Author Topic: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!  (Read 28664 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Braithwaite

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 155
    • Email
Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #140 on: August 12, 2009, 12:13:08 PM »
Actually, I looked at that before I posted. I checked ToB p39, where it talks about initiator level, and decided that he was probably using an extremely narrow reading of the word maneuver. Meh, no matter. I could take craven instead.

DerWille

  • That monkey with the orange ass cheeks
  • ****
  • Posts: 247
Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #141 on: August 12, 2009, 12:15:24 PM »
You can pick up Quick Draw from one of the PC Organizations in the PHB II. I think it's the sun one at your second level of it (Membership rank 5ish) gets you a nifty mstrwrk katana too (Potion money?)

JaronK

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4039
Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #142 on: August 12, 2009, 12:17:14 PM »
So, you need someone to glitterdust the dragon.  Big deal.  Dragons have the [Awesome] subtype, so you're kinda expected NOT to be able to solo them (seriously, in the same game test the dragon beats just about everyone every time at every level).  Still worth it.

I said nothing about soloing dragons.  Rogues have a very tough time just contributing against dragons, because the Dragon could usually take them out VERY fast, and their improved senses makes it almost impossible to get the drop on them (and thus land sneak attacks without flanking) without Darkstalker.  Glitterdusting a Dragon is not easy... the bastards have pretty darn good saves, and their Blindsense makes the possibility of retreating while blind and then returning later a reasonable plan.  But basically, a Rogue in a Dragon fight is more of a liability than an asset most of the time, unless they have a way of disappearing of the dragon's senses.

Quote
Only morons actually pay for weapons of speed:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bootsofSpeed

Morons and people who fight for more than 10 rounds a day.  Not everyone fights one or two quick encounters and then sleeps.  Some people actually have a few lead up fights and then a big fight that lasts a while, or deal with multiple waves of enemies (after all, single groups of enemies are just AoE bait, but waves force the casters to actually think).

Quote
They like totally are available to potion throwers.  Potion throwers already have rapidshot and everything.  Isn't it great how one great tactical option requires the same sort of feats as another tactical option?  It's almost like the potion rogue can do whatever is best against that particular opponent.  Almost like it's investing just a couple feats more to one round every creature close to his/her CR.  Almost like it's totally fucking viable.  And Craven?  It's really good.  For every rogue ever.  I would totally drop rapidshot for craven.  But hey, a rogue can have both!  Isn't that nice.  Dalkstalker is nice, but not really vital til high levels.

They can't have Splitting while throwing potions... you know what I meant.  Kaelik was saying that potion throwers had more attacks than any other traditional Rogue build, and I pointed out that any Rogue archer has more attacks if he has a Splitting bow.  And I've also been saying that having potions as a backup plan is a fine option, only that specializing in it is silly.  Are you actually here advocating being a potion throwing specialist while keeping the far superior Splitting bow in your backpack as a backup plan?  And wasting feats on TWF when your best combat option is that Splitting bow in your pack is a problem.

Once you have the Splitting bow, potion throwing is just not smart.  You said it yourself earlier, why are you pretending now that it makes sense to have a potion thrower with a Splitting bow?  Meanwhile, Kaelik keeps talking about taking Point Blank Shot, TWF, and Quickshot as his first few feats, and you know he's going to need Precise Shot too.  Plus ITWF and all that.  It's very feat intensive, which means taking feats like Craven later on.  As for Darkstalker, Darkmantles are what, CR 1?  So it's useful from the get go.

Quote
No, it's stupid.  There's a difference between high powered and stupid.  High powered is what druid is.  Taking weapon focus and lightning mace to use with an aptitude whatever the fuck is stupid because you're blowing feats for little effect.

You call doubling your attacks for a few feats stupid?  So, you're saying TWF is stupid?

Quote
An extra attack against full AC.  Watch me pretend to care.

You prefer an extra attack with a 20% miss chance?  Yehaw.

Quote
Yeah, so how does the bow rogue do better than the flask rogue again?  Aside from needing an additional magic item?    I'm not seeing it.  Mostly because the bow rogue is just a higher level potion rogue that is fighting a creature with a touch AC remotely close to his full AC.

More shots, fewer feats, more damage per shot, fewer immunities, less weight, viable from level 1 (though with sneak attack problems, as all ranged specialist Rogues have.  I've even seen some archer Rogues do the Martial Rogue variant for this reason).  Also higher bonus to hit, greater Range (when not sneak attacking or if you can use a bow with Sniper's Shot), and if swift action wands are okay, then a Wand of Wraithstrike lets you touch attack when you need while maintaining all the advantages above.

Again, we haven't seen a viable potion Rogue below level 10 (and even 10 is pushing the WBL a little hard).  You can do the Splitting Bow thing by 12, and you could have been a bow Rogue before then too (but Splitting is a big power break point, obviously).

Quote
Hypothetically speaking, you're playing from level 1 or have a GM that occasionally uses wind wall or a GM that occasionally uses sunder or a GM that occasionally uses any of the many things that just rape archers in the face?  Since you're a rogue, you want to be able to run up and stab them in the face (because that's what you're good at).

More things screw with potion Rogues (like, anything that could kill them if they got too close) then Archer Rogues (who can at least drop back and get decent, if not amazing, damage).  Archers also have less to worry about with Sunder than melees.

Quote
Yeah, an archer rogue flat out doesn't work til high level.  And then, we're still using the same feats as the potion rogue.  Watch me care.

Heck, Halfling Rogue 1 with a bow, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Craven, two flaws.  Works just fine, at level 1.  Sneak attack in the first round, and for a first level character your damage is just fine.  That's your idea of not working at level 1?  Also, notice me not taking Quickdraw (which I don't need, though I think an Eager bow would be nice) or the TWF line, thus freeing up a lot of feats.  Not the same feats as a potion Rogue, is it?

Quote
Edit: I noticed wraithstrike.  Yeah, wraithstrike is good.  If your DM hands you a wand of wraithstrike, you can totally just walk over to the store and buy some feycraft daggers.  You already have the TWF chain, so you're good to go.

Do you see where I'm going with this?  Potion rogues are also the same build as archery rogues and melee rogues.  The exact same build.

