Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!

[skydragonknight]

Cons... and here's where it gets ugly.
*First of all, cost is a factor.  Your ammo costs 20gp per shot for fire damage, 10 gp for acid damage.  At low levels, this is a bank breaker.  Obviously at even lower mid levels it's fine.  But this just isn't viable at level 1. 

A Wildshape Ranger whose first feat is Alertness(for MoMF) is not very combat effective at levels 1-4, since he loses his combat style and dumped his Strength score(and maybe Dex). But he makes sure the party isn't ambushed, so they let him live until level 5. And what-do-you-know: when he's passed 'initiation', he suddenly becomes viable in combat! At level 6 he goes in MoMF and becomes a versatile fighting type. The Potion-throwing Rogue has it easier than the Wildshape Ranger does, but I've never heard anyone say "Wildshape Ranger sucks". It's not a Druid true, but what is?

*Second, carrying is a problem.

Now this is a stronger point. Unless you roll stats (and even if you did), you probably dumped Strength. But this goes back to the first point: by the time you have the money to have your basic gear(mithral chain shirt and all that) and use potions freely, the party will have a HHH and you can put everything but worn gear there. You carry enough for 3 rounds of combat, and restock between. Worst case is Medium load if you are the one with the HHH. Max AC bonus of +3 does suck (I concede that), but you will be staying out of melee. -3 ACP is nearly negated by MW tools.

[spoiler]*Third, there's the supply issue.  Where are you buying all these potions?  If you've got a Wizard who can teleport you to a nice metropolis (or even a large city) and then bring you back that's fine, but I always worry about any build that includes the line "as long as a Wizard will spend high level spell slots to make me stronger, I'll kick ass!"[/spoiler]

If you spend most of your time in villages, then it's a campaign issue rather than a mechanics issue. Though I'll actually add a point on your side: DC to craft is 20, and using the crafting rules if you minimize skill ranks and take 10 to get exactly 20(as is recommended), you can only craft 4 gold worth of alchemical items a day. If you do it by the week, you can maybe craft 4 acid flasks (even slower than brewing potions). So making them yourself isn't viable. So while mechanically fine, rogues who spend half or more of their time throwing potions should stick to urban areas whenever possible. Any place else probably can't handle the 100+ of these you'd use a level (even 50+ might eventually clear the shelves in small cities).

*Fourth, immunity is now an even bigger problem for you.  Rogues already have to deal with immunity to sneak attack from Undead, Constructs, Plants, Oozes, Elementals (they're not named in the description, but they rarely have any descernable anatomy), things immune to critical hits, Incorporeal creatures, and so on.  Now we've just added Demons to the list at lower levels (they all come with Fire and Acid resistance 10) and Fire and Acid Immunes become a bigger pain (if you fight a bunch of them in a row, you could easily run out of one kind of potion or the other).  Ignoring DR is all fine and well, but Immunity to melee Damage is very rare, while immunity to Fire is pretty darn common.  Immunity to Acid is less so, but it happens.  And let's face it, by the time touch attacks actually matter, Fire and Acid Immunity are getting pretty darn common. 

Not a bad point. For SA-immunes you're going to have issues. Luckily you can Quick Draw a wand for the most common threat(undead) and there's all sorts of clever ways to carry those. Penetrating Strike requires Flanking, so if you're facing Constructs *unexpectedly*(cause carrying a golem strike wand if you aren't expecting constructs is silly), you're going to have to suck it up and go into melee using the MW daggers you used in the early levels and hope SA > DR (Craven helps a lot if available). Fire and Acid immunes...not so bad. Full attacks are declared after the first attack. If acid fails, you don't go into full-attack, but use your move action to draw a potion belt filled with alchemist fire from HHH. And acid immunes are uncommon, so this shouldn't be something to happen often.

[spoiler]*Fifth, you can't flank with throwing weapons.  There goes the easiest way to use Sneak Attack, and we start to wonder why you're not playing a CA Ninja anyway (whose invisibility powers make thrown weapons work a bit better).  Now you can land sneak attacks only if the enemy has Dex denied to AC, which means in the first round of combat if you can win initiative, or if they can't see you.[/spoiler]

Yes. Darkstalker is huge for ranged rogues because invisibility is the most common way of denying dexterity. Blinking rogues have already been addressed, more or less. A Shadow Hand item of Cloak of Deception was part of my solution, and only costs 3K. That and initiative should get you two rounds of SA each combat with minimal effort.

[spoiler]*Sixth, that splash damage hits anyone fighting your target.[/spoiler]
Yeah, so? I'd be more worried about the lack of Precise Shot and "Missing with a Thrown Object" which gives a 1/8th chance of you hitting your buddy if you miss the target.

