Author Topic: Tier System For Classes (Repost)  (Read 515020 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Kaelik

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 704
    • Email
Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #680 on: March 20, 2011, 08:48:52 PM »
If we're comparing Dread Necromancers with the necessary two Arcane Disciples to get the spells to Planar Bind Efrettis and such, then we should be comparing them to a Sorcerer who uses Mage of the Arcane Order to get more spells on his list (that's about equivalent) and can do the exact thing... plus cast the rest of the Wizard list.  The DN is still behind, and noticeably so.  Whatever you do with optimization for one, do it for the rest too before comparing.

1) Point of fact, only Magic Circle is needed to Planar Bind Efreeti.

2) Compared to a Sorcerer with Mage of the Arcane Order, Dread Necromancers are pretty much right on par. You tend to value the potential to cast the spell in just the right circumstance over the actuality of having the spell, and using it. The hypothetical ability to cast a spell a spell is much less than the actual usefulness of the spell in most cases.

Meanwhile, the Favored Soul can have whatever the strongest Cleric spells allowed in your game are.  That's absolutely amazing.

The strongest Cleric spells are not that impressive, especially off a very poorly made dual casting attribute class.

You're forgeting one little detail there. Altough Dread Necros do have the Planar Binding line, they don't have either Dimensional Anchor or Magic Circle against Alignment. So your planar bindings are allowing SR and the outsiders can simply teleport/planeshift away instead of becoming your monster. Not very effecient.

Except that they have easy access to those spells.

And then the Dread Necro also lacks all the fancy divinations, high mobility, misdirection and contigencies that puts the original fullcasters on top. It's actually possible a swordsage could get the jump into a dread necro and slice it into pieces, instead of slamming into an Alarm, Rope Trick or Astral Projection, or the Dread Necro simply haved divined his coming the day before.

Except when it Planar Binds it, sure. But frankly, losing out on tricks is not a big deal when being compared to classes with no tricks at all. It still has the best trick in the game, and that's all it needs to duplicate any other trick, if it wanted to, and in a game with no tricks, it just wins D&D through being more powerful than Sorcerers and Swordsages and Factotums and Favored Souls.

The infinite healing is kinda useless in combat, and costs you a feat, wich the Dread Necro is quite hungry for. Shirt of Wraith Stalking is a 6K item that renders all your mass produced undead useless (and a factotum can actually use divination to predict he'll be fighting mass undeads, and get one since he's at it).

Yes, it is useless in combat (after very low levels) it's still there out of combat from level one for free at literally no cost, instead of level 11, or spending a spell known, or getting black sand through some method (IE Clerics, Free, Favored Souls spell known).

Meanwhile what does the sorceror cares that the Dread Necro knows 3 times as much spells? The sorceror will know the spells that matter like teleport, contigency, Wings of Cover, Dispel Magic, Polymorphs, ect, ect

Not sure that those are any better than what the Dread Necro has, which is the point. Chicanery is cool and all, but if you can't do the normal killing people stuff, you are not that great.

Now you're right that the Favored Soul is looking bad on this, because the cleric spell list isn't as good as the wizard/spell list, and the favored soul can't cheat into geting wizard/sorceror spells trough Domains, and he doesn't even have turn undead to fuel DMM. But you're also exagerating the Dread Necro power, as he gets a lot of redudant stuff, and lacks several of the best fullcaster tricks.

Tricks are not what I'm interested. Winning encounters is. Dread Necromancers do that in spades.

X-Codes

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3941
Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #681 on: March 20, 2011, 09:11:48 PM »
Except when it Planar Binds it, sure. But frankly, losing out on tricks is not a big deal when being compared to classes with no tricks at all. It still has the best trick in the game, and that's all it needs to duplicate any other trick, if it wanted to, and in a game with no tricks, it just wins D&D through being more powerful than Sorcerers and Swordsages and Factotums and Favored Souls.
Yes, Dread Necromancers can easily obtain access to pretty much any and all spells on the Sor/Wiz list with the right combination of feats, but there's a huge problem with this argument.  Any given Dread Necromancer can only obtain access to a select few of those powerful spells, not all of them, and they have to expend resources to do so.  Those are resources not going to metamagic feats or similar generic bonuses for all casters.

