Author Topic: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!  (Read 28663 times)

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Alastar

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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #100 on: August 11, 2009, 11:00:19 AM »
For what it's worth, I,ll throw my weight behind Jaronk, his arguments, while they assume a vast array of DM's and such may not apply to your own personnal game, are highly constructive, while, as an outside reader who has no interest in playing a potion rogue, the other side seems to be keen on ''OMGWTFYOULIAR'' destructive criticism.

I know this is the internetz, but stating and debating your points throught facts is actually the best way to do it.

Braithwaite

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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #101 on: August 11, 2009, 11:07:40 AM »
Which is quite true, but it also means that as a rule, one shouldn't assume ToB is allowed (even though I think it darn well should be!).  I'm not saying that potion throwers shouldn't be allowed, just that they sometimes may not be (and that they probably aren't worth playing anyway, and certainly shouldn't be given as an example of how Rogues are generally played).

I never said it was cheesy, I said it wasn't viable.  Where are you getting this nonsense about it being cheesy?  Frankly, it should be viable... I loved playing potion throwers in Diablo II, and I see nothing wrong with it.  I said it shouldn't be played because it's like Sunder Fighters or Grappling Fighters... it doesn't actually work in game if you actually try and use it as a main battle tactic.

Look at my OP again, and check... did I say potion throwers were broken?  Yes or no?  Did I say they shouldn't be allowed?  Or did I say they weren't actually a viable build, and were only functional on paper?  In other words, that they're too weak in real play?  Please, read my arguments for what they say, not what you may want them to say.

Your first post sounded a lot like you were saying that sometimes, like ToB, potion throwing isn't allowed, and therefore they are not usable as an example of rogues. If that is not what you were saying, I am sorry that I misunderstood you, although after reading it again I would still interpret it that way without the later explanation.

If your only point is that potion throwers are unusable or weak, then I feel that you have been refuted in other posts. In any event, we aren't going to change each others minds.

And yes SorO, I also noticed that no one mentions that Ninjas are better at this sort of thing anyway, and yet are considered far weaker.  If potion throwers are so great, why is the Ninja not the ultimate skillmonkey?  They can actually trigger thrown weapon precision damage FAR easier.  Though they still have most of the problems I mentioned, they ARE better at it.

I don't mention Ninjas because:
1. I haven't built one, played one, or played in a campaign with one. Therefore their advantages for me are purely theoretical, I don't know how they would work in play.

2. Lets pretend that I made a focused specialist enchanter, and used magic items and feats to boost his enchantment saves to unreachable levels. Thats a good trick, and one I would be relying on. Now lets pretend that I took Conjuration, Transmutation, and Illusion as my opposition schools, and filled my spellbook with nothing but enchantments. That would be crazy, right? I would have gimped myself on those encounters where my regular trick won't work. Just because my character PLANS on throwing potions most of the time doesn't mean that I don't want to have other options in case I run into something with see invisibility or blindsight.

3. Ninjas are better at throwing potions at low levels. That, unfortunately, is when potion throwing is the most cost prohibitive, and the least useful. By mid to high levels, when potion throwing has the potential to become a regular trick, the rogue has replaced the Ninja's main class feature with a greater invisibility item, which he uses through Assassin casting or a 1 level spellthief dip. The rogue still has a range of ACFs and racial classes to pick benefits from, tricks like daring outlaw, etc. etc. etc.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #102 on: August 11, 2009, 11:11:29 AM »
For what it's worth, I,ll throw my weight behind Jaronk, his arguments, while they assume a vast array of DM's and such may not apply to your own personnal game, are highly constructive, while, as an outside reader who has no interest in playing a potion rogue, the other side seems to be keen on ''OMGWTFYOULIAR'' destructive criticism.

I know this is the internetz, but stating and debating your points throught facts is actually the best way to do it.
Is there a fallacy name for this? Like the "You're an asshole so you're wrong" fallacy? Because there totally should be. Kaelik, though his style is no doubt offensive, has made some good logical arguments.

Meanwhile, I think JaronK has constructed a total strawman argument in the first place. As has already been repeatedly stated (I didn't read the whole thread, but enough of it), any rogue built to use this combat style can also use the same feats to fight using other weapons. So even if his "potions" are useless for some reason, he still has plenty to do to be effective in combat. So the entire premise of this thread is entirely false, and ridiculous.