[spoiler]*Seventh, are you sure you can even sneak attack with these?[/spoiler] 
RAW says yes. After that it becomes a campaign issue. The build is not viable in every campaign setting (few are), but that's a campaign issue, not a mechanics issue and doesn't contribute to your thesis that potion-throwing rogues aren't viable.

[spoiler]*Eighth, with a 10' Range Increment you're awfully close.[/spoiler] 
There's a 2K magic item in MIC that doubles ranged increments of thrown weapons. Better than spending a feat.

[spoiler]*Ninth, it's awfully feat intensive.  Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Far Shot, Precise Shot, TWF, ITWF, GTWF... without flaws on a Halfling (who are the best race for this) that's every feat you have.  No Dark Stalker for you, unless you spend some of the Rogue special abilities on it, and that seems like a waste to me.  If you're playing below level 15 or so, you'll have a tough time getting all the feats you need.[/spoiler]

I personally would avoid Rapid Shot: two feats for an extra attack and all your attacks at -2? You'd be at -8 for TWF Rapid Shooting into melee: penalties add up quickly. Even with touch attacks you'll miss a lot at mid levels. Not worth it for me. You can buy an item that works like Far Shot for thrown weapons for 2K. Also, unless I know I'm going to reach level 15, I'd get Gloves of the Balanced Hand added to my hand slot for effective ITWF so long as you have TWF. So all in all I spend two feats: Quick Draw and TWF. 4 attacks is fine for me if all I need to spend is two feats. Then I can get Darkstalker and Improved Initiative and have a more balanced character. But there's different playstyles: some of which are as feat intensive as you say.

[SorO_Lost]

I won't even go into Kaelik's comment about 'greatsword' wielding rogues as a counter-example...

You mean where in this post I refuse to talk about this greatsword thing you mentioned but say this and that about being right?

Probably not. Good try though.

So if potions were next to free, and if no one cares if they treat their SA like SS because they can create custom greater invisibility rings or because they think holding a ring of blinking means you are wearing it, or that the range is so low you are still in a monster's attack range, or carry/draw limits are still there, then your still left with pretty much the same thing between a fighter choosing between sword and board or THF for various reasons. And just like S&B, Rogues that focus on better options can just pick up flasks as an after thought.

But the problem is this thread is a branch off the Rogue vs Factotum argument. One side uses the option of flask throwing and SA as a primary offense and the sole reason to claim Rogues are better than a actionbreakingbetterskillmonkyIcancastwithoutUMDingwandsohandSAisnotauniqueclassfeaturesoha Factotum and so this arguement will never end.

[JaronK]

Example: JaronK's first post and first point is about cost. However, as Kaelik pointed out, Wealth in the DMG expects expendables (like potions) to be used and factors in that you get more than your WBL @ X minus WBL @ X-1 between those levels.  Like from first to second level you get 300gp on average per encounter. That translates to 4,000gp for a whole party. A rogue's cut would be 1,000. WBL @ 2 is 900. Minus the 125 it starts with, is 775 of the 1,000 it needs to not expend in expendables. That leaves it with 225gp worth of potions. Seems like enough to me (what is that, 11 20gp potions?). But no, JaronK only points out Kaelik mentioning level 20 and dismisses the point. Good job, JaronK. /sarcasm

I thought my dismissal was quite fair, as I specifically said cost wasn't an issue once you get into the lower mid levels.  After all, the cost doesn't increase much as you level (it just goes up by number of attacks) while WBL increases exponentially.  So talking about level 20 as a rebuttal was worthless.

Meanwhile, you're assuming 225gp worth of expendables.  Fair enough.  So, according to Kaelik he's got flasks of Acid, flasks of Holy Water, and flasks of Alchemist's Fire.  And he's firing three shots a round, so I think to claim it's effective and that he has something to deal with Demons and Fire Immunes and Acid Immunes (each independently) he should be able to fire at least one round of shooting with each type per level right?  I mean, that's a REALLY conservative estimate.  Well, three Holy Water flasks are 75 gp, three flasks of alchemist's fire is 60gp, which leaves just 9 Acid Flasks.  That's a grand total of 5 full round attacks PER LEVEL to stay within wealth by level expected expendatures on consumable items, and even with that conservative estimate, you can only fire one full round attack at any Acid Immune non Demon you see before you're out of ammo.  That's hardly reasonable.  I figured that was obvious.  *shrug*

@Skydragon:  Yes, a Wildshape Ranger is not very effective until Wildshape kicks in.  If my only complaint was that it's not viable at lower levels, I wouldn't have even said anything.  It's the weight of all the different factors that is the problem.  And the lack of viability at low levels is just one of the problems.