A Sorcerer, on the other hand, has them all, right out of the box.  They also have stuff like Arcane Fusion to up the number of spells they can crank out each round, and they're not spending all their feat slots to get this stuff, so they can pick up the supporting feats necessary to make their tactics really shine.

Favored Souls could very well be the lowest of the T2's, but they're still more powerful than the DN.  They have animate dead like the DN and save-or-lose spells like the DN, and they also have access to some more versatile buffs than the DN.  If you build them a certain way, they're even capable of animating the dead better than the DN is, especially a DN that spends all their secondary resources trying to out-Sorcerer a Sorcerer.

DN's are good, hence their T3 ranking.  That said, they're T3.  They're not going to smash a campaign, unless it's by bogging it down with over-micro-management of their skeletal horde.

Littha

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2155
    • Email
Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #682 on: March 20, 2011, 09:28:30 PM »
As much as I like dread necromancers the only time they are better than a sorcerer is when they dabble with rainbows...

ninjarabbit

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1442
    • Email
Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #683 on: March 20, 2011, 09:32:09 PM »
Another point is that favored souls can dump wis as long as they don't pick spells with savs DCs, like buffs, summons, and restorative spells so MAD isn't there.

Conversely a beguiler or dread necro who's looking to expand his spell list via arcane disciple needs a 19 wis to be able to cast the domain spells, increasing MAD for those classes if they go this route.

oslecamo

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1940
Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #684 on: March 20, 2011, 09:53:51 PM »
Except that they have easy access to those spells.
See, this is the weak point of your argument. The Dread Necro tecnically has easy acess trough feats... But feats are a precious rare commodity. It means you can't pick all the cool corpsecrafter stuff, and meanwhile somebody like a sorceror can spend said feats in metamagic tricks for fun and profit.

Except when it Planar Binds it, sure.
Wich will cost you a lot of feats to make it work properly, or an actual payment.

But frankly, losing out on tricks is not a big deal when being compared to classes with no tricks at all. It still has the best trick in the game, and that's all it needs to duplicate any other trick, if it wanted to, and in a game with no tricks, it just wins D&D through being more powerful than Sorcerers and Swordsages and Factotums and Favored Souls.
I may agree with the others, but again explain how the dread necro beats the sorceror wich can stop time, divine, polymorph, teleport, all at the same time whitout burning a single one of his feats?


Yes, it is useless in combat (after very low levels) it's still there out of combat from level one for free at literally no cost, instead of level 11, or spending a spell known, or getting black sand through some method (IE Clerics, Free, Favored Souls spell known).
Or cheap wands of vigor. The DN self healing is cute at low levels, but quickly grows irrelevant. A couple thousand golds during your career is well worth one more feat.

Not sure that those are any better than what the Dread Necro has, which is the point. Chicanery is cool and all, but if you can't do the normal killing people stuff, you are not that great.
Polymorph by itself can kill stuff by turning you into nasty monsters. And heck, nothing is stoping the sorceror from picking some kill spells himself. He'll learn more than forty spells during his career. He can perfectly afford half a dozen kill spells.

Now the DN, does he really needs two dozen diferent Death effects? Not really. Complete redudancy. Specially when somebody with Death Ward appears. And they can't even dispel it whitout another feat.

Tricks are not what I'm interested. Winning encounters is. Dread Necromancers do that in spades.
Well sure if you're in straight on kill-loot-heal-rinse and repeat, the DN is pretty good. But the sorceror also does it. And then gets tricks too. You just have to pick your spells known carefully.

And then the sorceror still has his feats free to play with.

Kaelik

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 704
    • Email
Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #685 on: March 20, 2011, 10:07:00 PM »
Yes, Dread Necromancers can easily obtain access to pretty much any and all spells on the Sor/Wiz list with the right combination of feats, but there's a huge problem with this argument.  Any given Dread Necromancer can only obtain access to a select few of those powerful spells, not all of them, and they have to expend resources to do so.  Those are resources not going to metamagic feats or similar generic bonuses for all casters.

