Author Topic: Optimize this cat! Feral housecat needs some class levels.  (Read 3578 times)

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Brainpiercing

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Optimize this cat! Feral housecat needs some class levels.
« on: August 10, 2009, 11:36:23 AM »
So I wanted to give one of my players a permanent buddy, sort of NPC cohort, because he's still running around by himself in my PbP. And originally, well, it was supposed to be a Frenzied Berserker house cat. However... a tiny animal using natural weapons just doesn't give much to a berserker. But the cat is definitely set in stone, so I need something that is mechanically a bit more viable, and importantly, without being a spellcaster (but may be psionic). The role of this guy will be to scout and muscle. He also won't get much in the way of equipment, to be precise he will start completely naked, and probably everything he gets will depend on the PC he accompanies.

House rules are here :http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=809.msg20032#msg20032, but they are LONG, so I don't expect you to read all of them. Allowed books are all WotC and no mags. Power level of the rest of the campaign is pretty anime.

What's set in stone so far:

Awakened Modified Feral House Cat with stat boosts and Telepathy+Mindsight HD*10ft, entering at Lvl 8.
Racial traits of a cat (skill bonuses) + special qualities of the feral template. (I.e. Darkvision, low-light-vision, Pounce, rakes, 1D4 claws, 1D6 Bite, Fast-healing 4 (5 at Lvl 12), Attach instead of Improved Grab, essentially allowing it to Rake but not to pin in a grapple, and use Dex instead of Str for grappling. Will probably get +4 on the grapple check to attach as a sort of negative size bonus.)

4HD magical beast (Good Fort and Ref, Full BAB, 1D10, 2+Int skills, + 12 bonus HP), stat mods of
-2 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Con, +4 Wis, -2 Cha, and Int is set at 12. This cat gets a 25 point-for-point buy.

My initial Stat distribution was (but is open for changes)

Str 10 (2pts)
Dex 24 (10pts +2lvls)
Con 17 (7 pts)
Int 12 (must take 4 pts)
Wis 12 (0)
Cha 8 (2 pts)

Feats I've settled on for the first four HD are Weapon Finesse (bonus from cat), and  Multiattack. Which leaves one Bonus Feat at Lvl 1 from house-rules from a small list, and the feats from lvl 3 and lvl 6. The bonus feat must provide a small numerical bonus and cannot scale. The focuses (any) have all been house-ruled to scale, so that won't work.  Dodge works, Save boosters work, etc.

Now as a recon+muscle critter, this cat needs some bonus damage on his natural attacks. Additional attacks don't help that much, I guess it'll just stay at three + rakes on a pounce. Now there are four levels to play with, but of course the plan can go further.

What I've been thinking of:
Hit and Run fighter 1, Scout 3,
Gets dex to damage vs. flat-footed and makes good use of pouncing, and adds 1d6 skirmish damage at this level. (So on a pounce vs. a flat-footed enemy that would be 4x 1d4+1d6+7 (avg. 4x 13) and 1x 2d6 +7 (avg. 14), 66 total  damage. Hmm, that's not really much, and won't overcome immunities. Hopefully the flat-footed condition will be easy enough to lay on the enemies through teamwork.

Ranger 1, Scout 3 and advance as Swift Hunter, which is quite good due to the faster damage progression, but lacks the H&R-fighter benefit, naturally. I've been thinking about a ranger revision, as I think Rangers suck balls for anything above 2 levels, so it might even get improved favoured enemy benefits.

Maybe H&R Fighter 1, Ranger 1, Scout 2, and get Swift Hunter at 9, which seems to not be such a bad choice, all things considered.

Ardent 4 (with different stats), but I'm having trouble picking the mantles, and bonus damage is a pain to get on this setup. However, since its apparently entirely fiat to add powers to mantles, and I'm the DM, I can do this as I like, so I was thinking of using Claws of the Vampire paired with something to up the damage.

Something 1/Warmind 3, using Psionic Talent or however it was called as a bonus feat. Still suffers from piddly powers known and very few powerpoints.

Initiators work very poorly with natural weapons, so I don't see a lot of options. There may be some, though, if someone could help me there.... (Can I somehow get Shadow Blade to apply to natural weapons with some Warblade aptitude gimmicks?)

Rogue perhaps, but I don't like Rogues much, somehow.

So, has someone ever tried optimizing damage output on a tiny animal with only a few levels to play with? And without sacrificing too many other things, like versatility. I would really like to turn this into something viable. Please help.

Emy

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Re: Optimize this cat! Feral housecat needs some class levels.
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2009, 03:02:59 PM »
I don't think Warblade's Weapon Aptitude would work. The Aptitude Weapon enhancement might, though.

The Fierce [Arms and Equipment Guide] enhancement would let the cat trade its normal Dex to AC for Dex to damage.