Meanwhile, I think the weight thing is a serious issue.  You don't want to be taking penalties to hide and such... you're a Rogue!  And while I would certainly expect a HHH (I use one all the time) I would also expect that a Rogue wants to always have his armor, the backpack itself, and a few worn magic items (which themselves have weight).  I also personally always wear Smuggler's Boots with a hidden set of masterwork theive's tools in them (2lbs)... you never know when you might get captured and a hidden set of lockpicks is awesome.  Other gear my Rogue types would usually wear and not have in the pack include Earthsilk Jersey (DR 1/Piercing, 2lb), a Cloak of Resistance (1lb), and so on.  This quickly adds up and means that especially Halfling Rogues really need to watch their weight... and even having just three rounds of full attacks before you're automatically out of the fight at higher levels would be a serious problem.  At level 10 or so, we're talking 5 attacks a round, so 15 lbs in weapons.  Ouch.

And yeah, I forgot to mention the part about how crafting would only work if you had TONS of downtime.   Like, one day of adventure per month at most.  Someone who can cast Fabricate obviously doesn't have this issue.  As such, you really do need to be able to teleport back to town or have someone Fabricate this stuff for you on a regular basis... and we're back to "I'm awesome if the Wizard casts spells for me" issue.

Unfortunately, Quickdraw is for weapons, and a Wand is not a weapon.  And Gravestrike Wands are still only even a possibility if the DM uses the Rules Compendium (which IIRC wasn't the greatest selling book) plus there's the whole needing a Wand Bracer or to drop them after firing, and didn't we already blow our expendables budget rather quickly already?

Anyway, allow me to post a comparison of an example of what I think is actually a viable and strong Rogue.  I think it's fair at this point to use lots of books allowed, since that was necessary.  Since I play a lot of evil games, this guy will be evil, but I'll make a good variant.  For comparison, here's what we know about the Potion Throwers we've been hearing about:

Halfling (using the Racial Substitution from Races of the Wild) Rogue with two flaws
First three feats are Point Blank Shot, Quickdraw, and TWF... I hope Precise Shot comes in soon or the chance to hit is pathetically low, and I'd assume Rapid Shot is in there too.
Uses a Ring of Blinking (27kgp, not likely to be affordable until level 10 or so) to generate sneak attacks, and is thus unable to sneak attack much past the first round for the first 9 levels.  After he gets it, 20% miss chance makes me wonder why we're working so hard to get touch attacks.  And yes, for Judging Eagle... Blink specifically says all your attacks have a 20% miss chance.  That's it, that's just what it says.  Deal.

So, at level 6 we're probably looking at a guy with a Handy Haversack (2kgp), Gloves of Dexterity +2 (4kgp), plus some basic armor and other items, a backup weapon, and a heck of a lot of wealth by level blow in potions, as well as a Wand of Gravestrike.  Point Blank Shot, Quickdraw, TWF, Rapid Shot, and Precise Shot, plus two flaws.  He's got three attacks at +2 to hit plus dex bonus (probably +5 dex bonus, so total of +7 to hit), and they do a whopping 5d6 damage (average 17.5) with acid flasks if you can sneak attack, 1d6 if you can't. Plus, with much of his money shot, I'm really wondering how he even uses that Wand of Gravestrike, considering it's a DC 20 to use and he only has +9 from ranks, as well as MAD from needing Dex, Int, and Con while still needing a decent Str score on a Halfling.  I'd assume a masterwork tool, but are we really calling it effective when you fail to do most of your damage nearly half the time because of blown UMD checks?  Feel free to correct me if I'm missing something.

As a comparison, here's what I'd do as a solid combat Rogue who isn't pretending to be a Ninja.  Whispergnome (since we don't have to be a Halfling for the racial substitution) Rogue 6 with TWF, Darkstalker, Craven, Weapon Finesse, and Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance), plus two flaws.  Of course, we'll pick up a pair of Novice Shadow Hands (1500gp, grants Shadow Jaunt, provides the prerequisite for the later feat), and wield a pair of Masterwork Blue Ice Kukris (effectively like +1 Kukris).  Gloves of Dexterity and a Handy Haversack plus the usual items sound fine.  Result?  Two attacks at +4 to hit plus dex bonus doing 1d3+5d6+7+Str (or half Str offhand) damage (average 26.5, with a strength of 10) when you sneak attack, 1d3+1 if you can't.  Far higher damage, plus you can actually critically hit quite a bit (which does effect the Craven damage), and you never worry about running out of shots.  If you have to move and attack (which will happen to the potion guy too with his limited range) your much higher single shot damage really helps.  Also, weight is no longer a serious issue, and you're viable from level 1.  And you're a better Rogue, with far better stealth and the ability to spend feats on things like Darkstalker.  Heck, you're almost indetectable.  You've got more money available to spend on fun toys.  Plus you can take Penetrating Strike and at least have some effect against undead and the like without relying on the unreliable wands.  Also, you can keep sneak attacking even after the first round, so you're actually a lot more useful in combat.

