent/Elocater

[Zombieboots]

I am starting a Campaign in which we begin at 10th level and the DM has be kind enough to allow me to be the first Psion in his campaign.

I mused at the idea of a Ardent/Elocater but after doing some quick research apparently this is not such a good idea. Apparently? I have always been under the impression that the Elocater class is fairly well loved, but I can find nearly squat-all other then a few single levels dip here on BG or on Gleemax concerning the Elocater PrC.

Either way I would still appreciate some advise on the build below, or an alternate route with Psion as the base class.
The Party consists of an Avenger/Rogue, A Sor/El-Knight, Straight Druid, and a Wizard - we think.
Ebberon, FR, Dragon, UA, Web, and Non WoTC is not allowed. Although I could ask for permission if it comes to something small.

The Plan:
Unknown Race Ardent 5 / Fighter 1  / Elocater 4
Mantles: Freedom, Time, Energy
1 Ardent - Mantles x2 - Dodge
2 Ardent
3 Ardent - Mobility
4 Ardent
5 Ardent - New Mantle
6 Fighter - Spring Attack - Practiced Manifestor
7 Elocater
8 Elocater OS +2, No ML
9 Elocater Dimension Step - Expanded Knowhow (A Useful Power)
0 Elocater Flanker

Practiced Manifestor to offset the lose in ML and take at least 9 levels in Elocater.

Issues that I do not like: No REAL source of melee damage out side of Opportunistic Strike, but the flanking would be mainly to aid the rogue when able.

[Anklebite]

eh, i reccomend a psywar or an actual psion- both can output some good damage, while your elocator build might make you feel weak. 

i don't remember who originally posted this quote, but i have found it to be absolutely superb when it comes to make psywars.
[spoiler]
"The proper base build of a psychic warrior should have 15 -16 feats
1 of those feats should be psionic body.
7-8 of those feats should be Psionic Talent.
The remaining 7 feats shuold be whatever fighting style you're using and expanded knowledges.
That nets you +20 hp and 200pps at 20
You'll also have around 22-24 powers at 20 Most of which are utility powers or healing some of which are combat. This is how a generic psiwar shuold be built from my experience.
I've taken a liberty of taking snapshots of pps/per battle at every 5 levels under this system. not that you get 2 hps for every psychic feat you take as well. Assume human, and a 4 combat day.
1 You get 3pp at first level but thats okay Your're a fighter who can become large. Cool for level 1.
5. 28pp with 7 pps per encounter. You're Claws last 5 hours perday with 2 attacks and lions charge. You can also dimension swap.
10. 79 pp 19.5 per battle You become huge with claws that deal 4d6 damge that heal you 2d6
15. 135 pp. 34 per encounter. You can fly. And Catapsi which makes people reconsider the psionics/magic transparency rule.
20. 200 ppts 50pts per battle.  There are several ways in which you can not die. With things like Fiery discorporation. In general though you teleport swap people around and  not to mention mind wipe people for 6 negative levels at a time.
20th level is really just rocket tag, but this class DOES get to play rocket tag and is durable, it could vigor for 100 temp hitpoints or what ever."
[/spoiler]
i made this char as a BBEG for a game i DMed, and at level 6 it rocked. killed several party members..... one was a cohort and the other got crit by the EK: energy ray..... 


this is a bit stronger than the elocater build, and sorta simple to make. after all, it's just psywar 20.  just remember to take power attack and/or EWP: spiked chain.



as for playing a psion, I don't have much experiance. you can pretty much just go nuts with blasting, and grab a bit of utility and BC. I hear that astral construct is fun... 

[PhaedrusXY]

Hell yeah, baby! I'll help you build an Ardent/Elocater, because I've been wanting to build/play one myself.

Warning: I am on an "anti-charger" kick lately, and I think Ardents make good "bodyguard" types of characters. These two things seem to go very well together, and this build is centered around that theme. I've played a few low level Ardent characters with the "bodyguard" theme lately, and will post mantles, powers known, and equipment lists from them below. If I have time, I'll go on to extend this to apply to the 20th level build.

