Author Topic: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!  (Read 28666 times)

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Samb

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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #60 on: August 09, 2009, 10:30:19 PM »
Potions dealing sneak attack damage is one of the silliest things I've heard of.  I've never had a DM that allowed SA on flasks and the main reason why I have never used potion throwing to any great extent.

Where is it stated that you can do this? 

dark_samuari

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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #61 on: August 09, 2009, 10:34:13 PM »
Also, at mid levels, many fighters have a golf bag of magic weapons to deal with DR. We want magic bludgeoning, piercing, slashing, silver, cold iron, adamantine (obviously, they overlap). A flask thrower doesn't need all that junk. He just gets a couple of magic melee weapons, and pours the money that the fighter would need for his second and third backup weapon into his hewards haversack and flasks.

A Morphing, Sure Striking, Metalline Longsword comes to 12,315 gp and offers up the versatility to overcome any alignment-based damage reduction, metal-based damage reduction and damage-based damage reduction. This can be purchased at 6th level and above (by wealth by level) and can remain useful for a warrior's entire adventuring career.

Vinom

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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #62 on: August 09, 2009, 10:36:56 PM »
Where is it stated that you can do this? 

Where is it stated that you can't, ]
I once had a rogue sneak attack someone with a thunderstone...
A player once asked me if there was any way to make a Tarrasque more evil... 3 sessions later he was stoned with D20s as the PC led an exidus out of the path of a Dire Tarrasque of Legendary Wonder.

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dark_samuari

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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #63 on: August 09, 2009, 10:44:52 PM »
Ugh... Now we're going to begin the arguement over the phrase "vital spot" aren't we?

Samb

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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #64 on: August 09, 2009, 10:55:38 PM »
Ok I suppose you could do a precision attack with a granade like throw it into thier armor or something but that would no longer be a touch attack. Just thinking about it logically that is the only way a precise attack can be  made, by calling your shots at key spots, something that isn't taken into account with an AoO. Do you deal SA to all hit even if you were not aiming at them (much less precisily)? 

"precision attack" means just that. The fact it wasn't stated AoEs can do SA damage is implied in the defnition of precision. 

Bozwevial

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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #65 on: August 09, 2009, 11:11:17 PM »
To be fair, though, if you toss a flask of acid at one specific spot, there's a chance at least some of the acid will hit that spot. The question is, how precise does something need to be to qualify for precision damage? I don't think I've ever seen someone sneak attack with, say, Fireball.

JaronK

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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #66 on: August 09, 2009, 11:15:42 PM »
Fireball doesn't require an attack roll, which is a requirement for sneak attack.  But yes, though by RAW it does work (damage and an attack roll are all you actually need), a lot of DMs will balk at the idea of doing precision damage with an AoE weapon.

And I've never seen a Fighter actually have a golf bag of magic weapons.  Why in the world would they do that?  Get a Shadow Striking weapon and be done with it, or just do enough damage that DR isn't a serious issue.

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Nachofan99

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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #67 on: August 09, 2009, 11:30:53 PM »
About the "precision  based" or "targeting the vitals" aspect of sneak attack damage, someone else on the boards said it perfectly: Flask of Acid to the FACE/EYES going to be a lot more brutal than to the arm/leg.

I see no reason it can't.

Bozwevial

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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #68 on: August 09, 2009, 11:32:46 PM »
Fireball doesn't require an attack roll, which is a requirement for sneak attack.  But yes, though by RAW it does work (damage and an attack roll are all you actually need), a lot of DMs will balk at the idea of doing precision damage with an AoE weapon.

 :facepalm

Silly me, that's right. That's why, for example, the Spellwarp Sniper exists. Wow, I feel foolish now.

Vinom

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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #69 on: August 09, 2009, 11:35:05 PM »
Fireball doesn't require an attack roll, which is a requirement for sneak attack.  But yes, though by RAW it does work (damage and an attack roll are all you actually need), a lot of DMs will balk at the idea of doing precision damage with an AoE weapon.