Metamagic feats without reduction cheese are rarely even that good. A Dread Necromancer can obtain access to a large set of spells through feats, A sorcerer can obtain access to a small set of spells by specifically picking them at the exclusion of all other spells. But the Dread Necromancer can also just buy an eternal wand of Magic Circle, and have that forever, and will, because they get Planar Binding.

A Sorcerer, on the other hand, has them all, right out of the box.  They also have stuff like Arcane Fusion to up the number of spells they can crank out each round, and they're not spending all their feat slots to get this stuff, so they can pick up the supporting feats necessary to make their tactics really shine.

No, a Sorcerer has the ones he spends spells known on. So for example, a Dread Necromancer who doesn't even spend a single feat on Arcane Disciple has, at level 12: Acid Fog, Create Undead, Circle of Death, Harm, and Planar Binding. Whereas a Sorcerer could have Contingency. And nothing else. Or Acid Fog, and nothing else. Or Planar Binding, and nothing else. Or some other good 6th level spell, but nothing else.

And yes, a Dread Necro could spend a feat to get Contingency at that level, and a spell of every other level, but even without that, he still has Planar Binding and several other things.

Favored Souls could very well be the lowest of the T2's, but they're still more powerful than the DN.  They have animate dead like the DN and save-or-lose spells like the DN, and they also have access to some more versatile buffs than the DN.

Save or loses of a worse list with lower saves. Color me unimpressed. They do have more versatile buffs (except for Planar Binding counting as a buff, since that's absurdly better, but we know how that goes.)

They're not going to smash a campaign, unless it's by bogging it down with over-micro-management of their skeletal horde.

Is that a joke? They have Planar Binding on their list. That means they instantly break the game in half as soon as they hit level 12, without even trying. They buy an eternal wand, bind Efeerti, and then Wish for whatever they want. Game broken. To say nothing of how having multiple Fire Giant Skeletons for free, and Shadows as your rebuked minions also ends the game. Dread Necros smash campaigns better than Favored Souls, and better that Sorcerers who don't choose Planar Binding as their one spell of level 6.

They literally tainted scholar the game with DC 3000 Magic Jars and Slay Livings at level 12.

See, this is the weak point of your argument. The Dread Necro tecnically has easy acess trough feats... But feats are a precious rare commodity. It means you can't pick all the cool corpsecrafter stuff, and meanwhile somebody like a sorceror can spend said feats in metamagic tricks for fun and profit.

Who's talking about feats. It takes zero feats.

Wich will cost you a lot of feats to make it work properly, or an actual payment.

Nope, no feats, no payment.

I may agree with the others, but again explain how the dread necro beats the sorceror wich can stop time, divine, polymorph, teleport, all at the same time whitout burning a single one of his feats?

Because at level 12, before the Sorcerer gets Time Stop he Planar Binds an Army, combined with his undead army, and kills the Sorcerer.

FYI, If you want to tell me that the Tiers are representative of PvP, say that, and I'll tell you the problems with it as that, but if it's about facing CR appropriate encounters, your ability to run away when losing is not so impressive.

Polymorph by itself can kill stuff by turning you into nasty monsters. And heck, nothing is stoping the sorceror from picking some kill spells himself. He'll learn more than forty spells during his career. He can perfectly afford half a dozen kill spells.

Polymorph on the Sorcerer is rarely going to work out to killing stuff well. Polymorphs limitations to Ex abilities gives very few CR inappropriate tricks, and lack of access to the better buffs results in not being as combat efficient.

Specially when somebody with Death Ward appears. And they can't even dispel it whitout another feat.

Maybe you should read the Dread Necromancers spell list, so that you can find out how incredibly funny that is.

Well sure if you're in straight on kill-loot-heal-rinse and repeat, the DN is pretty good. But the sorceror also does it. And then gets tricks too. You just have to pick your spells known carefully.

The Sorcerer doesn't do any of that as well as the Dread Necro at any level. And since going and doing things with an army of Bound outsiders and dead minions is incredibly game breakingly awesome, and results in winning D&D, Being able to do that better than a Sorcerer is pretty darn good.

And then the sorceror still has his feats free to play with.

So does the Dread Necromancer.