Here is what I've came up with:

Monk (Cobra Strike) 2/Ardent 4/Elocater 10/Ardent +4

Mantles: Physical Power, Freedom, Guardian, Time

Feats: Practiced Manifester (Ardent)(human), Evasive Reflexes (1), Dodge (monk1), Psicrystal Affinity (flaw1), Linked Power (flaw2), Expanded Knowledge: Share Pain (3), Mobility (monk2), Spring Attack (6), Sidestep Charge (Eloc1), Psionic Meditation (9), Combat Reflexes (12), Stand Still (15), Psicrystal Containment (18)


With a pair of Steadfast Boots, and a reach weapon and using some of the powers known and mantles from below, this guy can do the following:

1) Give himself loads of temporary hit points every round as a swift action (Linked Power + Hustle/Adrenaline Boost/Dimension Hop + Vigor). You manifest a swift action power and Link it to Vigor (which "goes off" in the next round but doesn't cost an action). If this power was Hustle, you can use the extra Move Action to regain your focus that was spent on Linked Power, allowing you to do this every round (you shouldn't need to).
1a) This Vigor is shared with his psicrystal, so it gets an equal amount of temporary hit points. Half of the ardent's damage goes to the psicrystal via Share Pain, so overall he effectively gets 10 temporary hit points per power point he pumps into Vigor in this way, instead of 5.
2) Take the damage from an attack targeting an adjacent ally himself as an immediate action (Guardian Mantle).
3) Stab anyone who charges him for double damage (Steadfast Boots). Then likely get an Attack of Opportunity on them, unless their reach is greater than his.
4) Take a 10 foot step instead of an Attack of Opportunity (Elocater ability + Evasive Reflexes feat).
4a) If someone tries to attack him on a charge and misses (and he gets a +4 to his AC for that), he gets to make an AoO against them. He can instead use this to 10 foot step away, as above, if he wants. This should let him get out of the way of the full attacks of chargers. He still gets to stab them for double damage, though.
5) Stop people from moving (Stand Still).
6) Fly, Teleport (as a swift action for short distances), Plane Shift, etc. He has 9th level powers.
7) See invisible/hiding/etc people. His psicrystal has Mindsight.

The following are from a level 7 "bodyguard" ardent/psiwarrior build:

Psionic Powers:
[spoiler]
Power Points: 45
Ardent: 35 (25 + 10)
PW: 10 (1+9)

Mantles: Physical Power, Freedom, Guardian, Time
Ardent Powers (ML7):
1st: Adrenaline Boost, Vigor
2nd: Hustle, Damp Power
3rd: Dispel Psionics
4th: Fly

Psiwarrior Powers (ML6): Expansion, Dimension Hop

Mantle Powers:
Freedom: +10 to speed when focused, expend focus for +ML to escape a grapple
Guardian: Expend focus as an immediate action to take a hit for someone. Must do this the after attack roll, but before the damage roll.
Physical Power: Expend focus as a free action to add +2 to Str, Dex, or Con for 1 round.
Time Mantle: +2 to Initiative. Can expend focus as an immediate action to delay damage from an attack or effect for 1 round. You cannot gain immunity to this damage in the mean time. It affects you as it would at the time you delayed it.[/spoiler]

PsicrystalTactics:[spoiler]
Can manifest Vigor for free during a fight, using Linked Power + Adrenaline Surge (which itself is a nice swift action buff)(Swift action, expend focus). Combined with the Physical Power mantle ability (expend focus), this can give a total of +4 to Str and Con which stacks with enhancement bonuses.

Alternatively, he could link Vigor to Hustle, and use the Hustle to regain his focus, allowing him to conceivably do this every round. In practice, he will fail the Concentration check sometimes at this level, though. Also, since he only has one attack, he can just use his Move Action to regain focus if he doesn't have to move for that round.

The Guardian mantle lets him take a hit for someone by expending his focus as an Immediate action, which with Share Pain + Vigor, he can do very well.

He'll have to manage his actions and foci wisely, but with Hustle + Psionic Meditation, he can get his own focus back with a swift action and some power points.

His psicrystal has the Mindsight feat, which when combined with his defensive and guardian capabilities overall make him a superb "bodyguard". [/spoiler]

Progression and Point Buy:
[spoiler](Underlined = Mantle, Italics = Power, Normal = Feat)
1: Ardent1 Practiced Manifester: Ardent (1), Psicrystal Affinity (human), Practiced Manifester: Psiwarrior (flaw1), Stand Still (flaw2); Freedom, Physical Power; Vigor, Adrenaline Boost
2: PW1 Linked Power (PW1), Dimension Hop
3: PW2 Psionic Meditation, Psicrystal Containment (PW2), Expansion
4: Ard2 Guardian, Hustle
5: Ard3 Dispel Psionics
6: Ard4 EK: Share Pain, Damp Power
7: Ard5 Time, Psionic Fly