 :facepalm

Silly me, that's right. That's why, for example, the Spellwarp Sniper exists. Wow, I feel foolish now.
Wait... could I sneak attack with those elemental orb spells?
A player once asked me if there was any way to make a Tarrasque more evil... 3 sessions later he was stoned with D20s as the PC led an exidus out of the path of a Dire Tarrasque of Legendary Wonder.

Quote from:  Sarda the Sage
You're a quick thinker and spiteful, I can respect that. You won't be killed, Bikke

Never trust a smiling laughing chuckling grinning emotionless drunk, you know what Never Trust a DM!

78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature

Pulling off Pun-pun in 26 rounds

N00bs, because all gamers have to start somewhere

"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from Science!"

Remember, Mobs are at least as stupid as their dumbest member.

Anklebite

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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #70 on: August 09, 2009, 11:38:25 PM »
Wait... could I sneak attack with those elemental orb spells?

of course.
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chaos_redefined

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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #71 on: August 09, 2009, 11:40:16 PM »
I've always imagined it as throwing the flask such that the acid hits an area that the glass happens to cut slightly, or hitting a section that's already cut.  About as unrealistic as hitting the kidneys, in my opinion.

Anklebite

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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #72 on: August 09, 2009, 11:43:34 PM »
ever had a thrown beer bottle hit you in the temple? while full? it would be something like that. its still a touch attack, as aiming for the head doesn't care if you have full plate or chitin; the liquid fire/acid will still pour into vital spots.  but, if you are going to bring up the fact that aiming precisely should be harder than aiming normally, shouldn't rogues always get a penalty to sneak attacks?
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Samb

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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #73 on: August 09, 2009, 11:57:02 PM »
ever had a thrown beer bottle hit you in the temple? while full? it would be something like that. its still a touch attack, as aiming for the head doesn't care if you have full plate or chitin; the liquid fire/acid will still pour into vital spots.  but, if you are going to bring up the fact that aiming precisely should be harder than aiming normally, shouldn't rogues always get a penalty to sneak attacks?
This actually made a lot of sense.  But what about everyone around your target?  Will they have to suffer for you "precision"?

Anklebite

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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #74 on: August 10, 2009, 12:12:37 AM »
This actually made a lot of sense.  But what about everyone around your target?  Will they have to suffer for you "precision"?

ofc not, you didn't get an attack roll against them.
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JaronK

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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #75 on: August 10, 2009, 12:39:23 AM »
Actually it's a touch attack precisely because it's not about the impact of the flask (that would be a standard attack roll) but because the fluid splashes onto the target and hurts them.  It's decidedly not the flask.  Basically, it's throwing acid in their eyes, since little else makes any sense.  Again, by RAW it's legal, but some DMs may balk.

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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #76 on: August 10, 2009, 04:50:14 AM »
Then again, many DMs whine about Tome of Battle.

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lans

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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #77 on: August 10, 2009, 05:06:29 AM »
Even more whine about people using alterself to get sorcerer casting 4 above your character level.

Also, did anybody read my wintermask rogue outline? I think its more viable than flask thrower at lower levels. At higher it can go the flask route or winter mask when it can.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2009, 05:08:05 AM by lans »
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JaronK

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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #78 on: August 10, 2009, 05:41:08 AM »
Then again, many DMs whine about Tome of Battle.

Which is quite true, but it also means that as a rule, one shouldn't assume ToB is allowed (even though I think it darn well should be!).  I'm not saying that potion throwers shouldn't be allowed, just that they sometimes may not be (and that they probably aren't worth playing anyway, and certainly shouldn't be given as an example of how Rogues are generally played).

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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #79 on: August 10, 2009, 07:16:20 AM »
Just a few more points:

WBL assume you have a certain amount to spend every level on consumables. Also, WBL assumes that no matter what you do, you end up with WBL. So basically if you don't, your DM would have to allow you to catch up, or reduce CR on the encounters, because without WBL your effective level is lowered.

If I were a DM I would houserule spellcaster requirements away from Acid and Alchemist's fire. But that's just me.

In the end I have to agree with Braithewaite that a rogue that ALSO throws potions is very viable, as long as he doesn't do it all the time. There is nothing wrong with blowing some cash on hard encounters.