[3.5] Flanking

[Bauglir]

Not exactly a bit of rules heavily in need of reworking, but it's one of the ideas I had for altering 3.5 and I wanted to get it down here. Ideally, it should slightly increase the focus on tactical combat, give a reason to wear heavy armor for a high AC build (your AC caps out lower, but it's somewhat more useful against multiple opponents because being flat-footed is less of a drawback, so it's a tradeoff), and make it a bit easier for large numbers of opponents to bring down more powerful creatures.

Flanked is now a condition. Creatures are flanked when two creatures threaten it from opposite sides (defined as from one vertex, edge, or face of the creature's cube to the opposite vertex, edge, or face, respectively). A flanked creature takes a -2 penalty to AC, as well as on Reflex saves. For every additional creature threatening the flanked creature, regardless of direction, the creature takes an additional -1 penalty. These penalties apply against any attack or effect, not just those generated by the threatening creatures. A flanked creature can choose to ignore this condition, in a sense. To do so, the creature selects, as a free action at the beginning of its turn, a single opponent threatening it. Against all other opponents threatening it, the creature is flat-footed (even if the creature ordinarily cannot be, and it is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC even if it ordinarily cannot be), but it is no longer flanked (and thus no longer takes any of the penalties for flanking, and special abilities reliant on flanking do not function).

[wotmaniac]

I like this a lot.  makes total sense; I have had issues with some of the particulars of the "flanking" mechanic myself.
I just sent this out to my current gaming group to get their feedback -- I'll update you with what they say.

Question:  how does this affect sneak attack (if at all)?

[bkdubs123]

Question:  how does this affect sneak attack (if at all)?

I would expect that melee sneak attacking seems to go unchanged, while ranged sneak attacking becomes really awesome (which is kinda cool, but potentially VERY powerful).

The penalty to Reflex saves is interesting and makes sense I guess. Changes gameplay up a bit, but only just a very small bit.

[wotmaniac]

Question:  how does this affect sneak attack (if at all)?

I would expect that melee sneak attacking seems to go unchanged, while ranged sneak attacking becomes really awesome (which is kinda cool, but potentially VERY powerful).

The penalty to Reflex saves is interesting and makes sense I guess. Changes gameplay up a bit, but only just a very small bit.

definitley something to work out.  however, i'll have more details/critique later this weekend.

[dman11235]

Question:  how does this affect sneak attack (if at all)?

I would expect that melee sneak attacking seems to go unchanged, while ranged sneak attacking becomes really awesome (which is kinda cool, but potentially VERY powerful).

The penalty to Reflex saves is interesting and makes sense I guess. Changes gameplay up a bit, but only just a very small bit.

Makes ranged SAing actually possible.

[Bauglir]

Question:  how does this affect sneak attack (if at all)?

It either makes it easier or harder. The major downside of this change, as far as I can tell, is that somebody flanked by creatures with only one Sneak Attacker can choose to pay attention ONLY to the sneak attacker and thus deny them their sneak attack. Which makes logical sense, but is a pretty nasty thing to do to PC rogues (NPCs can always just have multiple Rogues). I think I'll clarify it slightly such that you still get sneak attacked even if you're ignoring most opponents.

[wotmaniac]

well, AFAIK, by RAW, the whole "ignore everyone but the rogue" is an option anyway (it's not stated specifically, but it is implied -- there was a whole discussion on it over at gleemax).

I guess my question was that if someone has the condition of "flanked",:
1) can you do a ranged sneak attack without having them denied dex (AFAIK, ranged sneak attack can be a little tricky, because you can't flank from range); and
2) does the rogue have to be in the flanking postion to get his sneak attack, or can he get it from any position on a "flanked" opponent?

[Bauglir]

Right, then. Since flanked is a condition now, sneak attack and other things like that have to change from "a creature you are flanking" to "a creature that is flanked". Which means that a rogue can use two fighters flanking an ogre to make a ranged sneak attack as long as said rogue is within 30 ft (because that qualification still applies to ranged sneak attacks).

[AfterCrescent]

I don't like the change where you can't just ignore anyone but the rogue, as that's currently a valid tactic anyway.  I'd put it back the way it was.

I also have a hilarious image of swarmfighting lowering a flanked creature's AC for an army of archers.

[veekie]

Hmm, with flanking, I'd personally have just made it a variable impact condition, depending on how many opponents are attacking. That is to say, being attacked by 2 guys at once in a round gives a -1 penalty, 3 guys make it a -2, etc. It'd make mobs of mooks a lot more potent though, and archer mobs are going to make you die in the shade.

[Bauglir]

I don't like the change where you can't just ignore anyone but the rogue, as that's currently a valid tactic anyway.  I'd put it back the way it was.

I also have a hilarious image of swarmfighting lowering a flanked creature's AC for an army of archers.

Not as far as I can tell under the flanking rules, although it's sensible to houserule and I do so myself. However, if that's the case, I'll switch it back.

archer mobs are going to make you die in the shade.

Only if they're fighting with melee mobs as well, since archers don't threaten.

[AfterCrescent]

I don't like the change where you can't just ignore anyone but the rogue, as that's currently a valid tactic anyway.  I'd put it back the way it was.

I also have a hilarious image of swarmfighting lowering a flanked creature's AC for an army of archers.

Not as far as I can tell under the flanking rules, although it's sensible to houserule and I do so myself. However, if that's the case, I'll switch it back.

I know I've seen it somewhere other than a random houserule... But I'm tired, so I'll check in the morning.

[Ralp]

I don't like the change where you can't just ignore anyone but the rogue, as that's currently a valid tactic anyway.  I'd put it back the way it was.

I also have a hilarious image of swarmfighting lowering a flanked creature's AC for an army of archers.

Not as far as I can tell under the flanking rules, although it's sensible to houserule and I do so myself. However, if that's the case, I'll switch it back.

I know I've seen it somewhere other than a random houserule... But I'm tired, so I'll check in the morning.

This is a houserule suggested in the official FAQ.  (I'm pretty sure.)

[Original Sin]

I'm currently working on a ranged sneak attacking rogue, and have noted a few minor shortfalls.  The biggest problem I've had is that you can't flank from range, nor can you feint at range.  Making Flanked a condition will actually increase the abilities of rogues quite a bit.  (Not that I'm complaining! )  I would like to see some skill tricks or maybe feats that would allow you to flank ranged targets or feint them if within 30', and a feat that allows you to use thrown weapons in melee without incurring Attacks of Opportunity.  (Sure, I can always take my 5' step to gain range, but then I lose flanking, can't feint.)  Maybe this exists somewhere, I don't have all the books, so feel free to enlighten me.