This is tough. There are so many more ways to add Charisma to everything.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Optimize this cat! Feral housecat needs some class levels.
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2009, 04:02:06 PM »
Isn't there a Shadowblade stance that lets you add Dex to damage? And can't you pick that up relatively easy? That would be a very large boost to our little furry friend... I'm not that versed in ToB, though, so I might be mistaken.
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Anklebite

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Re: Optimize this cat! Feral housecat needs some class levels.
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2009, 04:06:36 PM »
its actually a feat that only works while in a shadow hand stance. but it is dex to damage....
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Re: Optimize this cat! Feral housecat needs some class levels.
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2009, 04:16:02 PM »
You'll need some way of giving the housecat reach; otherwise, it'll have to enter an opponent's space to attack, which provokes attacks of opportunity.

What about making it a shapeshifting variant druid (or ranger)? That + MoMF and warshaper would work well.
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Optimize this cat! Feral housecat needs some class levels.
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2009, 04:18:53 PM »
You'll need some way of giving the housecat reach; otherwise, it'll have to enter an opponent's space to attack, which provokes attacks of opportunity.

What about making it a shapeshifting variant druid (or ranger)? That + MoMF and warshaper would work well.
I think adding some levels of Warshaper would work very nicely. ;) How about giving it the pseudonatural template, instead of using MoMF, to qualify for Warshaper? Then have it turn into an ugly mass of tentacles (with reach!) when it goes into combat. :D (Of course I mean the "lesser" pseudonatural template, from CArc, not the epic one in the SRD).
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Emy

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Re: Optimize this cat! Feral housecat needs some class levels.
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2009, 04:25:41 PM »
You'll need some way of giving the housecat reach; otherwise, it'll have to enter an opponent's space to attack, which provokes attacks of opportunity.

What about making it a shapeshifting variant druid (or ranger)? That + MoMF and warshaper would work well.

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Ithamar

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Re: Optimize this cat! Feral housecat needs some class levels.
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2009, 04:28:08 PM »
Perhaps Totemist for some more natural attacks, or Blink Shirt, breath weapon, etc.?

Isn't there a Grimalkin or something in MMII that is basically a polymorphing house cat?  Add Feral to that and see where it takes you.
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Re: Optimize this cat! Feral housecat needs some class levels.
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2009, 05:00:04 PM »
The Melee Killer Gnome should provide plenty of ideas :)
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Brainpiercing

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Re: Optimize this cat! Feral housecat needs some class levels.
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2009, 07:58:19 PM »
its actually a feat that only works while in a shadow hand stance. but it is dex to damage....
Yes, but it only works with a Shadown Hand weapon, while claws are a Tiger Claw weapon. Grrr.

The Melee Killer Gnome should provide plenty of ideas :)
Yes, I had forgotten about that. I'll be sure to look at it.

You'll need some way of giving the housecat reach; otherwise, it'll have to enter an opponent's space to attack, which provokes attacks of opportunity.

What about making it a shapeshifting variant druid (or ranger)? That + MoMF and warshaper would work well.

Underfoot Combat
Confound the Big Folk
Well, since I'll need the four HD Wildshape ranger wouldn't work, although adding an alternate form to give it access to to MOMF might be a way. I still wanted it to jump into people's faces and claw them, which means it naturally has to enter an enemy's space. Which is about the only thing an initiator class is good for: Battle-leader's charge, Bounding Assault, etc. all deny AoOs for movement.

Now luckily I've changed the retraining mechanism so I can take Underfoot Combat at 7, because it won't work at 6. I just need Tumble as a class skill at 7 to dump 10 ranks into it. I could also retrain whatever Level 3 feat I should take to Confound the Big Folk at the same level. Hmmmmm.

So it:
Lvl 1: Weapon finesse (bonus), Dodge (bonus),Multiattack
Lvl 3: Whatever, retrained to Confound
Lvl 5: Mobility (fighter bonus), H&R-fighter
Lvl 6: Ranger stuff, favoured enemy (arcanists), feat retrained to Underfoot
Lvl 7: Scout
Lvl 8: Scout stuff
Lvl 9: Swift Hunter

Blade Bravo is unavailable, although I guess I could just change the requirements entirely (it's not like I don't allow that when my players really want it.)

However, I think I could do a bit more Scout until Lvl 10, the sweet spot so I get a second favoured enemy and also enough skirmish to take Improved Skirmish as the bonus feat, which brings me to +4d6/+3 AC when he moves 20ft.

Then I could take a second level of Fighter to gain Wf(Claw) and take Improved Toughness (since Toughness is removed) at 12, which qualifies me for Thayan Gladiator. Which is... well, there are some good things, most notably a Rapidstrike equivalent. But it's only good if it applies to BOTH claws. Hmm, any opinions? Or just really take Rapidstrike normally? Does it maybe stack with Rapidstrike? Still doesn't improve the damage at all, basically...

