Tier System For Classes (Repost)

[The Lurker]

Since apparently reposting locked threads is good now...

Foreward
This system is to help you balance your campaign so that everyone is able to face roughly the same power in challenges (basically, so nobody is too powerful or not powerful enough and they can all contribute in encounters).  This is *not* a system about breaking the game or exploits (because exploits break the game too).  I am defining breaking the game as one of too things:
1) Making appropriate encounters trivial (examples include explosive runes bombs, shrink item bombs, wish economy without book of gears, basically anything that gets arbritrary really)
2) Things that make the PC unable to play the same game.  An example of this is the monk.  There is literally nothing you can do to make him play the same game as a beguiler.

Other things this is not about:
High level optimization.  If you're actually needing my help to balance your campaign with a tier system, you straight up don't know enough to make top end optimized characters.  I am going to assume moderate competence (such as being able to figure out which spells in the PHB are really awesome on wizards).

Tier 1: Always has a top end level appropriate effect and pretty darn good defences.
Examples: Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist, Artificer.

Tier 2: Always has something to contribute that's totally fricken awesome, but might not be as good as the tier 1 guys.
Examples: Favoured Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Dread Necromancer, Beguiler, Wu Jen, Spirit Shaman

Tier 3: Specialists that are good in a specialty that is straight up inferior (for example, melee guys compared to SoD casters above) and caster types that don't get as good spells as the tier 2s (be it because of a gimped spell list like shugenja or crappy power learning mechanic like ardent).
Examples: Crusader, Rogue, Binder, Duskblade, Warblade, Psychic Warrior, Incarnate, Totemist, Shugenja, Ardent

Tier 4: Competent in area of specialty, can probably get 4/10 wins on the same game test.  Typically one trick ponies.
Examples: Swordsage, Barbarian, Warlock, Warmage, Scout, Ranger, Adept, Fighter, Bard, Factotum, Rokugan Ninja

Tier 5: I cut myself at night classes.  These classes have trouble even in the area of specialization.
Examples: Monk, CA Ninja, Healer, Swashbuckler, Soulknife, Expert, Paladin, Spellthief, Hexblade, Marshal, Soulborn

Tier 6: I just shot myself in the balls classes.  These classes can't do anything even if they specialize in it.
Examples: CW Samurai, Aristocrat, Warrior, Commoner, Lurk, Divine Mind


Tiers 1 and 2 are generally fine together.  3 and 4 are also pretty ok together.  I wouldn't suggest letting your players pick tier 5 or 6 classes in any published adventure.

[Psychic Robot]

I don't know if it's fair to put the hexblade below the fighter.  The dark companion variant is useful, and he eventually gets access to spells on the sorcerer/wizard list (granting him things like polymorph and mirror image).  While that doesn't excuse the overall terrible nature of the class, I think that a hexblade is probably more useful than a fighter.

EDIT:

I have noticed a trend amongst the Tier threads.

Poster A posts his tiers.  Poster B says, "Nuh-uh, class X is Tier Y."  Poster A replies, "Nuh-uh, it's Tier Z and here's why."  And then the thread goes downhill from there.

So here's my suggestion for anyone who really thinks that the Tier system adds anything to the game/is important: create three separate Tier brackets, one for high optimization (dumpster diving everywhere, class variants left and right), another for moderate optimization (sensible choices that don't approach the CO board level of rooting through rulebooks to find another +1), and a third for low optimization (for players who take Skill Focus and Toughness).

[The Lurker]

I don't know if it's fair to put the hexblade below the fighter.  The dark companion variant is useful, and he eventually gets access to spells on the sorcerer/wizard list (granting him things like polymorph and mirror image).  While that doesn't excuse the overall terrible nature of the class, I think that a hexblade is probably more useful than a fighter.

The hexblade gets those spells late enough that he's pretty likely to have equipment that mirror those, but are up 100% of the time:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#cloakofDisplacementMinor
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#skinofProteus

And really, I'd rather have a trip fighter or pouncer in my party than a hexblade.   They just generally don't have much offensive punch.

EDIT:

I have noticed a trend amongst the Tier threads.