And if you want to be really nasty, go Necropolitan at higher levels and turn those Kukris into Keen Enfeebling Lifedrinker Kukris, and now you do 2 negative levels to anyone you hit... including Plants, Elementals, Barbarians, and other folks the potion thrower just couldn't effect reasonably.  Nice.  Add in Opportunist as well and you're doing all kinds of stat and level damage all over the place.  Eventually the speed enchantment could be fun, and don't forget a Truedeath Crystal when you can afford it.

Meanwhile, if you want to be good, you can just avoid the Necropolitan/Lifedrinker angle, and drop Weapon Finesse for Nymph's Kiss (your DM might want you to drop Craven due to being Exalted, in which case other options are out there).  More skill points is always fun, and now you can build your own Feycraft Kukris to drop any need for Weapon Finesse anyway.  Also, the boost to Charisma skills is fun (UMD and Diplomacy!).  And you'll end up using Enfeebling Keen +3 Kukris with Truedeath Crystals, and then maybe throwing Blurstriking on there so you get even more sneak attacky goodness.

Point being, there are plenty of strong Rogue builds out there.  Potion throwing specialists aren't one of them.  I mean, no one's even been able to show one that's believably viable below level 10 (mostly because they've so far depended on a Ring of Blinking that you can't possibly afford before then).  And above level 10, another issue is setting in... you don't get to use magic weapons with potions.  And the miss chance, which the spell says you have.

JaronK

[The Lurker]

I got half way through posting a rebuttal to your post before I decided that I just don't care any more.

[Akalsaris]

I got half way through posting a rebuttal to your post before I decided that I just don't care any more.

Awesome.

[Anklebite]

I got half way through posting a rebuttal to your post before I decided that I just don't care any more.

Awesome.

heh, if you, like me, truely don't care anymore, you just won't even post!

...

oh wait SHI-


ps: how come no one has akbar'ed this thread yet? look at the damn title! someone got the ACII one handy?

[The Lurker]

I got half way through posting a rebuttal to your post before I decided that I just don't care any more.

Awesome.

heh, if you, like me, truely don't care anymore, you just won't even post!

...

oh wait SHI-


ps: how come no one has akbar'ed this thread yet? look at the damn title! someone got the ACII one handy?

http://www4.ncsu.edu/~tenshi/Killer_000.htm

I am heavily distracted by this essay right now.  I might do a point by point rebuttal later though.

[Kaelik]

I won't even go into Kaelik's comment about 'greatsword' wielding rogues as a counter-example...

You mean where in this post I refuse to talk about this greatsword thing you mentioned but say this and that about being right?

Probably not. Good try though.

If you don't know what you are talking about, don't talk about it. The only time I mentioned Greatsword Rogues is in the feat section, in which I pointed out that Rogue with only Quickdraw already does more damage than a Greatsword Rogue. Therefore, any feats in addition to quick draw, like the TWFing tree or Rapid shot, should be evaluated based on the damage they add compared to traditional rogue builds, IE All traditional Rogue builds get less damage per feat than flask builds, because flask builds get more attacks.

So in other words, yes that was exactly what he was talking about. So stay out of it if you don't have any idea what is going on.

[JaronK]

If you don't know what you are talking about, don't talk about it. The only time I mentioned Greatsword Rogues is in the feat section, in which I pointed out that Rogue with only Quickdraw already does more damage than a Greatsword Rogue. Therefore, any feats in addition to quick draw, like the TWFing tree or Rapid shot, should be evaluated based on the damage they add compared to traditional rogue builds, IE All traditional Rogue builds get less damage per feat than flask builds, because flask builds get more attacks.

Yay Quickdraw.  Because it's not like you can pay a small amount of money for the Eager enchantment, which provides the same thing except also gives +2 Int... seriously though, it's far better to spend some money than a much more valuable feat, especially considering the Int bonus is even better.  But that's not available to potion throwers, only melee types and (IIRC) bow types... since you can't enchant those potions.