JaronK

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4039
Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #686 on: March 20, 2011, 10:28:20 PM »
If we're comparing Dread Necromancers with the necessary two Arcane Disciples to get the spells to Planar Bind Efrettis and such, then we should be comparing them to a Sorcerer who uses Mage of the Arcane Order to get more spells on his list (that's about equivalent) and can do the exact thing... plus cast the rest of the Wizard list.  The DN is still behind, and noticeably so.  Whatever you do with optimization for one, do it for the rest too before comparing.

1) Point of fact, only Magic Circle is needed to Planar Bind Efreeti.

2) Compared to a Sorcerer with Mage of the Arcane Order, Dread Necromancers are pretty much right on par. You tend to value the potential to cast the spell in just the right circumstance over the actuality of having the spell, and using it. The hypothetical ability to cast a spell a spell is much less than the actual usefulness of the spell in most cases.

...no.  Free unfettered access to the entire Wizard/Sorcerer list is not "on par" with a regular Dread Necromancer, even one who spends every single feat on Arcane Disciples to get the best spells he can find.  Claiming that is exactly like claiming Dread Necromancers are on par with Wizards.  It's just not the case at all.

Quote
Meanwhile, the Favored Soul can have whatever the strongest Cleric spells allowed in your game are.  That's absolutely amazing.

The strongest Cleric spells are not that impressive, especially off a very poorly made dual casting attribute class.

Why do you keep shooting down the FS for having dual stat casting, when your big argument for the Dread Necromancer is to turn them into a dual stat caster?  You do realize Arcane Disciple requires Wisdom, right?  To get full advantage from it you need Wis 19.  And remember, Favored Souls can dump Wis entirely if they don't rely on save based spells.  Though I'm shocked that you'd say the strongest Cleric spells aren't that impressive.  There's some REALLY amazing ones out there.  Also, check page 13 of Dragon Magic... which lets FS's trade Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization (big loss) for claw attacks and two spells off the Sorcerer list (hi there, Wings of Flurry).  Note that one of the two spells has to be level 1 (Grease?) but the other one can be level 6 or below.

Quote
You're forgeting one little detail there. Altough Dread Necros do have the Planar Binding line, they don't have either Dimensional Anchor or Magic Circle against Alignment. So your planar bindings are allowing SR and the outsiders can simply teleport/planeshift away instead of becoming your monster. Not very effecient.

Except that they have easy access to those spells.

And now we're back to needing two Arcane Disciples.  And effectively dual stat casting.  And since you keep assuming all day healing, Tomb Tainted Soul is in there too (I'd use that feat too, but the feat costs are getting pretty high, so you should factor that into your calculations).  And remember, a Warmage can bind Efreetis with two Arcane Disciples too... do you believe Warmages are too low as well?  Remember, this is about the balance of classes compared to other classes.  You have to even everything out... no showing favoritism for one class or another.

Quote
The infinite healing is kinda useless in combat, and costs you a feat, wich the Dread Necro is quite hungry for. Shirt of Wraith Stalking is a 6K item that renders all your mass produced undead useless (and a factotum can actually use divination to predict he'll be fighting mass undeads, and get one since he's at it).

Yes, it is useless in combat (after very low levels) it's still there out of combat from level one for free at literally no cost, instead of level 11, or spending a spell known, or getting black sand through some method (IE Clerics, Free, Favored Souls spell known).

Crusaders (same tier) get it at level 1, only it's good in combat even at low levels and works on all of your party even if they didn't go Tomb Tainted or Undead.  Remember, Charnel Touch only heals 1 hp per standard action at low levels, so it's useless in combat even at low levels.  Binders can bind Buer to get healing that works on the rest of your party too, though that's a bit later (and when they can get Zceryll they can do effective in combat heals as well).  And note that it's Caster Level 11, not Character Level 11.  With one shot CL boosts (like the Bead of Kharma) it's pretty easy to get those guys MUCH earlier if you're a divine caster.  Really, while the free healing is nice, it's not exactly off the charts amazing.

Quote
Not sure that those are any better than what the Dread Necro has, which is the point. Chicanery is cool and all, but if you can't do the normal killing people stuff, you are not that great.