No.  That "rambling paragraph" you ignored pointed out why: potion Rogues are like Fighters who don't focus their feats.  Except they don't have enough feats to make that work.  Archers don't need the TWF line or Quickdraw.  Melee Rogues don't really need Quickdraw either, or the ranged feats.  Needing half as many feats is HUGE.  Plus, both get more value out of focusing on buying decent weapons than wasting money on enough potions to actually use them as a primary weapon.  Different feats + different tactics + different gear = different build.

In the end, potion Rogues made all the sacrifies and viability issues outlined in the OP, plus the bit about not getting access to nice weapon enchantments, and all they got was what they would have gotten out of a Wand of Wraithstrike used whenever the enemy has a particularly poor touch AC.  Lame.

JaronK

JaronK

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4039
Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #143 on: August 12, 2009, 12:29:55 PM »
Actually, I looked at that before I posted. I checked ToB p39, where it talks about initiator level, and decided that he was probably using an extremely narrow reading of the word maneuver. Meh, no matter. I could take craven instead.

I qualified for the manuevers because a 6th level Rogue has an initiator level of 3, just enough for second level manuevers.  By taking the Shadow Hands I got one manuever from the Shadow Hand school, allowing me to take Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance).

And I don't think the Rogue I posted was a strawman at all.  I just went with the information given.  Kaelik said potion Rogues get more attacks than any other kind of Rogue, so I assumed he was going for as many attacks as possible (or his statement would have been rediculously untrue).  He himself gave the example of a Halfling with the racial sub level taking two flaws at level one and getting Point Blank Shot, Quick Draw, and TWF.  He also repeatedly talked about how he'd get a Wand of Gravestrike, and that he'd have all three kinds of potions (and enough to make good use of them).  Furthermore, he made clear that he intended to use a huge number of books.  At the very least, you need Spell Compendium or Complete Arcane for Gravestrike itself, Rules Compendium for Swift Action Wands to exist, Races of the Wild for that Halfling substitution, Core for obvious reasons, and whereever Wand Bracers are from (Eberron I think?).  So we've got a heck of a lot of books allowed already. 

But there's nothing wrong with using another build, though I believe this was specifically talking about Rogues (so best to avoid the Assassin PrC).    Your Marrulurk didn't qualify for Assassin's Stance (you've got an ECL of 6, but you'd need 6 HD), and I'm not a fan of using monster races with high ECLs and low amount of class levels when we're trying to talk about how a class works, you know?  Black Ethergaunt Fighter 1 is not a good example of how a Fighter works, for example. 

JaronK

TheWordSlinger

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 492
  • Nunc est bibendum
    • Email
Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #144 on: August 12, 2009, 12:37:11 PM »
3rd level, Assassin's Stance is.
Currently playing:
Forte Lulz, Chaotic EVIL Bard bent on world domination;
Canere Potentia, to sing of power.
Aralaxax, Warforged Osteomancer, Machines are my people, I wield bones as other wield swords.
Randall Gray, she's not sexually confused, honest!
Zion "I can make followers, but why bother when people line up for me?"
Currently DMing: Real Men Use Their Hands, World's Largest Dungeon
"If you can pretend to be a half-orc barbarian or a dwarf wizard then you can pretend to be an alpha male."-Ninjarabbit
"The hotel shop only had two decent books, and I'd written both of them."-Douglas Adams
"It's funny how the Earth never opens up and swallows you when you want it to." Xander Harris, Buffy the Vampire Slayer

Braithwaite

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 155
    • Email
Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #145 on: August 12, 2009, 01:06:35 PM »

I qualified for the manuevers because a 6th level Rogue has an initiator level of 3, just enough for second level manuevers.  By taking the Shadow Hands I got one manuever from the Shadow Hand school, allowing me to take Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance).

And I don't think the Rogue I posted was a strawman at all.  I just went with the information given.  Kaelik said potion Rogues get more attacks than any other kind of Rogue, so I assumed he was going for as many attacks as possible (or his statement would have been rediculously untrue).  He himself gave the example of a Halfling with the racial sub level taking two flaws at level one and getting Point Blank Shot, Quick Draw, and TWF.  He also repeatedly talked about how he'd get a Wand of Gravestrike, and that he'd have all three kinds of potions (and enough to make good use of them).  Furthermore, he made clear that he intended to use a huge number of books.  At the very least, you need Spell Compendium or Complete Arcane for Gravestrike itself, Rules Compendium for Swift Action Wands to exist, Races of the Wild for that Halfling substitution, Core for obvious reasons, and whereever Wand Bracers are from (Eberron I think?).  So we've got a heck of a lot of books allowed already. 

But there's nothing wrong with using another build, though I believe this was specifically talking about Rogues (so best to avoid the Assassin PrC).    Your Marrulurk didn't qualify for Assassin's Stance (you've got an ECL of 6, but you'd need 6 HD), and I'm not a fan of using monster races with high ECLs and low amount of class levels when we're trying to talk about how a class works, you know?  Black Ethergaunt Fighter 1 is not a good example of how a Fighter works, for example. 

JaronK

Aye, Assassin's Stance, being level 3, would require 10 HD.

You set the level range fairly low. If you had said level 10, or level 20, I would still have started with the same build. At level 10, it is no longer High ECL, low class levels. It is just how I would start a thrower with all books allowed.

Arguing that it has to be a straight rogue build is just making stuff up. A Favored Soul takes a level of Cleric or a prestige class to get his turn attempts. A potion rogue takes a level of Assassin or Spellthief to give himself the spells he needs while advancing his sneak attack. I think that most players would look at assassin as an obvious extension of rogue. Honestly, I think of Daring Outlaw as a rogue build, even though it mostly advances swashbuckler, because it is a sneak attack driven high skill point lightly armored warrior with rogue levels. You say that this debate isn't about the tier system, but by trying to hold it to single classed characters you remove the builds that are actually likely to see play. I have actually never seen a single classed rogue over level 5 played by a player with any optimization at all.

If your argument is that single classed rogue potion throwers are not as effective as single class melee rogues with certain sets of allowable books, I will concede that that is true, but not very meaningful.

If your argument is that rogue based, sneak attack driven, potion throwing builds are not viable, in core or with heavy optimization, you have to let all that junk in.