They don't beat TWF Rogues who have the Speed enchantment on their weapons for number of attacks, nor bow Rogues with a Splitting bow.  If you're using Aptitude cheese then obviously Roundabout Kick/Lightning Mace will give more attacks, but even without that Snap Kick + Improved Unarmed Strike gives the same number of extra attacks as Point Blank Shot + Rapid Shot, but you can flank with that combo.  And let's be honest... "archer Rogue with a good enchantment on his bow" is a pretty darn traditional Rogue type.  So is "two weapon fighting Rogue" though admittedly throwing in a kick with each attack is somewhat new... but hardly extreme.

JaronK

[The Lurker]

If you don't know what you are talking about, don't talk about it. The only time I mentioned Greatsword Rogues is in the feat section, in which I pointed out that Rogue with only Quickdraw already does more damage than a Greatsword Rogue. Therefore, any feats in addition to quick draw, like the TWFing tree or Rapid shot, should be evaluated based on the damage they add compared to traditional rogue builds, IE All traditional Rogue builds get less damage per feat than flask builds, because flask builds get more attacks.

Yay Quickdraw.  Because it's not like you can pay a small amount of money for the Eager enchantment, which provides the same thing except also gives +2 Int... seriously though, it's far better to spend some money than a much more valuable feat, especially considering the Int bonus is even better.  But that's not available to potion throwers, only melee types and (IIRC) bow types... since you can't enchant those potions.

It allows you to kill dragons with any reasonable chance.  That's a damn good investment IMO.

They don't beat TWF Rogues who have the Speed enchantment on their weapons for number of attacks, nor bow Rogues with a Splitting bow.  If you're using Aptitude cheese then obviously Roundabout Kick/Lightning Mace will give more attacks, but even without that Snap Kick + Improved Unarmed Strike gives the same number of extra attacks as Point Blank Shot + Rapid Shot, but you can flank with that combo.  And let's be honest... "archer Rogue with a good enchantment on his bow" is a pretty darn traditional Rogue type.  So is "two weapon fighting Rogue" though admittedly throwing in a kick with each attack is somewhat new... but hardly extreme.

JaronK

Yeah, speed weapons don't stack, splitting bows are awesome regardless of your class (and are one of the things I've personally seen banned at first look), and aptitude is stupid.  Snap kick is a joke and you know it (because you're complaining about "wasting feats" on quickdraw while advocating two feats for one extra normal attack).  Seriously, show me a single rogue that has seen play that has ever at any point taken snap kick.

Splitting though...  It's pretty hardcore.  In campaigns with that allowed, I'd fully suggest switching from flasking to bowing (they both use rapidshot, so no extra feats either!) as soon as you get a +1 Splitting Force Bow.  Doesn't mean you aren't a flank rogue and then a flask rogue before you gather the cash to afford it though.

[JaronK]

It allows you to kill dragons with any reasonable chance.  That's a damn good investment IMO.

I think I'd rather have Darkstalker when going after a Dragon.  Being auto detected on the way in sucks, especially if your only source of damage is getting REALLY close and attacking a dex denied target that could kill you with a full round attack or two.  Frankly, I've seen few Rogues that are actually a serious threat to an intelligently played Dragon.

Yeah, speed weapons don't stack,

I didn't say they did.  He's only getting one extra attack from Rapid Shot.  Speed does that (without the -2 penalty).

splitting bows are awesome regardless of your class (and are one of the things I've personally seen banned at first look),

But they're not available to potion throwers.  That's one of the disadvantages... weapon enchantments which are awesome regardless of your class are not available to you.  Bow Rogues end up getting more shots via splitting, and then don't have to burn three feats on the TWF line.  BIG advantage.  Those three feats can now go to useful stuff like Darkstalker and Craven and all those juicy things.

and aptitude is stupid.

It's just one more option, and I did mention it as a cheesy option.  High powered games only.

Snap kick is a joke and you know it (because you're complaining about "wasting feats" on quickdraw while advocating two feats for one extra normal attack).

The potion thrower took Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot... two feats for one extra normal attack.  That's specifically why I mentioned it.  Basically the same thing (though PBS is a requirement for the also needed Precise Shot of course).

  Seriously, show me a single rogue that has seen play that has ever at any point taken snap kick.

 

Seriously, show me a potion thrower that has seen play.  Point being, it's just as viable an option as Rapid Shot (though Rapid Shot is better if you've got a splitting bow).

Splitting though...  It's pretty hardcore.  In campaigns with that allowed, I'd fully suggest switching from flasking to bowing (they both use rapidshot, so no extra feats either!) as soon as you get a +1 Splitting Force Bow.  Doesn't mean you aren't a flank rogue and then a flask rogue before you gather the cash to afford it though.