...
Tricks are not what I'm interested. Winning encounters is. Dread Necromancers do that in spades.

Wings of Flurry.  Game, set, match.  It's not like Sorcs or Favored Souls need a huge variety of different spells that kill stuff.  Wings of Flurry (available to both, thanks to Dragon Magic, but not available to any other classes) pretty much handles the whole "kill people stuff" once you can cast it.  I'd throw in Glitterdust too, but the secret to playing a good Sorc or Favored Soul is to have dramatically different spells, not to have 10 different ways to squish people.  You probably want to make sure you have a no SR spell as well, obviously.  After that, it's all about utility and protection for other sorts of situations (Alter Self, Wings of Cover, etc).

Plus, I've found the DN is missing a lot from its combat ending repertoire.  For example, they have a lot of trouble with Constructs... most of their attack spells are based around fear effects and negative energy and the like, and are designed to hurt living things only.  They've of course got specific undead killers.  But non living things which aren't undead are a major issue.  They're also missing solid defensive spells, relying instead on skeletons and zombies to provide cover... but that has all the usual problems that relying on a sword and board Fighter for cover has.  

And I notice you're focused only on level 12+ (or 10+ if you use Versatile Spellcaster tricks).  Most games are played below level 10... what do you think the Dread Necromancer does then?  If everything you're objecting to is around Planar Binding, what do you think of them without that one trick?  And have you actually played one for any significant period of time?

And Kaelik, I'm confused that you keep using Planar Binding of Efreetis and the like as an argument for the power of Dread Necromancers, but keep assuming that metamagic reducers shouldn't count and will be nerfed.  I can't think of any game that would allow the former and ban the latter, as the former is FAR more abusive and game breaking.  If you're going to count Planar Binding Wish Loops, metamagic reduction really should be in play.  At which point you have to consider Sorcerers with Arcane Thesis: Wings of Flurry, Sculpt Spell, and Twin Spell in your calculations for who ends encounters better.  And you should be counting in Favored Souls with a Sacred Exorcist dip making good use of their Charisma needs by rocking out with DMM.

JaronK
« Last Edit: March 20, 2011, 10:34:59 PM by JaronK »

oslecamo

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1940
Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #687 on: March 20, 2011, 10:44:15 PM »
Who's talking about feats. It takes zero feats.
You lost me there. You just confirmed you're needing Arcane Disciple.

Nope, no feats, no payment.
Excuse me, but planar binding does require payment for the services of binded outsiders. The Dread Necron doesn't all have the mind control stuff and debuffs to make them their slaves.

Because at level 12, before the Sorcerer gets Time Stop he Planar Binds an Army, combined with his undead army, and kills the Sorcerer.
And what's exactly stoping the sorceror from geting his own planar binded army again? And how are you exactly finding the sorceror? And how are your armies saving you from the soroceror simply scrying and killing you?

FYI, If you want to tell me that the Tiers are representative of PvP, say that, and I'll tell you the problems with it as that, but if it's about facing CR appropriate encounters, your ability to run away when losing is not so impressive.
Sorcerors don't run. They kill CR-apropriate stuff just well as long as you didn't literally burn their spells known with stuff like fireball.

Polymorph on the Sorcerer is rarely going to work out to killing stuff well. Polymorphs limitations to Ex abilities gives very few CR inappropriate tricks, and lack of access to the better buffs results in not being as combat efficient.
Haste, Greater Heroism, Mindblank... Arcanes have plenty of powerfull buffs. And of course picking the right form for the right oponent.

Mind you, depending on the reading, spellcasting is an Ex ability, and there's several "cast as X" monsters out there. Have fun using polymorph to unlock all other core castings!

Maybe you should read the Dread Necromancers spell list, so that you can find out how incredibly funny that is.
Ok, you got me there. Still, Dispel magic as 4th level spell and GDP as 5th level spell is kinda bizzarre.

The Sorcerer doesn't do any of that as well as the Dread Necro at any level. And since going and doing things with an army of Bound outsiders and dead minions is incredibly game breakingly awesome, and results in winning D&D, Being able to do that better than a Sorcerer is pretty darn good.
Except again the sorceror can get his own army of outsiders and heck, even his army of undeads if he feels like it. And then actually knows where to point them to. And can make sure his own ass is safe instead of being sniped from some scry and die.