The Lurker

  • That monkey with the orange ass cheeks
  • ****
  • Posts: 258
Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #146 on: August 12, 2009, 04:01:59 PM »
So, you need someone to glitterdust the dragon.  Big deal.  Dragons have the [Awesome] subtype, so you're kinda expected NOT to be able to solo them (seriously, in the same game test the dragon beats just about everyone every time at every level).  Still worth it.

I said nothing about soloing dragons.  Rogues have a very tough time just contributing against dragons, because the Dragon could usually take them out VERY fast, and their improved senses makes it almost impossible to get the drop on them (and thus land sneak attacks without flanking) without Darkstalker.  Glitterdusting a Dragon is not easy... the bastards have pretty darn good saves, and their Blindsense makes the possibility of retreating while blind and then returning later a reasonable plan.  But basically, a Rogue in a Dragon fight is more of a liability than an asset most of the time, unless they have a way of disappearing of the dragon's senses.
JaronK, even wizards seriously lose against dragons most of the time under the same game test.  You don't face dragons alone.  Period.  Because dragons are Better Than You(TM).  Druid is the only class I can think of offhand that actually beats dragons in the same game test.  Having trouble against a dragon is normal.  Having an option to actually hit it is good.  Dragons have More Hit Dice Than You And 6+Int Skills and casting, so withough several magic items, rogues *can't* sneak up on them (seriously a juvenile black dragon has 13 HD and is a book CR 7; if your DM doesn't take into account the [Awesome] subtype, you're facing him at level 7).  Darkstalker just makes the problem worse because you're going from Dex+Racial vs Wis+Racial+6 to Dex+Racial-10 vs Wis+Racial+6

Do you see how you have to garner up +16 in move silently bonuses between your dex beating the dragon's wisdom and racial bonuses just to stay on the RNG?  Darkstalker doesn't help much because dragons will just spot you.


Dragons are hard.  Having the ability to damage them at all is a good thing.
Quote
Quote
Only morons actually pay for weapons of speed:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bootsofSpeed

Morons and people who fight for more than 10 rounds a day.  Not everyone fights one or two quick encounters and then sleeps.  Some people actually have a few lead up fights and then a big fight that lasts a while, or deal with multiple waves of enemies (after all, single groups of enemies are just AoE bait, but waves force the casters to actually think).
Ok, the whole point of the flask rogue is that you one (two for outliers) round creatures even close to your CR.  A flask rogue never spends more than two rounds of any combat full attacking.  4 encounters a day times 2 rounds per encounter is 8 rounds of haste a day.  That leaves you two extra rounds for surprises.  More if you do your job right and actually kill your enemy on the full attack.  Against waves of enemies, the flask rogue looks to the party druid and says "Entangle please" (or wizard casts EBT or solid fog, but in any case if there are ever more than 4 enemies on the field someone better be tossing down some battlefield control).  If the enemies aren't coming all at once that means the flask rogue doesn't even need haste because they are CR<Character Level and he rapes them without it.
Quote
Quote
They like totally are available to potion throwers.  Potion throwers already have rapidshot and everything.  Isn't it great how one great tactical option requires the same sort of feats as another tactical option?  It's almost like the potion rogue can do whatever is best against that particular opponent.  Almost like it's investing just a couple feats more to one round every creature close to his/her CR.  Almost like it's totally fucking viable.  And Craven?  It's really good.  For every rogue ever.  I would totally drop rapidshot for craven.  But hey, a rogue can have both!  Isn't that nice.  Dalkstalker is nice, but not really vital til high levels.

They can't have Splitting while throwing potions... you know what I meant.  Kaelik was saying that potion throwers had more attacks than any other traditional Rogue build, and I pointed out that any Rogue archer has more attacks if he has a Splitting bow.  And I've also been saying that having potions as a backup plan is a fine option, only that specializing in it is silly.  Are you actually here advocating being a potion throwing specialist while keeping the far superior Splitting bow in your backpack as a backup plan?  And wasting feats on TWF when your best combat option is that Splitting bow in your pack is a problem.
Liek, omg.  An obscure (yes, I consider champions of ruin obscure because I haven't seen it sold in stores anywhere around here and downloaded the PDF only after I heard about splitting via the CO boards) source doubles the bow rogue's attacks?  Cool.  When the flask rogue can afford it, he can totally just be a bow rogue too against the enemies without much Armor+Shield+Na.  Of course, against most enemies you care about (dragons and outsiders are the hardest enemies at any given CR), you'll probably get more damage (because you're getting 95% accuracy and not 30-60%).  But it's totally the exact same build.  Seriously, there's no difference in the build between a bow rogue and a flask rogue.  A bow rogue is just a flask rogue that got his hands on a splitting bow and is fighting a certain type of enemy (touch AC close to full AC).
Quote
Once you have the Splitting bow, potion throwing is just not smart.  You said it yourself earlier, why are you pretending now that it makes sense to have a potion thrower with a Splitting bow?  Meanwhile, Kaelik keeps talking about taking Point Blank Shot, TWF, and Quickshot as his first few feats, and you know he's going to need Precise Shot too.  Plus ITWF and all that.  It's very feat intensive, which means taking feats like Craven later on.  As for Darkstalker, Darkmantles are what, CR 1?  So it's useful from the get go.
When you're throwing potions, you are attacking touch AC.  You seriously can just eat up the -4 to hit and still hit almost every time.  If you're using the bow, that's what the Precise (MIC) enchant is for.  ITWF comes in an item (which is dirt cheap for the effect).  Take a look at SDK's example.  It misses a FEW things, but that's a totally legit example of what we're talking about.
Quote
Quote
No, it's stupid.  There's a difference between high powered and stupid.  High powered is what druid is.  Taking weapon focus and lightning mace to use with an aptitude whatever the fuck is stupid because you're blowing feats for little effect.