Except that from what we've heard, flask Rogues need a Ring of Blinking to make them work (level 11 or so before you can afford it).  A +1 Splitting Bow is just slightly more expensive than that, though it too needs something similar... but suffice to say, we're now talking about an optimal level range of one or two levels where flasking is both viable and not totally trumped by a Splitting Bow based build.  Obviously upgrading it to a Force Bow would then be the next priority.  But if we're talking about doing TWF in melee while you save up for a Ring of Blinking, and then two levels after you get it you've switched to the bow (wasting your TWF feats while you use it) that's hardly a brilliant plan.

Point being, if you want to do ranged combat, archery is a great option (but doesn't require all those TWF feats, and still has the whole miss chance issue if you wanted to use a Ring of Blinking).  Close in melee is another great option, but doesn't need the ranged feats.  Both of those options are far better examples of how Rogues generally play, and both allow you to then add in other great feats (I keep using Darkstalker and Craven as sample feats, but frankly they're darn good and have a significant effect), since they don't require so many just to function.

So yeah, I'd take a dual Kukri build as a melee or an archery build from range over a potion thrower any day, and both are viable at all levels (though archers, like potion throwers, have a tough time ensuring they can actually sneak attack at the low to low mid levels).  And both of those can have a few backup potions if they find an enemy with a really poor touch AC... or if your DM is actually allowing swift action wand use (i.e. actually has and uses the Rules Compendium and overwrites the DMG) they can actually get a Wand of Wraithstrike and do the whole thing far better.

JaronK

[Endarire]

Potion Rogues are Pogues.  That is all.

[The Lurker]

It allows you to kill dragons with any reasonable chance.  That's a damn good investment IMO.

I think I'd rather have Darkstalker when going after a Dragon.  Being auto detected on the way in sucks, especially if your only source of damage is getting REALLY close and attacking a dex denied target that could kill you with a full round attack or two.  Frankly, I've seen few Rogues that are actually a serious threat to an intelligently played Dragon.

So, you need someone to glitterdust the dragon.  Big deal.  Dragons have the [Awesome] subtype, so you're kinda expected NOT to be able to solo them (seriously, in the same game test the dragon beats just about everyone every time at every level).  Still worth it.

Yeah, speed weapons don't stack,

I didn't say they did.  He's only getting one extra attack from Rapid Shot.  Speed does that (without the -2 penalty).

Only morons actually pay for weapons of speed:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bootsofSpeed

splitting bows are awesome regardless of your class (and are one of the things I've personally seen banned at first look),

But they're not available to potion throwers.  That's one of the disadvantages... weapon enchantments which are awesome regardless of your class are not available to you.  Bow Rogues end up getting more shots via splitting, and then don't have to burn three feats on the TWF line.  BIG advantage.  Those three feats can now go to useful stuff like Darkstalker and Craven and all those juicy things.

They like totally are available to potion throwers.  Potion throwers already have rapidshot and everything.  Isn't it great how one great tactical option requires the same sort of feats as another tactical option?  It's almost like the potion rogue can do whatever is best against that particular opponent.  Almost like it's investing just a couple feats more to one round every creature close to his/her CR.  Almost like it's totally fucking viable.  And Craven?  It's really good.  For every rogue ever.  I would totally drop rapidshot for craven.  But hey, a rogue can have both!  Isn't that nice.  Dalkstalker is nice, but not really vital til high levels.

and aptitude is stupid.

It's just one more option, and I did mention it as a cheesy option.  High powered games only.

No, it's stupid.  There's a difference between high powered and stupid.  High powered is what druid is.  Taking weapon focus and lightning mace to use with an aptitude whatever the fuck is stupid because you're blowing feats for little effect.

Snap kick is a joke and you know it (because you're complaining about "wasting feats" on quickdraw while advocating two feats for one extra normal attack).

The potion thrower took Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot... two feats for one extra normal attack.  That's specifically why I mentioned it.  Basically the same thing (though PBS is a requirement for the also needed Precise Shot of course).

An extra attack against full AC.  Watch me pretend to care.

 Seriously, show me a single rogue that has seen play that has ever at any point taken snap kick.

 

I'll hunt down one of Kaelik's sheets tomorrow, but it's very simple.

Seriously, show me a potion thrower that has seen play.  Point being, it's just as viable an option as Rapid Shot (though Rapid Shot is better if you've got a splitting bow).

Yeah, I'll get to it tomorrow.  I already told you that the potion thrower can turn into the splitting bowster.  Splitting isn't something that flask rogues can't pick up.  Worst case, they are exactly one feat behind (quick draw).  Watch me pretend to care.