And even if you accept his false premise, many of the arguments based on it have been shot down already. The fact that the people shooting them down weren't nice about it doesn't take any weight away from the truth of their arguments. The counter-arguments basically boil down to: Throwing potions can be an effective tactic for many combats. Even if you use it as often as possible, it won't come close to using up your WBL. (You're supposed to be using up a fraction of the wealth you get on consumables, according to the rules.) And the splash damage is minimal compared to the benefit. And any build based around doing this will also be effective at doing other things, like TWFing, throwing daggers, or shooting a bow.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Brainpiercing

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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #103 on: August 11, 2009, 11:31:15 AM »
Quote
Is there a fallacy name for this? Like the "You're an asshole so you're wrong" fallacy? Because there totally should be. Kaelik, though his style is no doubt offensive, has made some good logical arguments.

Well, while you won't be wrong if you're an asshole, what should rightly happen is that noone listens to you until you start being civil. So, yeah, that's just as good as being wrong.

Braithwaite

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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #104 on: August 11, 2009, 11:33:15 AM »
1)  He assumes magic marts at all times, hence the endless wands.  I don't like to assume such things.  Notice how when I talk about things, I mention when they may not work due to campaign settings.  The Factotum thing I mentioned?  Works in all settings that play by RAW.  All of them.

If we were back in a thread about tier systems, that would be fair. If your base post had been "potion throwing rogues are unworkable in core, or core +XYZ" that would be fair. When your only argument is that potion rogues are unworkable, I see no reason why he can't dumpster dive to refute.

4)  He's got a forcebow as a backup.  Here's a crazy idea:  the Forcebow itself is a good solid weapon that's actually useful.  He could actually be an archer if he wanted with potions as the backup.  But that's not what he's been busting out every time he wants to prove how Rogues are great because of potions.  Not a bit of it.  As a result, he's wasted three feats (on the TWF line) that could have been used to make him a decent archer.  Otherwise, he's just a bad Fighter with that bow.  

Now that is absolutely true. Me, I would use Gloves of Endless Javelins, and maybe 1 or 2 returning daggers. Then I still get to use all my thrown feats.

5)   His bit about feats just proves the earlier point about how feat  intensive this whole thing is.  He needs flaws just to make it viable at low levels.  Remember, I listed a bunch of problems with potion throwing as a primary tactic, none of which he's rebutted at all except to say "you're a liar."

It probably isn't viable at low levels for a rogue. (Although, as you and SorO pointed out, it could be for a ninja). Not because of the potion throwing, but because there isn't a cheap, reliable way to get ranged sneak attack damage before Greater Invisibility becomes available. But it isn't like building to the point where it is usable is a hard road. Nothing that leads to potion throwing is a bad feat by itself.

There are tons of tactics which are absolutely impossible at low levels. Wildshape. Shadowcraft Mage. We don't call them a trap because the paths to get to them ARE perfectly playable 1-5. Same here.

See why I don't like to respond to this guy?

I do. I stop reading his posts the first time he swears or calls someone a name. Any points that he makes that are good are usually picked up by other posters later.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2009, 11:39:12 AM by Braithwaite »

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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #105 on: August 11, 2009, 12:30:14 PM »
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Akalsaris

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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #106 on: August 11, 2009, 03:50:12 PM »
Here's a slightly odd question, but how balanced would you say a feat was that allowed rogues to have ranged sneak attacks against foes that are flanked by the rogue's allies?  Something like the 4E feat.  I think it would make the potion thrower and archer rogues much more viable - but maybe too powerful compared to a melee rogue.

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Judging Eagle

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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #107 on: August 11, 2009, 04:29:30 PM »
Actually Alastar,

JaronK is still making some very illegal rules assumptions. Then saying that he's right. That.... is probably not intentional, but in any case what he is saying is not based on the actual game's rules themselves.

Ring of Blink makes the user act as if under the effects of the Blink spell. It's just like every other spell effect. Like any other spell effect, a creature's carried items are no longer affected by spell effects once they leave the creature's possession.

When under the effects of the Blink spell, things that leave your possession, such as say, an arrow or... surprise, surprise. a flask; they then also are no longer affected by spells that affect you. Giving the flask rogue no concern about miss chance. The Melee Rogue, or the one that JK seems to like so much, can't overcome that limitation, since he's holding his wielded weapons.

Basically, JaronK failed basic spell effect application. Then eiter intentionally, or unintentionally, decided to make that into a strawman argument to say why a ranged rogue can't use a Ring of Blinking. The Ring of Blinking tactic is common for bow and crossbow rogues as well. Having it not apply to flask rogues is ridiculous.