You call doubling your attacks for a few feats stupid?  So, you're saying TWF is stupid?
Quote from: Lighting Mace
Prerequisite: Combat Reflexes, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (light mace).
Benefit: Whenever you roll a threat on an attack roll while using a light mace in each hand, you gain an additional attack at that same attack bonus.
Yes, spending 3 feats you wouldn't get otherwise to increase your attacks by a maximum of 43% (Keen weapon with 18-20 natural threat range 30%+9%+3%+1%) is stupid because you're still attacking full AC and reliable attacks are more important to the rogue than proc attacks.   The whole point of the flask rogue is to one round things.  Lightning mace is a waste of time on a character with lots of bonus damage because they one round basically anything anyways.  Those three feats are better spent by increasing attack rate by 40% all the time with the TWF line.
Quote
Quote
An extra attack against full AC.  Watch me pretend to care.

You prefer an extra attack with a 20% miss chance?  Yehaw.
Yeah, you could totally houserule that blink applies to thrown weapons.  Now watch me roll up a wizard that casts Balor nimbus and hits throws spears for an extra 6d6 fire damage at level 3.  Spell effects apply to your person and items you are wearing/holding.  Projectiles leave your person.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reducePerson.htm
Yes, there's precedent.  And even if your DM is a total dick, you can still pick up mage slayer and pierce magical protection by the time you're using blink.  You have the feats for it (since so many of the feats you need can come in item form).
Quote
Quote
Yeah, so how does the bow rogue do better than the flask rogue again?  Aside from needing an additional magic item?    I'm not seeing it.  Mostly because the bow rogue is just a higher level potion rogue that is fighting a creature with a touch AC remotely close to his full AC.

More shots, fewer feats, more damage per shot, fewer immunities, less weight, viable from level 1 (though with sneak attack problems, as all ranged specialist Rogues have.  I've even seen some archer Rogues do the Martial Rogue variant for this reason).  Also higher bonus to hit, greater Range (when not sneak attacking or if you can use a bow with Sniper's Shot), and if swift action wands are okay, then a Wand of Wraithstrike lets you touch attack when you need while maintaining all the advantages above.
Show me the build and I'll tell you why it sucks.  Wraithstrike is melee only (and you already have all the melee feats on a potion chucker anyways).
Quote
Again, we haven't seen a viable potion Rogue below level 10 (and even 10 is pushing the WBL a little hard).  You can do the Splitting Bow thing by 12, and you could have been a bow Rogue before then too (but Splitting is a big power break point, obviously).
Level 1, the potion chucker throws daggers for 1d4+1+2d6 damage 2 times per round at a higher end bonus than the level 1 melee rogue (due to weapon finesse not kicking in til 3).

Level 6, the potion rogue tosses 3 daggers a round while the melee rogue has 2 attacks a round (the dagger thrower has like -2 range penalty and -2 rapidshot, but he's a halfling with a racial bonus to thrown attacks and gets one extra attack a round anyways, so it's basically a wash).

How "Not viable" is this?
Quote
Quote
Hypothetically speaking, you're playing from level 1 or have a GM that occasionally uses wind wall or a GM that occasionally uses sunder or a GM that occasionally uses any of the many things that just rape archers in the face?  Since you're a rogue, you want to be able to run up and stab them in the face (because that's what you're good at).

More things screw with potion Rogues (like, anything that could kill them if they got too close) then Archer Rogues (who can at least drop back and get decent, if not amazing, damage).  Archers also have less to worry about with Sunder than melees.
There is nothing in the entire game that you can be safe from at 30' rather than 20' or 10'.  You're in charge range.  Unless you're subsiding entirely on sniper's shot (in which case you're attacking full AC and will be taking range penalties to be out of charge range).  It's not that impressive.  Furthermore, this is still the exact same build as the flask rogue (rapidshot; we don't care about precise because our allies aren't 400 feet ahead of us anyways).  And yes, archers are gimped by sunder more than anyone else because bows are expensive at lower levels and that splitting bow will set you back a LOT if it gets sundered.  The potion rogue uses weapons that are completely expendable.  The lower level dagger thrower is just buying a bunch of mundane daggers, so if someone uses an action to destroy 2 gp he's happy because that's an attack that didn't hit (keep in mind that 15 gp will only heal like 11 damage, so he's coming ahead of wands of lesser vigor here).
Quote
Quote
Yeah, an archer rogue flat out doesn't work til high level.  And then, we're still using the same feats as the potion rogue.  Watch me care.

Heck, Halfling Rogue 1 with a bow, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Craven, two flaws.  Works just fine, at level 1.  Sneak attack in the first round, and for a first level character your damage is just fine.  That's your idea of not working at level 1?  Also, notice me not taking Quickdraw (which I don't need, though I think an Eager bow would be nice) or the TWF line, thus freeing up a lot of feats.  Not the same feats as a potion Rogue, is it?
You need to get within 30' to sneak attack.  You also need to trigger dex denial somehow.  The dagger thrower is pretty much better at level 1 all the time (yes, he could have craven too.  I don't really care about craven because on the games that allow it, the potion rogue says "Y'know, I think I'll up my damage output per shot by 30% at no penalty and just take rapidshot in a couple levels).
Quote
Quote
Edit: I noticed wraithstrike.  Yeah, wraithstrike is good.  If your DM hands you a wand of wraithstrike, you can totally just walk over to the store and buy some feycraft daggers.  You already have the TWF chain, so you're good to go.

Do you see where I'm going with this?  Potion rogues are also the same build as archery rogues and melee rogues.  The exact same build.

No.  That "rambling paragraph" you ignored pointed out why: potion Rogues are like Fighters who don't focus their feats.  Except they don't have enough feats to make that work.  Archers don't need the TWF line or Quickdraw.  Melee Rogues don't really need Quickdraw either, or the ranged feats.  Needing half as many feats is HUGE.  Plus, both get more value out of focusing on buying decent weapons than wasting money on enough potions to actually use them as a primary weapon.  Different feats + different tactics + different gear = different build.
Are you joking?  Rogues get bonus damage.  Getting more attacks to use that bonus damage is the whole point.
Quote
In the end, potion Rogues made all the sacrifies and viability issues outlined in the OP, plus the bit about not getting access to nice weapon enchantments, and all they got was what they would have gotten out of a Wand of Wraithstrike used whenever the enemy has a particularly poor touch AC.  Lame.

JaronK
In the end, you clearly suck at making rogues.  Like, hardcore.