32 Point Buy:
Str 14 (6)
Dex 14 (6)
Con 14 (6)
Int 12 (4)
Wis 16 (15+1@4) (8)
Cha 10 (2)[/spoiler]

Alternative Progressions (w/o Flaws):
[spoiler](Underlined = Mantle, Italics = Power, Normal = Feat)
1: Ardent1 Practiced Manifester: Ardent (1), Stand Still (human); Guardian, Physical Power; Vigor, Adrenaline Boost
2: PW1 Linked Power (PW1), Expansion
3: Ard2 Psicrystal Affinity, Freedom, Share Pain
4: PW2 Practiced Manifester: Psiwarrior (PW2), Dimension Hop
5: Ard3 Damp Power
6: Ard4 Psicrystal Containment, Thicken Skin
7: Ard5 Time, Psionic Fly [/spoiler]

[spoiler](Underlined = Mantle, Italics = Power, Normal = Feat)
1: Ardent1 Practiced Manifester: Ardent (1), Stand Still (human); Guardian, Physical Power; Vigor, Adrenaline Boost
2: PW1 Linked Power (PW1), Expansion
3: Ard2 Psicrystal Affinity, Magic, Share Pain (will have put CC ranks in UPD up until here, which will now be converted into full ranks of UMD/UPD, and I'll buy a wand of Benign Transposition and a Wand Chamber)
4: PW2 Practiced Manifester: Psiwarrior (PW2), Dimension Hop
5: Ard3 Damp Power
6: Ard4 Psicrystal Containment, Thicken Skin
7: Ard5 Time or Freedom, Time Hop or Psionic Fly [/spoiler]



Powers known are precious, so if you can find some way to "cheat" and get more by traveling with another psionic character, giving them to your psicrystal via feats and then using them, etc, then do it. One way to do this is to take Leadership (if noone else is playing a psionic character), and then have your cohort take Share Pain as a known power and use it on you (sending half your damage to your psicrystal). You could also take Expanded Knowledge: Feat Leech, and have a cohort with Expanded Knowledge feats. Then you can "borrow" your cohorts Expanded Knowledge feats, and use them to temporarily "learn" any power you want (up to 1 level lower than your max). Psychic Reformation is also incredibly powerful for this (especially if you can get it without the XP cost, by putting it into a reusable tattoo, for example).

This build won't be doing tremendous damage, but it will be able to play the battlefield control role ok, and it has some utility (it is very mobile, and can be the party "Taxi"). You can boost the damage by using a Deep Crystal weapon, but it will cost you some power points. You could also go with a Raptoran instead of human, and use a longspear to get double damage when you "charge" while flying.

[Surreal]

I would drop a couple levels of Elocator to get that tasty Ardent 10 Dominant Ideal ACF.

[PhaedrusXY]

I would drop a couple levels of Elocator to get that tasty Ardent 10 Dominant Ideal ACF.

Hmm... yeah, that is very nice. It might be worth giving up Accelerated Action for, but it is so damn hard to make a character that can actually take all 10 levels of Elocater and not suck, that I'd be tempted to stick with it till the end. AA is quite nice itself, anyway. You can use it to manifest a power in the same round that you make a full attack 5x per day.

[awaken DM golem]

Fighter 1 feels kinda unnecessary. Elocator gives Martial weapons, and Ardent already has Heavy Armor. I prefer some more psi-feats.

Sticking Erudite 1 in there somewhere, gives the psicrystal, and an extra feat.

imho - Mind's Eye Ardent Substitute Powers makes the Expanded Knowledge feat(s) unnecessary.

So that'd be 3 more feats, traded for 1 less level of Ardent.
Still get to the 9s, Tashalatora for more Monk goodies.
The other 2 feats can go to Elemental Envoy early, or a Lock style approach later.

I like Dominant Ideal, but it kinda makes an Ardent into a caster build, delaying any PrCs. I still like it, but don't know about it with this.

Linked Power at level 1. Yes, nice catch, but it doesn't do anything until level 2. Retraining target.

Does Ardent + Elocator work with the "old" Shadow Pouncer stuff?

[PhaedrusXY]

Fighter 1 feels kinda unnecessary. Elocator gives Martial weapons, and Ardent already has Heavy Armor. I prefer some more psi-feats.