Not even knowing the basics of how spells apply to a creaature is actually unforgivable for someone who wants to even pretend to say that they can "quantify" what power level a character is, or is not. I mean, you're qualifying whether a spell caster is more or less powerful than a non-caster; but you don't know how spells interact with creatures. That's a pretty big problem, since it means you're probably making tons of other mistakes.

Personally, I find the idea of tiers to be folly. I've built fighters that can embarrass a wizard in the same party. Heck, even in games where the DM knows and has to approve every single feat, item, level, overall strategy and tactic that my character uses; I've built a non-caster that they aknowledge as being "overpowered".

Yet I know for a fact that a Wizard makes a better.... anything than most other classes... Wizards make better Grapplers than Monks (or Fighters, a full BaB class with feats coming out their ears); better killers than Assassins; better at absorbing damage than Barbarians; plus you know, having full spell casting, and the ability to relegate "bullshit utility spells" to indefinate storage in the form of scrolls.

Player ability and knowledge of combat options often has further reaching effects than writing "Druid" or "Cleric" on your character sheet.
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #108 on: August 11, 2009, 04:36:06 PM »
Actually Alastar,

JaronK is still making some very illegal rules assumptions. Then saying that he's right. That.... is probably not intentional, but in any case what he is saying is not based on the actual game's rules themselves.

Ring of Blink makes the user act as if under the effects of the Blink spell. It's just like every other spell effect. Like any other spell effect, a creature's carried items are no longer affected by spell effects once they leave the creature's possession.

When under the effects of the Blink spell, things that leave your possession, such as say, an arrow or... surprise, surprise. a flask; they then also are no longer affected by spells that affect you. Giving the flask rogue no concern about miss chance. The Melee Rogue, or the one that JK seems to like so much, can't overcome that limitation, since he's holding his wielded weapons.
I don't think that is 100% clear. While under the effects of Blink, you spend part of your time (20%) on the Ethereal Plane. If the weapon you're throwing happens to leave your hand while on the Ethereal, does it suddenly return to the Material when it leaves your hand? I could see that going either way.

I also am not sure if there is a "generic" rule about spell effects ceasing to function on items that leave your possession. I know some specific spells say this (Polymorph, etc), but I don't remember seeing this as a generic rule.

It still doesn't mean that a rogue throwing flasks shouldn't use a Ring of Blinking. The 20% miss chance is probably less than the chance a flanking melee rogue would have to miss his target, especially on later iterative attacks. It is a better investment for the flask thrower than it is for the archer or dagger throwing rogue, for whom this item is almost universally recommended.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Braithwaite

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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #109 on: August 11, 2009, 04:39:35 PM »
I have a sudden image of hundreds of lost flasks of acid and alchemists fire floating randomly away through the ethereal.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #110 on: August 11, 2009, 04:45:49 PM »
I have a sudden image of hundreds of lost flasks of acid and alchemists fire floating randomly away through the ethereal.
What about the poor guy who has Returning Daggers and a Ring of Blinking? I don't think those cross planar boundaries. :P I guess as long as his Blink is still going, he should be ok, though. Unless his DM is a total dick.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Alastar

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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #111 on: August 11, 2009, 05:02:11 PM »
Actually Alastar,

JaronK is still making some very illegal rules assumptions. Then saying that he's right. That.... is probably not intentional, but in any case what he is saying is not based on the actual game's rules themselves.

Ring of Blink makes the user act as if under the effects of the Blink spell. It's just like every other spell effect. Like any other spell effect, a creature's carried items are no longer affected by spell effects once they leave the creature's possession.

When under the effects of the Blink spell, things that leave your possession, such as say, an arrow or... surprise, surprise. a flask; they then also are no longer affected by spells that affect you. Giving the flask rogue no concern about miss chance. The Melee Rogue, or the one that JK seems to like so much, can't overcome that limitation, since he's holding his wielded weapons.

Basically, JaronK failed basic spell effect application. Then eiter intentionally, or unintentionally, decided to make that into a strawman argument to say why a ranged rogue can't use a Ring of Blinking. The Ring of Blinking tactic is common for bow and crossbow rogues as well. Having it not apply to flask rogues is ridiculous.

Not even knowing the basics of how spells apply to a creaature is actually unforgivable for someone who wants to even pretend to say that they can "quantify" what power level a character is, or is not. I mean, you're qualifying whether a spell caster is more or less powerful than a non-caster; but you don't know how spells interact with creatures. That's a pretty big problem, since it means you're probably making tons of other mistakes.

Personally, I find the idea of tiers to be folly. I've built fighters that can embarrass a wizard in the same party. Heck, even in games where the DM knows and has to approve every single feat, item, level, overall strategy and tactic that my character uses; I've built a non-caster that they aknowledge as being "overpowered".