@Everyone Else:  Y'know what's really cool?  Getting an aptitude (or skillful, whichever one grants you proficiency) gnome quickrazor and putting half ranks into Iajutsu Focus.  Because that's like one skill and one item away from almost doubling the damage any time you don't have a splitting bow or need to make touch attacks to hit.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2009, 04:08:48 PM by The Lurker »

The Lurker

  • That monkey with the orange ass cheeks
  • ****
  • Posts: 258
Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #147 on: August 12, 2009, 04:06:37 PM »
Arguing that it has to be a straight rogue build is just making stuff up. A Favored Soul takes a level of Cleric or a prestige class to get his turn attempts. A potion rogue takes a level of Assassin or Spellthief to give himself the spells he needs while advancing his sneak attack. I think that most players would look at assassin as an obvious extension of rogue. Honestly, I think of Daring Outlaw as a rogue build, even though it mostly advances swashbuckler, because it is a sneak attack driven high skill point lightly armored warrior with rogue levels. You say that this debate isn't about the tier system, but by trying to hold it to single classed characters you remove the builds that are actually likely to see play. I have actually never seen a single classed rogue over level 5 played by a player with any optimization at all.
Actually, I've been using straight rogue because a straight rogue can pick up Perfect Two Weapon Fighting or the Crippling Strike ability at level 10.  I mean, even if your DM says "No, you can't have PTWF because TWF is overpowered enough as it is" you can still pick up crippling strike and with savvy rogue from complete scoundrel you can str damage nearly any creature until they can be captured even if they have something like heavy fortification armor (which there isn't much way around except penetrating strike for half or a dispel magic).

Because Crippling strike is fucking sweet.

Alastar

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1028
    • Email
Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #148 on: August 12, 2009, 04:23:38 PM »
So yeah, i didn't read most of that brick of text, mainly because i found so many flaws on your first post that i couldn't go on reading.

Let's adress only one thought:

Any potion rogue will have the fight over in 2 rounds!

.....  why?

Little scenario:
A group of ennemies starts 60 ft. away from you, you go first, you rush forward to 30 ft.  throw a flask, you do some damage, not enough to kill most things, whatever your level is (no str, no dex, only sneak attack, your not going to kill anything but some innapropriate ECL with that throw)

Everyone else acts.

Your turn, no one is flat footed, you have your ring of blinking, you make 5 attacks (or so) you miss on 1 due to 20% miss chance, you miss on another due to a low roll, you hit 3 times, if you're lucky, that guy you hit on the first round is dead, and maybe one of his friends are injured.

That's assuming everyone left you alone after first round.

Or is that too logical for you to consider in your grand scheme?

The Lurker

  • That monkey with the orange ass cheeks
  • ****
  • Posts: 258
Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #149 on: August 12, 2009, 04:37:12 PM »
So yeah, i didn't read most of that brick of text, mainly because i found so many flaws on your first post that i couldn't go on reading.
You're stupid and you should feel stupid.  Just, so you know.
Quote
Let's adress only one thought:

Any potion rogue will have the fight over in 2 rounds!
Straw man.  I said a rogue shouldn't be full attacking more than two rounds of combat.  I've even explained what happens in the outliers.
Quote
.....  why?

Little scenario:
A group of ennemies starts 60 ft. away from you, you go first, you rush forward to 30 ft.  throw a flask, you do some damage, not enough to kill most things, whatever your level is (no str, no dex, only sneak attack, your not going to kill anything but some innapropriate ECL with that throw)
Or you just delay so that the party wizard can take a move action and then move you with a quickened benign transposition (because my wizards always prepare a couple).  Or you just pounce them with gnome quickrazors and Iajutsu Focus.  I mean, there's several ways to do it.  Dorjes of hustle, Anklets of Translocation, Belts of Battle, Chronocharm of the horizon walker, etc.  So, yeah.  The rogue SHOULD in fact use one of his many ways to close that distance and full attack (pounce+gnome quickrazor+IF+SA for the lazy guys, boots of speed+chronocharm+potion chucking for slightly harder).
Quote
Everyone else acts.

Your turn, no one is flat footed, you have your ring of blinking, you make 5 attacks (or so) you miss on 1 due to 20% miss chance, you miss on another due to a low roll, you hit 3 times, if you're lucky, that guy you hit on the first round is dead, and maybe one of his friends are injured.
I've already shown above that the miss chance doesn't apply to ranged attacks and even if your DM says it does, you can take pierce magical concealment.  Or one of those gloves that gives your weapons the seeking ability.  Whichever.  And the guy is in fact dead because we're attacking touch AC and making as many attacks as the TWF rogue plus one more.
Quote
That's assuming everyone left you alone after first round.

Or is that too logical for you to consider in your grand scheme?
You also clearly suck at making rogues.

Alastar

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1028
    • Email
Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #150 on: August 12, 2009, 04:44:29 PM »
Hahahahahhaa


Ok ok, i'll take everyone's advice and stop posting here, this is getting ridiculous :)

But it's so entertaining!

It's like arguing the existence of god with a priest!

...

Ok, most priests i did that with were less adamant about the subject too, so it's not that much of a comparison....

The Lurker

  • That monkey with the orange ass cheeks
  • ****
  • Posts: 258
Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #151 on: August 12, 2009, 04:50:11 PM »
Hahahahahhaa


Ok ok, i'll take everyone's advice and stop posting here, this is getting ridiculous :)

But it's so entertaining!

It's like arguing the existence of god with a priest!

...

Ok, most priests i did that with were less adamant about the subject too, so it's not that much of a comparison....
Would you like to make a thread about theology?  I like discussing that too.

Edit: BTW, you forgot to refute any of my points.

Anklebite

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2009
  • I shall play you the song of my people.
Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #152 on: August 12, 2009, 04:57:11 PM »
I've already shown above that the miss chance doesn't apply to ranged attacks and even if your DM says it does, you can take pierce magical concealment.  Or one of those gloves that gives your weapons the seeking ability.