Sticking Erudite 1 in there somewhere, gives the psicrystal, and an extra feat.

Good idea, but it will cost you another point of BAB. I agree that the fighter level is unnecessary, though, and I'd rather have another psionic feat than another fighter feat.

imho - Mind's Eye Ardent Substitute Powers makes the Expanded Knowledge feat(s) unnecessary.

That requires a lenient DM. I've had them turn down adding more powers to mantles (although to be fair, the same DM did allow substitution of powers). Also, if you can party with another psychic, this makes EK mostly unnecessary, also.

So that'd be 3 more feats, traded for 1 less level of Ardent.
Still get to the 9s, Tashalatora for more Monk goodies.

I don't really think Tashalatora is worth two feats for someone who will be using a reach weapon. The unarmed strike is basically just so you still threaten at 5' (of course, you could just wear spiked armor, etc).

I like Dominant Ideal, but it kinda makes an Ardent into a caster build, delaying any PrCs. I still like it, but don't know about it with this.

Linked Power without blowing your focus is freakin' uber...

Linked Power at level 1. Yes, nice catch, but it doesn't do anything until level 2. Retraining target.

Yeah, that's certainly a good idea.

Does Ardent + Elocator work with the "old" Shadow Pouncer stuff?

Meh, the Dimension Hop power kind of obviates the need for any Shadow Pouncer stuff. You can hop around over short distances as a swift action by just taking that power. You could also use your reduced cost Teleport + Linked Power to hop around cheaply, too, if you want to go further.

[Samb]

Dominant ideal......wow

When's that Ardent handbook coming?  There are more ways to be a good melee damage dealer than using a bunch of feats.  I'm not too sure elocater is the best choice here but for the flavor I can understand, I just retired my rogue/psywar/elocater and I must say it was alot of fun.

I'd say get creation mantle somewhere so you can get a flanking buddy that can grapple as a free action (emerald gyre i think it was?).

[PhaedrusXY]

When's that Ardent handbook coming? 

As soon as I get these two papers I'm working on written, and that grant proposal that's due in just over a month turned in. (So, not too soon. )

[Zombieboots]

Wow, love the Monk/Ardent Phasdrus, Sadly no flaws, but I can certainly work with that layout! Prehaps my DM will allow me to add Share Pain to the Gaurdian Mantle.
Interesting idea with the PisWarrior Anklebite... Very interesting...

[Anklebite]

I take no credit for the awesome psywar building advice, I only wish I could remember who to credit....  the one I used in my campain was awesome 

[Samb]

I think an ardent is the type that is caster main but decent melee with the right buffs and powers/mantles.  If custom mantles are allowed then it will save you a bunch on feats.  I think ardent 10/elocater 10 would be fun to play and not as bad as I originally thought,

If offense is your game:
ardent 10/swordsage 2/elocater 8 or ardent 11/SS2/Elo7


Lose one mantle but still get level nine powers.  The first build will lose 1 level 9 power but gain opp strike +6, always a great addition to accuacy and damage.  The latter build is to preseve all your powers at the cost of 2 bonus on melee.  There is a chance I misread the way a swordsage gains stances; I assumed that the first stance they know has to level one while the second one can be any level (after retraining) that they can pick.  So you will need 2 levels in swordsage for a assassin stance which is a good boost to your damage.

So here's the gist of it:
1) WIS will give you more PP, raise the DC on your powers, boost your AC (touch and flat-footed), and just make you sexier

2) Spring attack with maneuvers is one of the few good combos that spring attack can be used for.  Maneuvers cannot (in general) be used in full attacks, so your best bet is to hit them with a high damaging maneuver and move out so they can't full attack you.

3) One of your mantles will be creation (you will pick this right?) so you can make full use of flanker and opp strike.

4) dominant mantle should be...... I'd say freedom.  It has a good swift action power (hustle, and dimensional hop) that you can use and link it.  It also has alot of great powers that compliment well with elocater features.  So should you use your focus on something else you gain back with hustle and link it.  Another choice would be physical power since it has vigor which you would be using a lot. Secondary mantles: creation (pick the emerald gryle for free trip and grab), natural world (for metamorph) and physical power for vigor.  I would highly recommend conflict for the free weapon finesse and PLC.

5) skills should be max concentration for insightful strike from diamond mind.  The rest is up to you.