Any more hints?

Nuntius Mortis

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Re: Optimize this cat! Feral housecat needs some class levels.
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2009, 01:02:32 PM »
House Cat

Cha 8 (2 pts)

No, no, no, no, no. That's plainly wrong. House cats should never have a Charisma score lower than 14 no matter what. :P

On topic now, I think that you should take a look at bhu's Uncle Kitties Handbook of Spuriously Made Prestige Classes. I know that your house cat is not a Cat Burglar but you should be available for taking those feats or prestige classes (because you're a friggin' cat). I won't suppose that your PCs would argue about that because there's nothing overpowered about the guide.

Or else you could just be a spellcaster, get polymorph and then polymorph into a human. Then you'd be the exact opposite of cat burglar and all the others would think that you were a human polymorphing into a cat instead of the opposite  :lmao

PS: Yeah, I know that the options are not strong enough but they're incredibly funny fluff-wise. If you wanted something strong just grab some levels in Totemist.
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Brainpiercing

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Re: Optimize this cat! Feral housecat needs some class levels.
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2009, 02:27:26 PM »
Quote
If you wanted something strong just grab some levels in Totemist.

I'm ridiculously uninformed with Incarnum classes. How would this work, approximately? It doesn't seem to make sense to get Girallon claws on a cat.

Nuntius Mortis

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Re: Optimize this cat! Feral housecat needs some class levels.
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2009, 02:40:59 PM »
Quote
If you wanted something strong just grab some levels in Totemist.

I'm ridiculously uninformed with Incarnum classes. How would this work, approximately? It doesn't seem to make sense to get Girallon claws on a cat.

I'm uninformed about Incarnum as well. However, Sinfire Titan has made a great thread about Incarnum classes. One build mentioned a Totemist with Amulet of Natural Armor (however, due to the clause of no items for that character an AoNA wouldn't be so viable) that exploited those natural attacks at its full potential. The fact that it's most vital stat is Constitution followed by Dexterity (you have Weapon Finesse so Str wouldn't be that important) synergizes good with the stats of the player.
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Brainpiercing

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Re: Optimize this cat! Feral housecat needs some class levels.
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2009, 10:47:49 AM »
Hmm.... Is there any clause, anywhere, that I could use Skirmish to qualify for feats or abilities that require Sneak Attack? That would be very sweet, then I could take Craven for Skirmishing. There doesn't seem to be, though, in the class feature description of the Scout. Now where do I get sneak attack without taking Rogue levels?

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Re: Optimize this cat! Feral housecat needs some class levels.
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2009, 12:15:40 PM »
its on the list. the easy way, i think is simply ToB manuver.
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Re: Optimize this cat! Feral housecat needs some class levels.
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2009, 12:18:43 PM »
Well, Pyrokineticist 1 lets you summon a whip made of fire which has 15ft-reach and 1d8 base damage regardless of size. :p
« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 12:34:49 PM by Prime32 »
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Re: Optimize this cat! Feral housecat needs some class levels.
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2009, 12:32:05 PM »
Tiny creatures are crazy powerful, mostly because of Confound the Big Folk and that other similar feat.  Use those and go nuts.

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Re: Optimize this cat! Feral housecat needs some class levels.
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2009, 12:53:53 PM »
its on the list. the easy way, i think is simply ToB manuver.
Yes, Assassin's stance, unfortunately it's a Lvl3 stance, so I would have to take two feats or two levels of Swordsage to get it. (Or one level and one feat.) While that by itself wouldn't be an entirely bad investment, I had hoped to get by without it. Hmm, I'm going to have to think all that through, especially if it could open sudden leap/battle jump shenanigans (with battle jump's racial requirements waived, which I do quite frequently).

Now the funny thing is, my preliminary build contained Dodge and Mobility, but I can't remember what I wanted to qualify for. I guess Elusive Target. Spring Attack makes no sense, really, although with 50ft base speed it would be quite neat. I want to pounce, though, and sit on other people, so maybe I should reconsider.
It seems a bit early to go for defensive feats, though, while my offense isn't nearly as pronounced as I would like it. I should be getting improved trip and doing the Confound tripping stuff, which is especially neat.

Pyro is a bit dodgy without hands, although.. well, I guess I could make it work, of course. Now if only Cha weren't the dump stat I could add Binder to get Paimon's dance of death, with 15ft reach and skirmish damage :). I think I probably won't do that, though.

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Re: Optimize this cat! Feral housecat needs some class levels.
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2009, 06:13:17 PM »
Tibbit's in the Dragon Compendium alllow you to take warshaper prestige class.  (they can turn into a cat at will)