Splitting though...  It's pretty hardcore.  In campaigns with that allowed, I'd fully suggest switching from flasking to bowing (they both use rapidshot, so no extra feats either!) as soon as you get a +1 Splitting Force Bow.  Doesn't mean you aren't a flank rogue and then a flask rogue before you gather the cash to afford it though.

Except that from what we've heard, flask Rogues need a Ring of Blinking to make them work (level 11 or so before you can afford it).  A +1 Splitting Bow is just slightly more expensive than that, though it too needs something similar... but suffice to say, we're now talking about an optimal level range of one or two levels where flasking is both viable and not totally trumped by a Splitting Bow based build.  Obviously upgrading it to a Force Bow would then be the next priority.  But if we're talking about doing TWF in melee while you save up for a Ring of Blinking, and then two levels after you get it you've switched to the bow (wasting your TWF feats while you use it) that's hardly a brilliant plan.

Yeah, so how does the bow rogue do better than the flask rogue again?  Aside from needing an additional magic item?  I'm not seeing it.  Mostly because the bow rogue is just a higher level potion rogue that is fighting a creature with a touch AC remotely close to his full AC.

Point being, if you want to do ranged combat, archery is a great option (but doesn't require all those TWF feats, and still has the whole miss chance issue if you wanted to use a Ring of Blinking).  Close in melee is another great option, but doesn't need the ranged feats.  Both of those options are far better examples of how Rogues generally play, and both allow you to then add in other great feats (I keep using Darkstalker and Craven as sample feats, but frankly they're darn good and have a significant effect), since they don't require so many just to function.

Hypothetically speaking, you're playing from level 1 or have a GM that occasionally uses wind wall or a GM that occasionally uses sunder or a GM that occasionally uses any of the many things that just rape archers in the face?  Since you're a rogue, you want to be able to run up and stab them in the face (because that's what you're good at).

Yeah, an archer rogue flat out doesn't work til high level.  And then, we're still using the same feats as the potion rogue.  Watch me care.

So yeah, I'd take a dual Kukri build as a melee or an archery build from range over a potion thrower any day, and both are viable at all levels (though archers, like potion throwers, have a tough time ensuring they can actually sneak attack at the low to low mid levels).  And both of those can have a few backup potions if they find an enemy with a really poor touch AC... or if your DM is actually allowing swift action wand use (i.e. actually has and uses the Rules Compendium and overwrites the DMG) they can actually get a Wand of Wraithstrike and do the whole thing far better.

JaronK

*Yawn*

Not even goign to bother with that rambling paragraph.

Edit: I noticed wraithstrike.  Yeah, wraithstrike is good.  If your DM hands you a wand of wraithstrike, you can totally just walk over to the store and buy some feycraft daggers.  You already have the TWF chain, so you're good to go.

Do you see where I'm going with this?  Potion rogues are also the same build as archery rogues and melee rogues.  The exact same build.

[RobbyPants]

Do you see where I'm going with this?  Potion rogues are also the same build as archery rogues and melee rogues.  The exact same build.

That is a good point, there.

Many or most of the feats are the same for a TWF melee rogue.  You're really just missing Weapon Finesse, and you have a coupld of ranged attack feats added on.

Also, this helps explain potion throwing rogues at low levels: you do it when you can or when it's really effective (against opponents with a high AC and low touch AC).  Otherwise, you just use regular weapons and save your money.  I guess, even if I wanted to roll up a potion throwing rogue, I'd just consider that to be one of his many tricks he has avaiable (including regular melee and ranged Sneak Attacks as well as UMD).

[PhaedrusXY]

I guess, even if I wanted to roll up a potion throwing rogue, I'd just consider that to be one of his many tricks he has avaiable (including regular melee and ranged Sneak Attacks as well as UMD).

Which is exactly what I said earlier (and I was just repeating what other people had said). The premise that this entire thread is built around is false. There is no "potion rogue". It's just a rogue, who uses potions sometimes, but can also use other stuff when appropriate.

[RobbyPants]

I guess, even if I wanted to roll up a potion throwing rogue, I'd just consider that to be one of his many tricks he has avaiable (including regular melee and ranged Sneak Attacks as well as UMD).

Which is exactly what I said earlier (and I was just repeating what other people had said). The premise that this entire thread is built around is false. There is no "potion rogue". It's just a rogue, who uses potions sometimes, but can also use other stuff when appropriate.

That doesn't surprise me.  I lost interest in reading every post of this thread a while ago.