So does the Dread Necromancer.

Yes, trough heavy item use that even a commoner could abuse. That's not impressive on the part of the DN. It's impressive on the part of magic items. You may just as well claim monks are awesome because they can get loads of wands and UMD lots of buffs.

ninjarabbit

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1442
    • Email
Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #688 on: March 20, 2011, 10:48:50 PM »
And to expand on JaronK's point a dread nerco who's spending feats on tomb tainted soul and arcane disciple isn't using those feats for corpsecrafting or other uses like metamagicing.

Speaking of which the dread necro isn't animating his undead army until level 8, something the favored soul can start doing at level 6.

Benly

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 436
    • Email
Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #689 on: March 20, 2011, 11:07:55 PM »
Speaking of which the dread necro isn't animating his undead army until level 8, something the favored soul can start doing at level 6.

Yeah, the dread necro, for all that he's good at it once it happens, gets access to his signature strategy last out of all the full-casting classes that ever get Animate Dead, tied with sorcerers. Until then, you've got a host of touch attacks, various ways to inflict fear, Ray of Enfeeblement/Exhaustion, a couple of debuffs, a pile of undead-specialized stuff and whatever Advanced Learning you picked. Any Corpsecrafter feats are dead feats until then, and Arcane Disciple spells are only 1 per level per day so they're not really going to be life-changing in terms of your combat options. I like the DN, don't get me wrong, but it's very limited for the first half of its career or so. After that.. well, it's still limited but it picks up some more interesting tricks.

ninjarabbit

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1442
    • Email
Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #690 on: March 20, 2011, 11:18:15 PM »
Speaking of which the dread necro isn't animating his undead army until level 8, something the favored soul can start doing at level 6.

Yeah, the dread necro, for all that he's good at it once it happens, gets access to his signature strategy last out of all the full-casting classes that ever get Animate Dead, tied with sorcerers. Until then, you've got a host of touch attacks, various ways to inflict fear, Ray of Enfeeblement/Exhaustion, a couple of debuffs, a pile of undead-specialized stuff and whatever Advanced Learning you picked. Any Corpsecrafter feats are dead feats until then, and Arcane Disciple spells are only 1 per level per day so they're not really going to be life-changing in terms of your combat options. I like the DN, don't get me wrong, but it's very limited for the first half of its career or so. After that.. well, it's still limited but it picks up some more interesting tricks.

Hell even warlocks can start animating at level 6.

Kaelik

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 704
    • Email
Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #691 on: March 20, 2011, 11:22:23 PM »
You lost me there. You just confirmed you're needing Arcane Disciple.

No, I just said, hey, I can get those spells without using Arcane Disciple.

Excuse me, but planar binding does require payment for the services of binded outsiders. The Dread Necron doesn't all have the mind control stuff and debuffs to make them their slaves.

Unless you use the whole "Charisma check" rules for the spell right in it's description.

And what's exactly stoping the sorceror from geting his own planar binded army again? And how are you exactly finding the sorceror? And how are your armies saving you from the soroceror simply scrying and killing you?

Because this isn't PVP, as I just said. Or alternatively, since this is apparently a game in which Planar Binding is usable at all, probably with my gated Elemental Weirds, and what's stopping him, well, nothing, he might do it himself, and it will be his only level 6 spell, and he will be exactly the same, except worse in everything, except both equally broken thanks to our armies and items. But since I'm arguing that they are approximately equal in power, the fact that both of them are equally as powerful in this hypothetical situation is not evidence against me.

Sorcerors don't run. They kill CR-apropriate stuff just well as long as you didn't literally burn their spells known with stuff like fireball.

I agree, they kill stuff just as well as Dread Necros.

Except again the sorceror can get his own army of outsiders and heck, even his army of undeads if he feels like it. And then actually knows where to point them to. And can make sure his own ass is safe instead of being sniped from some scry and die.

Just like a Dread Necro with Planar Binding. Making them basically equals.