Im pretty sure that the miss chance in the blink description is an dfinite "20% miss chance for ALL attacks", as the SFX is that missed attacks occur on the ethereal plane. your listed options to get around that miss chance are good, but you definitively need to use one of them.  the "precedent" in enlarge/reduce person apply to enlarge/reduce, with a specific listed SFX of "the missile returns to original size" after launching. however, firing an attack on to the ethereal plane just means it keeps going, on a different plane of exsistance (since you fired the shot ON THAT PLANE). by both RAW and RAI, there is a miss chance. the RAI is the obvious stuff. the RAW is the "on ALL ATTACKS" part of the miss chance. regardless of what it says under personal spells and projectiles, this is a specific override clause.

oh, and he didn't refute because he cannot be arsed to continue the argument.  :P
I do not suffer from paranoia; I enjoy every second of it.
Pioneer of the Ultimate Magus + Sublime Chord + Ultimate Magus combo

The Lurker

  • That monkey with the orange ass cheeks
  • ****
  • Posts: 258
Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #153 on: August 12, 2009, 05:07:30 PM »
I've already shown above that the miss chance doesn't apply to ranged attacks and even if your DM says it does, you can take pierce magical concealment.  Or one of those gloves that gives your weapons the seeking ability.

Im pretty sure that the miss chance in the blink description is an dfinite "20% miss chance for ALL attacks", as the SFX is that missed attacks occur on the ethereal plane. your listed options to get around that miss chance are good, but you definitively need to use one of them.  the "precedent" in enlarge/reduce person apply to enlarge/reduce, with a specific listed SFX of "the missile returns to original size" after launching. however, firing an attack on to the ethereal plane just means it keeps going, on a different plane of exsistance (since you fired the shot ON THAT PLANE). by both RAW and RAI, there is a miss chance. the RAI is the obvious stuff. the RAW is the "on ALL ATTACKS" part of the miss chance. regardless of what it says under personal spells and projectiles, this is a specific override clause.

oh, and he didn't refute because he cannot be arsed to continue the argument.  :P
Yeah, if there was a ring of greater blinking (PH2 or SC, don't remember which) it would be better than just blink.  But really, if you're attacking flatfooted (because you only attack when you can get SA) touch AC (flasks), you're going to have a much higher hit rate anyways so can probably afford to just miss 20% of the time.  All in all, it's a pretty moot point (especially considering that greater blink isn't the only way to trigger sneak attack).

Anklebite

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2009
  • I shall play you the song of my people.
Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #154 on: August 12, 2009, 05:35:59 PM »
also, isn't there a clause under SA about miss chances negating it? or was that just concealment?
I do not suffer from paranoia; I enjoy every second of it.
Pioneer of the Ultimate Magus + Sublime Chord + Ultimate Magus combo

The Lurker

  • That monkey with the orange ass cheeks
  • ****
  • Posts: 258
Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #155 on: August 12, 2009, 05:40:23 PM »
also, isn't there a clause under SA about miss chances negating it? or was that just concealment?
Explicitly concealment, so ring of blinking is legit.

Anklebite

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2009
  • I shall play you the song of my people.
Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #156 on: August 12, 2009, 05:43:04 PM »
fair enough, but imo, if you need a ring of blinking to get in sneak attacks as a rogue, you aren't trying very hard.... coming up with unique ways to make your opponent flat footed is half the fun!
I do not suffer from paranoia; I enjoy every second of it.
Pioneer of the Ultimate Magus + Sublime Chord + Ultimate Magus combo

Judging Eagle

  • Domesticated Capuchin Monkey
  • **
  • Posts: 90
Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #157 on: August 12, 2009, 08:26:58 PM »
Well, there's two ways to interpret Blink; either things affect you and your carried equipment, or they always affect everything that you've carried.

Blink

Target is Personal

Targets

Personal Spells target: You

Blink is pretty unclear. I'd say that as soon as "you" aren't holding something, it's no longer something that you're able to affect with your spells. Holy Sword, or Ice Axe or Enlarge person are much more specific spells; and most spells with personal buffs that affect equipment don't seem to continue to affect equipment once an item is dropped, but will affect an item once it is picked up.

If a character can take their ring of Blinking off, and be on the Ethereal plane, sans ring; then the case for objects dropped/thrown/fired being stuck in the Ethereal 20% of the time could be made. I'm not sure if people want this thought. The last time this argument came up, grappling a rogue with the ring on, and removing it were discussed; as were the ability to use the ring to travel to the Ethereal plane, easier than using a spell.

Most people don't want the rogues to just -stay- on the  Ethereal plane as long as they want, but that's what "flasks stay ethereal" argument allows.


The Fighter in question is not the core fighter (I'd probably play The Bear of the North before I play a PhB fighter, that gives quad-threat right there), nor is it of course, a straight fighter (Feat Rogue1/Dungenomicon Monk1/"Bards Suck" Bard1/RoW Fighter 16/Ginaz Blade Fighter 1). Instead it was something that the DM placed as material for all the players to pick from in her level 20+ campaign. Everyone had equal access to classes, I just used what was allowed (and had been approved by the DM, or even created by them, for several years now).

Basically this character uses feats designed to bring full BaB classes on par to being able to face equal level monsters; as well as a fighter that is meant to be taken all the way to level 20 and not get Juggled by a Balor.

Trust me when I say player knowledge and ability is a pretty big part. I "could" have just written "Wizard" on my character sheet (and, often, that's what do). This time I decided to do something difficult, and made a character that wouldn't have a problem with most aspects of the game, and would be able to approach any part of the game without my having to sweat too much.

The other players, with the same options.... well.... suck.

The other players have things like a Paragon Drow (high stats, very high stats overall; few actual abilities though); a Satyr Paladin/Cleric/Some Custom PrC; a CR 19 Shadow Dragon (CR 20 when given PC gear, and able to rebuild all skills and feats); some Nymph/Coatl hybrid cleric-type thing.

Among the 3 that could potentially be powerful (the casters/dragon), none of them really are. They don't have good spell selections; they don't have the raw damage per round (the raw damage per attack that this 'fighter' deals is greater than any of the other character's damage per round; they seriously swing for piddly shit, and don't even have that many attacks per round either; it would take at least). I think that one of them is a persistent Divine Spellcaster; and even then they're not impressive by any stretch of the imagination.