[Braithwaite]

Anyway, allow me to post a comparison of an example of what I think is actually a viable and strong Rogue.  I think it's fair at this point to use lots of books allowed, since that was necessary.  Since I play a lot of evil games, this guy will be evil, but I'll make a good variant.  For comparison, here's what we know about the Potion Throwers we've been hearing about:

Halfling (using the Racial Substitution from Races of the Wild) Rogue with two flaws
First three feats are Point Blank Shot, Quickdraw, and TWF... I hope Precise Shot comes in soon or the chance to hit is pathetically low, and I'd assume Rapid Shot is in there too.
Uses a Ring of Blinking (27kgp, not likely to be affordable until level 10 or so) to generate sneak attacks, and is thus unable to sneak attack much past the first round for the first 9 levels.  After he gets it, 20% miss chance makes me wonder why we're working so hard to get touch attacks.  And yes, for Judging Eagle... Blink specifically says all your attacks have a 20% miss chance.  That's it, that's just what it says.  Deal.

So, at level 6 we're probably looking at a guy with a Handy Haversack (2kgp), Gloves of Dexterity +2 (4kgp), plus some basic armor and other items, a backup weapon, and a heck of a lot of wealth by level blow in potions, as well as a Wand of Gravestrike.  Point Blank Shot, Quickdraw, TWF, Rapid Shot, and Precise Shot, plus two flaws.  He's got three attacks at +2 to hit plus dex bonus (probably +5 dex bonus, so total of +7 to hit), and they do a whopping 5d6 damage (average 17.5) with acid flasks if you can sneak attack, 1d6 if you can't. Plus, with much of his money shot, I'm really wondering how he even uses that Wand of Gravestrike, considering it's a DC 20 to use and he only has +9 from ranks, as well as MAD from needing Dex, Int, and Con while still needing a decent Str score on a Halfling.  I'd assume a masterwork tool, but are we really calling it effective when you fail to do most of your damage nearly half the time because of blown UMD checks?  Feel free to correct me if I'm missing something.

As a comparison, here's what I'd do as a solid combat Rogue who isn't pretending to be a Ninja.  Whispergnome (since we don't have to be a Halfling for the racial substitution) Rogue 6 with TWF, Darkstalker, Craven, Weapon Finesse, and Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance), plus two flaws.  Of course, we'll pick up a pair of Novice Shadow Hands (1500gp, grants Shadow Jaunt, provides the prerequisite for the later feat), and wield a pair of Masterwork Blue Ice Kukris (effectively like +1 Kukris).  Gloves of Dexterity and a Handy Haversack plus the usual items sound fine.  Result?  Two attacks at +4 to hit plus dex bonus doing 1d3+5d6+7+Str (or half Str offhand) damage (average 26.5, with a strength of 10) when you sneak attack, 1d3+1 if you can't.  Far higher damage, plus you can actually critically hit quite a bit (which does effect the Craven damage), and you never worry about running out of shots.  If you have to move and attack (which will happen to the potion guy too with his limited range) your much higher single shot damage really helps.  Also, weight is no longer a serious issue, and you're viable from level 1.  And you're a better Rogue, with far better stealth and the ability to spend feats on things like Darkstalker.  Heck, you're almost indetectable.  You've got more money available to spend on fun toys.  Plus you can take Penetrating Strike and at least have some effect against undead and the like without relying on the unreliable wands.  Also, you can keep sneak attacking even after the first round, so you're actually a lot more useful in combat.
JaronK

I hope you don't mind if I ignore your strawman halfling and make my own? Since you are using an absurd number of books, my build will be Marrulurk Rogue 2. Feats: Point Blank Shot (B), Rapid Shot (B), Quickdraw (1), TWF (3), Precise Shot (F), Assassins Stance (F). 5d6 extra damage per sneak attack. My ranged attacks are +4 (Bab) +1 (PBS) +3 (Racial Dex Mod) -2 (Rapid Shot) -2 (TWF) for a total of +4 to hit + natural dex mod, 3 times per round. I can melee almost as well as you, I can do ranged combat vastly better than you. Next level, when I take Assassin 1, I will get a wand of swift invisibility, held in a wand chamber in my +1 returning dagger, but only to tide me over until I get my wand of Greater Invisibility in a level or 2. So, not a full potion thrower yet at level 6, but extremely viable and ready to burst onto the potion throwing scene as it were in a level or 2.

Or, if you would like to step back from the brink of unlikely to be allowed madness, shall we try core?

Human Rogue 5 Assassin 1. +4d6 sneak attack. Feats: Quickdraw, TWF, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot.

[BowenSilverclaw]

You don't qualify for Assassin's Stance

[Braithwaite]

If you mean minimum manifester level, neither does he. If you mean meeting prereqs, I will do it with an item, same as him.

[BowenSilverclaw]

Heh, completely missed that.