Yet I know for a fact that a Wizard makes a better.... anything than most other classes... Wizards make better Grapplers than Monks (or Fighters, a full BaB class with feats coming out their ears); better killers than Assassins; better at absorbing damage than Barbarians; plus you know, having full spell casting, and the ability to relegate "bullshit utility spells" to indefinate storage in the form of scrolls.

Player ability and knowledge of combat options often has further reaching effects than writing "Druid" or "Cleric" on your character sheet.


Your making a lot of different assumptions yourself with that statement, and pushing them as being true.  Ironic isn't it?

Also, you can make the most overpowered fighter you want, it's still going to suck.  Mostly cause you don't have a lot of options besides ''i plant something sharp into the ennemy''  THat's the basis of the tier system, it's not about combat power, it's about options, and i think it makes sense.

AfterCrescent

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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #112 on: August 11, 2009, 06:05:06 PM »
Just a comment from the peanut gallery. This whole debate is like watching the Special Olympics. Everyone's pointing out rules here and there while ignoring other rules. They're also nitpicking single comments against their position while willfully ignoring entire other PARAGRAPHs that disprove their point.
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #113 on: August 11, 2009, 06:08:49 PM »
I'm not reading all 6 pages of this BS. And aren't debates in RL just as much like that? Or do you think political pundits bother analyzing every detail of what their target says in a logical and methodical manner?  :lol
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

AfterCrescent

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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #114 on: August 11, 2009, 06:11:36 PM »
RL debates don't always mean political pundits. That being said, of course political debates are like internet debates.  I prefer a good, logical debate about the rules, though, and everyone involved here is failing fairly hard. ;)
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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #115 on: August 11, 2009, 06:19:50 PM »
RL debates don't always mean political pundits. That being said, of course political debates are like internet debates.  I prefer a good, logical debate about the rules, though, and everyone involved here is failing fairly hard. ;)
As do I, which is why I like string theory debates... the only way to prove someone wrong is with logic
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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #116 on: August 11, 2009, 06:20:25 PM »
don't bring the tier system into this- as one above me posted, it's about options.

sure, a fighter can be built to be pretty good at either archery, sword/board, twohanded fighting or DW if done correctly. the differance is, the wizard can be better than any one of those fighters all the time while using one build, and he does it faaaaar better. in addition, he can do other things whenever he wants, and can swap what he wants to do on a daily basis without resorting to psychic reformation. THAT is the basis of the tiers.

but getting back on the train rails we seem to be constantly flying off of (who the hell keeps laying all these pennies around? AIIEEEEE *splat*), I agree that potion throwing should be considered one of the tricks availible to a rogue, not one that he has to go all out in and always use no matter what.

I also refuse to take sides, because walking the fence is the only way around here to explain increasing my ranks in balance (rim shot).
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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #117 on: August 11, 2009, 06:25:29 PM »
RL debates don't always mean political pundits. That being said, of course political debates are like internet debates.  I prefer a good, logical debate about the rules, though, and everyone involved here is failing fairly hard. ;)
So enlighten us? Or are you just trolling? Isn't that against the CoC?  :smirk
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

AfterCrescent

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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #118 on: August 11, 2009, 08:23:54 PM »
Nope. Just stating that both sides so far have not proven anything beyond their ability to ignore each other's point and spout idiocy.

Example: JaronK's first post and first point is about cost. However, as Kaelik pointed out, Wealth in the DMG expects expendables (like potions) to be used and factors in that you get more than your WBL @ X minus WBL @ X-1 between those levels.  Like from first to second level you get 300gp on average per encounter. That translates to 4,000gp for a whole party. A rogue's cut would be 1,000. WBL @ 2 is 900. Minus the 125 it starts with, is 775 of the 1,000 it needs to not expend in expendables. That leaves it with 225gp worth of potions. Seems like enough to me (what is that, 11 20gp potions?). But no, JaronK only points out Kaelik mentioning level 20 and dismisses the point. Good job, JaronK. /sarcasm

I won't even go into Kaelik's comment about 'greatsword' wielding rogues as a counter-example... :nonono
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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #119 on: August 11, 2009, 08:30:21 PM »
I won't even go into Kaelik's comment about 'greatsword' wielding rogues as a counter-example...

You mean where JaronK complained that it's too feat intensive and I showed that with only a single feat they out damage Rogues that wield a single weapon, and obviously if he is comparing it to TWFing rogues then he'd can't point out how I'm wasting feats on TWFing, because so is every other Rogue build?