Poster A posts his tiers.  Poster B says, "Nuh-uh, class X is Tier Y."  Poster A replies, "Nuh-uh, it's Tier Z and here's why."  And then the thread goes downhill from there.

So here's my suggestion for anyone who really thinks that the Tier system adds anything to the game/is important: create three separate Tier brackets, one for high optimization (dumpster diving everywhere, class variants left and right), another for moderate optimization (sensible choices that don't approach the CO board level of rooting through rulebooks to find another +1), and a third for low optimization (for players who take Skill Focus and Toughness).

Well, I've explicitly called out the first option as not even mattering.  The second option is pretty much exactly what this is.  The third, the players are unlikely to notice imbalance anyways (because they clearly don't spend that much time caring about mechanics).

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

Well, I've explicitly called out the first option as not even mattering.  The second option is pretty much exactly what this is.  The third, the players are unlikely to notice imbalance anyways (because they clearly don't spend that much time caring about mechanics).

what robot said makes sense. Even people who don't know about optimizing notice when a planar shepard starts owning at the table top.

and no its not cool to reopen locked topics. if a topic actually gets locked here it has to be pretty bad.

[The Lurker]

Well, I've explicitly called out the first option as not even mattering.  The second option is pretty much exactly what this is.  The third, the players are unlikely to notice imbalance anyways (because they clearly don't spend that much time caring about mechanics).

what robot said makes sense. Even people who don't know about optimizing notice when a planar shepard starts owning at the table top.

The people that are playing planar shepards aren't using tier systems.  They already understand what's powerful and what's not.  And if one player wants to be a dick, that's actually outside of the tier system.  There are dozens of ways to be a dick.

and no its not cool to reopen locked topics. if a topic actually gets locked here it has to be pretty bad.

Meh.

[lans]

I really have to ask about the healer and warmage.
Do you take into account the healers ability to use corrupt/sanctified spells?

What is it about the warmage that makes you think he is a full 2 tiers below dread necro and beguiler? In the early levels direct damage is decent, and at 4th level it gets pyrotechnics, at 6th sinking cloud and at 8th it gets EBT, phantasmal killer, and the orb spells, which can daze a person for a round.

Its 5th level spells are all junk.
For 6th level spells it gets acid fog, and circle of death
7th finger of death, sunburst, waves of exhaustion.
8th scintallating pattern
9th Elemental swarm, prismatic sphere, wail of the banshee,

So it get s a decent spell at every spell level except for 1 and  5.

[The Lurker]

I really have to ask about the healer and warmage.
Do you take into account the healers ability to use corrupt/sanctified spells?

Nope.  Corrupt/sanctified spells are silly for the most part.  And they are something open to EVERY prep caster, so no real gain for being a healer.

What is it about the warmage that makes you think he is a full 2 tiers below dread necro and beguiler? In the early levels direct damage is decent, and at 4th level it gets pyrotechnics, at 6th sinking cloud and at 8th it gets EBT, phantasmal killer, and the orb spells, which can daze a person for a round.

Dread necromancers get MOAR UNDEAD LEGIONS as a class feature.
Beguilers get to be rogues on the side as well as having fuck tons of utility and a pretty solid spell list.

Pyrotechnics blows, stinking cloud is good, EBT is good, phantasmal killer is just kinda sucky, orbs suck, and daze person sucks.

EBT and stinking cloud are pretty much the best spells on the entire warmage list.  Not much.

Its 5th level spells are all junk.
For 6th level spells it gets acid fog, and circle of death
7th finger of death, sunburst, waves of exhaustion.
8th scintallating pattern
9th Elemental swarm, prismatic sphere, wail of the banshee,

Of these, acid fog and prismatic sphere are the only ones worth casting and prismatic sphere isn't even that good.

So it get s a decent spell at every spell level except for 1 and  5.

Looks like a pretty crappy spell list except for like 3 spells.  Beguilers and dread necros get a lot more utility, better class features, and for at least the first half of the game have better spells than sorcerers.  Warmage *isn't* as good as a sorcerer except at maybe level 8 (because EBT is sweet).