6) feats: spring attack (3), metamorphic transfer, EK schism (no real way to put it into a mantle), practised manifster, linked power, psicrystal and the rest is up to you really.  Opp strike will offset most of the combat feats anyway.  Deep impact and power attack is definatly a consideration when combined with opp strike= lots of damage.  Flaws would be a HUGE bonus, I would beg your DM to implement them.

[PhaedrusXY]

Good idea with using maneuvers and Spring Attack. Do Swordsages get bonus feats, though? That was the main reason I included the Cobra Strike Monk levels. This build is quite feat starved. Does Warblade get bonus feats at 1st and 2nd? If so, you might go with that instead.

[Samb]

Good idea with using maneuvers and Spring Attack. Do Swordsages get bonus feats, though? That was the main reason I included the Cobra Strike Monk levels. This build is quite feat starved. Does Warblade get bonus feats at 1st and 2nd? If so, you might go with that instead.

Alas swordsage doesn't give bonus feats and warblade doesn't give a bonus feat until level 5.  Ardents, like class that give bonus feats, is starved for feats so that is no surprise.  What compunds the problem is that they need 3 feats to qualify for elocater.  If the DM doesn't like flaws it is unlikely that he will allow custom mantles but one can always hope.

With flaws:

human: psicrystal affinity + alterness
f: link power
f: dodge
1: mobility
Mantles: weapon focus, ectopic form (emerald gryle)
3: psychic renewal or boost construct
6: spring attack
9: practised manifester
12: EK: schism or psionic meditation if your DM allows for custom mantles
15:metamorphic transfer
18:

Psychic renewal combined with dominant ideal (freedom) could very well be a gamebreaker.  Say you have a very heavy hitting maneuver, but since you are a swordsage it takes full round to concentrate.  With psychic renewal you can expend your focus to regain a maneuver instead.

Now with psionic meditation and dominant ideal: freedom you can keep regaining focus and expanding it (to regain your super move) every turn.

Pretty tight even with feats.  If no flaws then I'd say surprise him with tattoo mastery and make all your feats floating feats.  When his jaw hits the floor ask him if he wants to reconsider his stance on flaws.

[awaken DM golem]

I like Dominant Ideal, but it kinda makes an Ardent into a caster build, delaying any PrCs. I still like it, but don't know about it with this.

Linked Power without blowing your focus is freakin' uber...

Wow, that is uber.

[Samb]

I like Dominant Ideal, but it kinda makes an Ardent into a caster build, delaying any PrCs. I still like it, but don't know about it with this.

Linked Power without blowing your focus is freakin' uber...

Wow, that is uber.

It also has metapower built in.  So link power that doesn't lose focus and lowers metapsionic cost by two.  So say you make dimensional hop (or any lvl 1 swift action power) and put metapower on it, you have 3 PP to "overchannel" since dominant ideal and metapower lowers your metapsionic cost.  With linked power, your metapsionic cost is the cost of the linked power.  So you could be manifesting things for free or going over your usual allotment of PP.

dimensional hop-->Bestow power for recharge just like wilders now...... Very powerful ACF.

[kalaskaagathas]

Pretty tight even with feats.  If no flaws then I'd say surprise him with tattoo mastery and make all your feats floating feats.  When his jaw hits the floor ask him if he wants to reconsider his stance on flaws.

How are you making your feats floating feats?

[Samb]

tattoo of psychic reformation with a capacitor linked to it.  Click on the "getting re-wired" link in my sig.

[PhaedrusXY]

Pretty tight even with feats.  If no flaws then I'd say surprise him with tattoo mastery and make all your feats floating feats.  When his jaw hits the floor ask him if he wants to reconsider his stance on flaws.

Well... he has to allow that in the first place.  I'd say that a Capacitor-linked Psychic Reformation is one of the most powerful things you can do with it, though. If that doesn't scare him away from allowing it, probably nothing will. And even that has its limitations (you can only use it every few days. If you want to use it more frequently, you have to pay for a recharge setup and pay a bunch of power points every time you recharge it).

[kalaskaagathas]

Well, with another two feats, recharging it becomes something of a non-issue doesn't it?  Those two being Azure Talent and Psycarnum Infusion, both from Magic of Incarnum.  Granted, adding feats to a feat starved build and all of that, but I think it comes out to three necessary feats to make the rest rewritable...I'm not sure how viable it would be at lower levels though.  But maybe they wait till your first Psychic Reformation, replacing whatever feats you needed to get to that point?