Yes, trough heavy item use that even a commoner could abuse. That's not impressive on the part of the DN. It's impressive on the part of magic items. You may just as well claim monks are awesome because they can get loads of wands and UMD lots of buffs.

Or, instead I can say that we should judge classes based on some metric besides arbitrary ability to destroy the game.

...no.  Free unfettered access to the entire Wizard/Sorcerer list is not "on par" with a regular Dread Necromancer, even one who spends every single feat on Arcane Disciples to get the best spells he can find.  Claiming that is exactly like claiming Dread Necromancers are on par with Wizards.  It's just not the case at all.

It's not free or unfettered or the entire Wizard Sorcerer list, so that statement literally could not be more wrong.

Why do you keep shooting down the FS for having dual stat casting, when your big argument for the Dread Necromancer is to turn them into a dual stat caster?  You do realize Arcane Disciple requires Wisdom, right?  To get full advantage from it you need Wis 19.  And remember, Favored Souls can dump Wis entirely if they don't rely on save based spells.

I am not advocating turning anyone into a dual stat caster. And yes, if they don't use any spells with a saving throw, they can dump Wisdom, but then they can't use any spell with a saving throw.

Though I'm shocked that you'd say the strongest Cleric spells aren't that impressive.  There's some REALLY amazing ones out there.

And yet, you didn't name any.

And now we're back to needing two Arcane Disciples.  And effectively dual stat casting.  And since you keep assuming all day healing, Tomb Tainted Soul is in there too (I'd use that feat too, but the feat costs are getting pretty high, so you should factor that into your calculations).

Or zero, and single casting stat.

Crusaders (same tier) get it at level 1, only it's good in combat even at low levels and works on all of your party even if they didn't go Tomb Tainted or Undead.  Remember, Charnel Touch only heals 1 hp per standard action at low levels, so it's useless in combat even at low levels.  Binders can bind Buer to get healing that works on the rest of your party too, though that's a bit later (and when they can get Zceryll they can do effective in combat heals as well).  And note that it's Caster Level 11, not Character Level 11.  With one shot CL boosts (like the Bead of Kharma) it's pretty easy to get those guys MUCH earlier if you're a divine caster.  Really, while the free healing is nice, it's not exactly off the charts amazing.

Binders give up a lot to bind those two. Charnel Touch is free, in addition to full spellcasting. Last I checked, Crusaders do not have that. I didn't say it was a big deal, I listed it along with some, but not all, and honestly, not the most important or powerful, free extra powers they get in addition to being full spellcasters with a long and good spell list.

Wings of Flurry.  Game, set, match.  It's not like Sorcs or Favored Souls need a huge variety of different spells that kill stuff.  Wings of Flurry (available to both, thanks to Dragon Magic, but not available to any other classes) pretty much handles the whole "kill people stuff" once you can cast it.  I'd throw in Glitterdust too, but the secret to playing a good Sorc or Favored Soul is to have dramatically different spells, not to have 10 different ways to squish people.  You probably want to make sure you have a no SR spell as well, obviously.  After that, it's all about utility and protection for other sorts of situations (Alter Self, Wings of Cover, etc).

Wings of Flurry isn't as good as you like to pretend it is when you are comparing Sorcerers to Dread Necros. You like to pretent it is so good, that it is so much better than EBT/Fear/ect. But it's not. It's a one round stun with some medicore damage. Dread Necros have more than one round cripples, and infinite beat sticks for damage.

Plus, I've found the DN is missing a lot from its combat ending repertoire.  For example, they have a lot of trouble with Constructs... most of their attack spells are based around fear effects and negative energy and the like, and are designed to hurt living things only.  They've of course got specific undead killers.  But non living things which aren't undead are a major issue.  They're also missing solid defensive spells, relying instead on skeletons and zombies to provide cover... but that has all the usual problems that relying on a sword and board Fighter for cover has.

Oh woe is me. If 90% of constructs are giant bags of HP and attacks that lose to undead armies, the Dread Necro would easily defeat them, but since that's not true... Oh wait, yes it is. Anything else? (And yes, they miss out on solid defensive spells, and instead rely on solid walls of undead, and DR and immunities).