[kalaskaagathas]

I'm somewhat confused by your wording for Tier 3 - they specialize "in a specialty that is straight up inferior" (at least when compared to the higher tiers), but what are they capable of?  They are more powerful than Tier 4s, which you give a "4/10 wins on the same game test" ratio (could you explain what "the same game test" means?), so are they 5/10, 7/10, higher?  Do they 'usually have an Awesome, level appropriate effect to contribute', or only 'sometimes...' or what?  I'd just appreciate a bit of clarification.

[The Lurker]

I'm somewhat confused by your wording for Tier 3 - they specialize "in a specialty that is straight up inferior" (at least when compared to the higher tiers), but what are they capable of?  They are more powerful than Tier 4s, which you give a "4/10 wins on the same game test" ratio (could you explain what "the same game test" means?), so are they 5/10, 7/10, higher?  Do they 'usually have an Awesome, level appropriate effect to contribute', or only 'sometimes...' or what?  I'd just appreciate a bit of clarification.

I mean that they are either melee specialists or casters that don't get quite as awesome spells at every level, but generally competent.  The Same Game test is where you grab ten CR = character level encounters for a class and see how many they can win against.  A balanced class wins 5.  A class that is too strong wins more than 5.  A class that wins less than 5 is too weak, but anywhere in the 4/10 to 6/10 range is close enough to balanced for most games.  Is that a little clearer?

[kalaskaagathas]

Alright, and where do Tier 3s generally fall on that scale?

[The Lurker]

Alright, and where do Tier 3s generally fall on that scale?

The last time I ran the tests?  4 or 5 wins out of 10 (depends on the class and which specific set of encounters we used).  Tier 1 classes pretty much all win 6/10 (except maybe artificer; I've never run the same game test on the artificer because it's such a pain in the ass class to stat a middle of the road example artificer).

[JaronK]

For the record, a mod told me the Tier thread was going to be locked due to size and that I had the option to repost it.  But keep trying to latch on and copy it.  That's cute.

And you're still calling the Factotum worse than the class it was designed to upgrade and replace (Rogue)... and you still have never played a Factotum.  Also, putting the Bard, Factotum, and Swordsage in a catagory you describe only as being "Competant in area of speciality" and "typically a one trick pony" is just bizarre. 

But hey, if a nearly unbeatable initiative combined with the ability to launch Solid Fog and Cloudkill in the surprise round is your idea of weaker than a Rogue... oh right, that's TO right?  Even though every Factotum beyond a certain level can do it?

JaronK

[Peter]

For the record, a mod told me the Tier thread was going to be locked due to size and that I had the option to repost it.  But keep trying to latch on and copy it.  That's cute.

And you're still calling the Factotum worse than the class it was designed to upgrade and replace (Rogue)... and you still have never played a Factotum.  Also, putting the Bard, Factotum, and Swordsage in a catagory you describe only as being "Competant in area of speciality" and "typically a one trick pony" is just bizarre. 

But hey, if a nearly unbeatable initiative combined with the ability to launch Solid Fog and Cloudkill in the surprise round is your idea of weaker than a Rogue... oh right, that's TO right?  Even though every Factotum beyond a certain level can do it?

JaronK

Foreward
This system is to help you balance your campaign so that everyone is able to face roughly the same power in challenges (basically, so nobody is too powerful or not powerful enough and they can all contribute in encounters).  This is *not* a system about breaking the game or exploits (because exploits break the game too).  I am defining breaking the game as one of too things:
1) Making appropriate encounters trivial (examples include explosive runes bombs, shrink item bombs, wish economy without book of gears, basically anything that gets arbritrary really)
2) Things that make the PC unable to play the same game.  An example of this is the monk.  There is literally nothing you can do to make him play the same game as a beguiler.

Other things this is not about:
High level optimization.  If you're actually needing my help to balance your campaign with a tier system, you straight up don't know enough to make top end optimized characters.  I am going to assume moderate competence (such as being able to figure out which spells in the PHB are really awesome on wizards).