Me and the DM have agreed that when they do want to challenge me, they'll tell me ahead of time; the rest of the time my job is to sandbag or play "papa wolf" for the other PCs (whether they know it or not is an other story). I'll seriously spend more time casting Mass Cure Light Wounds and Dimension Door to move the party around. If an other PC really does get threatened will I do anything that will be very notable. Right now, the game is still in Intros and Mission briefing, and I'm already able to detect thoughts all of the other PCs (I mean seriously Level 20 play, and non of them have mind-protection like nondetectionp).

Last I recall, this fighter was able to break the game over it's knee in terms of:
-skills (retroactive skill points were allowed, and this is an Int-based fighter; however even then, it has 480 skill points assigned, and no skills are cross-class due to multi-classing)
-attack rolls (auto-hits AC 49 before a single buff is cast; hits AC 53, always counts as striking Flat-Footed AC; can accept a damage drop [changing from dX+60 x 8 attacks to dX+43 x 8 attack], and instead hits Touch ACs of 49-53)
-near spell immunity (Only SoDs with a DC of 52 need to be rolled against; +51 being the Saving throw modifier)
-a wide range of effect immunity (aging, instant death, drowning, fatigue, exhaustion, every single effect that Undead are immune to; plus a bunch more, I seriously forget most of this character's immunities)
-resistance to elemental damage (ER 30, all)
-acceptable DR (28/ 11 (adamantine) 17 (-))
-spell casting (cast any spell 8th level or lower, or 3rd level or lower from ranger/paladin spell lists, and 5th level or lower from Bard spell lists),

and a few other things, like

-damage (whatever weapon dice rolls are + 60; 8 times, reach is whatever weapons are equipped +10'; max reach is 35' out when medium; goes out to 50-60 feet depending on buffs chosen; all damage ignores Hardness/DR of all kinds, so punching the Tarrasque to death in two rounds is perfectly possible, and in fact hilarious; killing a Great Wyrm Red Dragon in 12 seconds is also "just an other day" for this character; since it's AC, damage, HP and sensory abilities aren't able to pose a insurmountable challenge) 
-ability to crowd control (spells; plus regular comabt: 14 AoOs, that can proc when squares are entered; every AoO allows a 5' step).

That's a rough list of what it can do. At last count, it's about 80 abilities that aren't from spells or class features; about 20 abilities from class features; and then whatever spells I decide to run by the DM and are approved (seeing as this character can beat the living daylights out of Efreeti, scrolls of Wish literally fill a bag of holding, and that's for when I don't feel like dumpster diving for 'spells that win encounters' (note: not 'spells that kill people', those have DCs, and DCs on scrolls are shit; with a staff though, my DCs are a minimum of 24; and a max of 32; not awesome, but decent enough)).

The character can seriously walk up to a lich spamming Quickened Enervation and Enervation and only take 5' steps the whole walk, then kill the Lich by dealing Level Drain attacks [Base UMD check of 56; Veil of Undeath; Spark of Vitality; Life-Drinker dagger/shortsword; 8 attacks per round; or just deal Weapon Dmg + 46 damage x8 per round [368 hp], then cast Soul Bind to finish the job; since it was killed, and not still undead yet, that's easy].

As well as do purely 'physical' challenges, like pummel an army of greater stone golems under his fists with no problem [Let's say... 50-100 CR 16 Greater Stone Golems] [Their damage won't break through his DR quickly; average damage rolls deal 3 points of damage to him, when his multiple layers of miss chance and invisibility are noticed, he's immune to crits; and he can grind down at least two per round using only his monk slam attacks; when his HP gets low enough, he has the Concentration checks to just pull out a scroll and cast a Hea on himself; none of the Golems can deal more than 60 damage to him in a single hit].

Of course, it's not a 'perfect' character. An uber-charger could do the trick (although, not necessarily; the character can pick up something in combat-time that completely stops a charger, then re-directs the damage; probably back at the charger); and Diety fighting is futile; but it's a decent quad-threat, and that was the idea; capable of surviving on their own; fill any holes in the party; or assist any other PC who is doing something.
Name kept out of inertia. Thirteen years and counting.

Anklebite

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2009
  • I shall play you the song of my people.
Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #158 on: August 12, 2009, 10:05:50 PM »

[spoiler]
Well, there's two ways to interpret Blink; either things affect you and your carried equipment, or they always affect everything that you've carried.

Blink

Target is Personal

Targets

Personal Spells target: You

Blink is pretty unclear. I'd say that as soon as "you" aren't holding something, it's no longer something that you're able to affect with your spells. Holy Sword, or Ice Axe or Enlarge person are much more specific spells; and most spells with personal buffs that affect equipment don't seem to continue to affect equipment once an item is dropped, but will affect an item once it is picked up.

If a character can take their ring of Blinking off, and be on the Ethereal plane, sans ring; then the case for objects dropped/thrown/fired being stuck in the Ethereal 20% of the time could be made. I'm not sure if people want this thought. The last time this argument came up, grappling a rogue with the ring on, and removing it were discussed; as were the ability to use the ring to travel to the Ethereal plane, easier than using a spell.

Most people don't want the rogues to just -stay- on the  Ethereal plane as long as they want, but that's what "flasks stay ethereal" argument allows.


The Fighter in question is not the core fighter (I'd probably play The Bear of the North before I play a PhB fighter, that gives quad-threat right there), nor is it of course, a straight fighter (Feat Rogue1/Dungenomicon Monk1/"Bards Suck" Bard1/RoW Fighter 16/Ginaz Blade Fighter 1). Instead it was something that the DM placed as material for all the players to pick from in her level 20+ campaign. Everyone had equal access to classes, I just used what was allowed (and had been approved by the DM, or even created by them, for several years now).

Basically this character uses feats designed to bring full BaB classes on par to being able to face equal level monsters; as well as a fighter that is meant to be taken all the way to level 20 and not get Juggled by a Balor.

Trust me when I say player knowledge and ability is a pretty big part. I "could" have just written "Wizard" on my character sheet (and, often, that's what do). This time I decided to do something difficult, and made a character that wouldn't have a problem with most aspects of the game, and would be able to approach any part of the game without my having to sweat too much.

The other players, with the same options.... well.... suck.

The other players have things like a Paragon Drow (high stats, very high stats overall; few actual abilities though); a Satyr Paladin/Cleric/Some Custom PrC; a CR 19 Shadow Dragon (CR 20 when given PC gear, and able to rebuild all skills and feats); some Nymph/Coatl hybrid cleric-type thing.

Among the 3 that could potentially be powerful (the casters/dragon), none of them really are. They don't have good spell selections; they don't have the raw damage per round (the raw damage per attack that this 'fighter' deals is greater than any of the other character's damage per round; they seriously swing for piddly shit, and don't even have that many attacks per round either; it would take at least). I think that one of them is a persistent Divine Spellcaster; and even then they're not impressive by any stretch of the imagination.

Me and the DM have agreed that when they do want to challenge me, they'll tell me ahead of time; the rest of the time my job is to sandbag or play "papa wolf" for the other PCs (whether they know it or not is an other story). I'll seriously spend more time casting Mass Cure Light Wounds and Dimension Door to move the party around. If an other PC really does get threatened will I do anything that will be very notable. Right now, the game is still in Intros and Mission briefing, and I'm already able to detect thoughts all of the other PCs (I mean seriously Level 20 play, and non of them have mind-protection like nondetectionp).

Last I recall, this fighter was able to break the game over it's knee in terms of:
-skills (retroactive skill points were allowed, and this is an Int-based fighter; however even then, it has 480 skill points assigned, and no skills are cross-class due to multi-classing)
-attack rolls (auto-hits AC 49 before a single buff is cast; hits AC 53, always counts as striking Flat-Footed AC; can accept a damage drop [changing from dX+60 x 8 attacks to dX+43 x 8 attack], and instead hits Touch ACs of 49-53)
-near spell immunity (Only SoDs with a DC of 52 need to be rolled against; +51 being the Saving throw modifier)
-a wide range of effect immunity (aging, instant death, drowning, fatigue, exhaustion, every single effect that Undead are immune to; plus a bunch more, I seriously forget most of this character's immunities)
-resistance to elemental damage (ER 30, all)
-acceptable DR (28/ 11 (adamantine) 17 (-))
-spell casting (cast any spell 8th level or lower, or 3rd level or lower from ranger/paladin spell lists, and 5th level or lower from Bard spell lists),

and a few other things, like

-damage (whatever weapon dice rolls are + 60; 8 times, reach is whatever weapons are equipped +10'; max reach is 35' out when medium; goes out to 50-60 feet depending on buffs chosen; all damage ignores Hardness/DR of all kinds, so punching the Tarrasque to death in two rounds is perfectly possible, and in fact hilarious; killing a Great Wyrm Red Dragon in 12 seconds is also "just an other day" for this character; since it's AC, damage, HP and sensory abilities aren't able to pose a insurmountable challenge) 
-ability to crowd control (spells; plus regular comabt: 14 AoOs, that can proc when squares are entered; every AoO allows a 5' step).

That's a rough list of what it can do. At last count, it's about 80 abilities that aren't from spells or class features; about 20 abilities from class features; and then whatever spells I decide to run by the DM and are approved (seeing as this character can beat the living daylights out of Efreeti, scrolls of Wish literally fill a bag of holding, and that's for when I don't feel like dumpster diving for 'spells that win encounters' (note: not 'spells that kill people', those have DCs, and DCs on scrolls are shit; with a staff though, my DCs are a minimum of 24; and a max of 32; not awesome, but decent enough)).

The character can seriously walk up to a lich spamming Quickened Enervation and Enervation and only take 5' steps the whole walk, then kill the Lich by dealing Level Drain attacks [Base UMD check of 56; Veil of Undeath; Spark of Vitality; Life-Drinker dagger/shortsword; 8 attacks per round; or just deal Weapon Dmg + 46 damage x8 per round [368 hp], then cast Soul Bind to finish the job; since it was killed, and not still undead yet, that's easy].

As well as do purely 'physical' challenges, like pummel an army of greater stone golems under his fists with no problem [Let's say... 50-100 CR 16 Greater Stone Golems] [Their damage won't break through his DR quickly; average damage rolls deal 3 points of damage to him, when his multiple layers of miss chance and invisibility are noticed, he's immune to crits; and he can grind down at least two per round using only his monk slam attacks; when his HP gets low enough, he has the Concentration checks to just pull out a scroll and cast a Hea on himself; none of the Golems can deal more than 60 damage to him in a single hit].

Of course, it's not a 'perfect' character. An uber-charger could do the trick (although, not necessarily; the character can pick up something in combat-time that completely stops a charger, then re-directs the damage; probably back at the charger); and Diety fighting is futile; but it's a decent quad-threat, and that was the idea; capable of surviving on their own; fill any holes in the party; or assist any other PC who is doing something.
[/spoiler]

interesting as that read was, it was pretty far off topic.....
I do not suffer from paranoia; I enjoy every second of it.
Pioneer of the Ultimate Magus + Sublime Chord + Ultimate Magus combo

JaronK

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4039
Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #159 on: August 12, 2009, 11:16:04 PM »
The far more obvious solution that actually follows the rules would be that your throw weapons stay Blinking until they're no longer your attacks, since your attacks have the 20% miss chance.  Thus, it blinks until it hits or misses, then it stops blinking.  Trying to bring specific logical definitions for magical effects is silly.  All we really know is there's a 20% miss chance... whether that's because the item is still blinking while it's in the air, or because you popping in and out of the ethereal makes it harder to throw and attack straight, or because the hand of Wee Jas comes down and snatches up 20% of the attacks doesn't matter.  But the miss chance is there, and it's a side effect of the spell, and that's really all there is to it.

And dear god, let's not even try the "Rogues ignore the PHB page 87 rules on feats" argument again.  No Perfect Two Weapon Fighting nonsense, please.

Anyway, I still wonder why we'd bother with this potion thing at all if wands are supposed to be prevalent enough to just use Gravestrike whenever, especially if we're also claiming that we never have to worry about more than two full rounds of attacks per combat.  If so, why isn't the Rogue just getting an Eternal Wand of Wraithstrike or two and then popping into melee where he can flank and thus get sneak attack without the miss chance?  I mean, two such wands is enough for four rounds of touch attacks per day anyway, and then you can still have enchanted weapons and some carrying capacity and all that.

JaronK