*cough*

[dark_samuari]

Other things this is not about:
High level optimization.  If you're actually needing my help to balance your campaign with a tier system, you straight up don't know enough to make top end optimized characters.  I am going to assume moderate competence (such as being able to figure out which spells in the PHB are really awesome on wizards).

I think we need to come to a fair consensuses about that this fully entails.

[Peter]

Other things this is not about:
High level optimization.  If you're actually needing my help to balance your campaign with a tier system, you straight up don't know enough to make top end optimized characters.  I am going to assume moderate competence (such as being able to figure out which spells in the PHB are really awesome on wizards).

I think we need to come to a fair consensuses about that this fully entails.

I'd assume that this means people inexperienced enough to need a Tier system are also inexperienced enough that they don't actually know about iajutsu focus or font of inspiration (one being from a 3.0 sourcebook and the other being from an onlne article).

[JaronK]

Peter, I'm not sure what you're implying.  That thing about having a super high initiative and then casting Solid Fog and Cloudkill wasn't optimization.  All Factotums can do that at higher levels.  It's just combining their level 8 ability with two of their (core available) spells, plus factoring in the fact that they're an Int and Dex class with Int + Dex to initiative.  No feats needed, including Font of Inspiration (it only costs 5 Insp points to do what I said).  There's absolutely no optimization going on there.

Unless you're saying that we simply don't count abilities that can beat encounters, but in that case the Barbarian becomes very weak, as his primary thing is smashing the heck out of enemies.  If we ignore Barbarian damage, what is the Barbarian?

JaronK

[dark_samuari]

Other things this is not about:
High level optimization.  If you're actually needing my help to balance your campaign with a tier system, you straight up don't know enough to make top end optimized characters.  I am going to assume moderate competence (such as being able to figure out which spells in the PHB are really awesome on wizards).

I think we need to come to a fair consensuses about that this fully entails.

I'd assume that this means people inexperienced enough to need a Tier system are also inexperienced enough that they don't actually know about iajutsu focus or font of inspiration (one being from a 3.0 sourcebook and the other being from an onlne article).

But assumptions can carrying us into unknown territory. What's medium level optimization and how is different from low & high levels, where is the boundary? And how does this factor in an inexperience player navigating guides and handbooks? If I'm new to playing a factotum I may indeed not know about the power that lies with iajuitsu focus and the gnome quick blade, but I would have enough sense to research the class which would bring me to any of the Factotum handbooks/guides (which would point out the evident optimization tricks). 

[The_Mad_Linguist]

We're writing for an audience that

A) Reads guides
and
B) Has internet access.

Therefore, wizards.com web enhancements are actually more kosher than book references, since they're accessible for free.

Similarly, easy-to-pull-off tricks mentioned in handbooks should be taken into account, since our audience is already going to be looking them up.

[Kaelik]

Peter, I'm not sure what you're implying.  That thing about having a super high initiative and then casting Solid Fog and Cloudkill wasn't optimization.  All Factotums can do that at higher levels.  It's just combining their level 8 ability with two of their (core available) spells, plus factoring in the fact that they're an Int and Dex class with Int + Dex to initiative.  No feats needed, including Font of Inspiration (it only costs 5 Insp points to do what I said).  There's absolutely no optimization going on there.

Unless you're saying that we simply don't count abilities that can beat encounters, but in that case the Barbarian becomes very weak, as his primary thing is smashing the heck out of enemies.  If we ignore Barbarian damage, what is the Barbarian?

Well you can do that by spending almost half your spells for the day including you best one as a 13th level character.

So I did a quick skim of CR 13 monsters in the SRD, only three of the take more than one round to escape. Cryo Hydra, Pyro Hydra, and Iron Golem. Everything else gets out in a single round. And the Iron Golem is immune.

So by spending 3/5ths of your spells for the day, you can beat 1/6th of the CR 13 monsters. But don't worry you aren't totally useless, you also take away a standard or move action and a few HP, probably less HP than a Sword and Board Fighters attack, but whatever.

See how the level you can do things is also important and being way behind on spells sucks?

[Psychic Robot]

Why are lurks Tier 6?  I know they're not great, but I'm pretty sure they could kick a fighter's ass.