And I notice you're focused only on level 12+ (or 10+ if you use Versatile Spellcaster tricks).  Most games are played below level 10... what do you think the Dread Necromancer does then?  If everything you're objecting to is around Planar Binding, what do you think of them without that one trick?

Without that one trick, they still have more spells, and plenty good ones, than a Sorcerer at pretty much every level, and they still have infinite undead armies, and they still break the game. But I'm not the one claiming that not having bullshit tricks that break the game is why Dread Necromancers are not as good as Favored Souls or Sorcerers, and that classes should be judged based on their ability to pull out gamebreaking tricks.

And Kaelik, I'm confused that you keep using Planar Binding of Efreetis and the like as an argument for the power of Dread Necromancers, but keep assuming that metamagic reducers shouldn't count and will be nerfed.  I can't think of any game that would allow the former and ban the latter, as the former is FAR more abusive and game breaking.  If you're going to count Planar Binding Wish Loops, metamagic reduction really should be in play.  At which point you have to consider Sorcerers with Arcane Thesis: Wings of Flurry, Sculpt Spell, and Twin Spell in your calculations for who ends encounters better.  And you should be counting in Favored Souls with a Sacred Exorcist dip making good use of their Charisma needs by rocking out with DMM.

I never assumed that metareducers shouldn't count if Planar Binding counts. My point is that:

Without bullshit cheese, the Dread Necro is better than Favored Soul, and about as good as the Sorcerer.

With bullshit cheese, the Dread Necro is better than the Favored Soul and the Sorcerer.

Absolutely your Sorcerer with Arcane Thesis: Wings of Flurry, Sculpt Spell, Twin Spell, (Repeat Spell is also a great meta for Wings of Flurry by the way) can be compared against the Dread Necro with Planar Binding for who wins encounters better. And the answer is... Dread Necro, sorry +arbitrarily large number Belt of Magnificence gives 100% success rate against all encounters.

The_Mad_Linguist

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8780
  • Simulated Thing
Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #692 on: March 21, 2011, 12:23:48 AM »
You lost me there. You just confirmed you're needing Arcane Disciple.

No, I just said, hey, I can get those spells without using Arcane Disciple.

Excuse me, but planar binding does require payment for the services of binded outsiders. The Dread Necron doesn't all have the mind control stuff and debuffs to make them their slaves.

Unless you use the whole "Charisma check" rules for the spell right in it's description.
Quote
unreasonable commands are never agreed to
Linguist, Mad, Unique, none of these things am I
My custom class: The Priest of the Unseen Host
Planetouched Handbook
Want to improve your character?  Then die.

JaronK

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4039
Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #693 on: March 21, 2011, 12:36:25 AM »
Or, instead I can say that we should judge classes based on some metric besides arbitrary ability to destroy the game.

This entire time your whole justification for why Dread Necromancers are so amazing is that they can use Planar Binding.  Either drop that and judge them based on a game with slightly more sane limits, or don't complain about people using game destroying tricks in comparison.

Well, your other claim is that DNs destroy encounters, but having played one I can guarantee that for the most part, they don't (not compared to Sorcerers, anyway).  Sure, when they finally get Cloudkill (level 10) and Evard's Tentacles (level 8) they get a few effective spells, but before that, what have they really got for destroying encounters?

And why do you keep harping on the number of spells they have, as opposed to how effective those spells are?  Does anyone really care that they have Bane, Bestow Wound, Detect Undead, and Doom at level 1?  Or Death Knell, False Life, Gentle Repose, Ghoul Touch, and Scare at level 2?  They have a lot of useless trash in their list.  Cut that out and they have as many spells as a Sorcerer... but they don't get to pick the best of the best.  Sure, they've got some solid ones, but what level 2 spells do they have to compare to Glitterdust and Alter Self?  What at level 1 is competing with Grease and Colorspray?  

Quote
...no.  Free unfettered access to the entire Wizard/Sorcerer list is not "on par" with a regular Dread Necromancer, even one who spends every single feat on Arcane Disciples to get the best spells he can find.  Claiming that is exactly like claiming Dread Necromancers are on par with Wizards.  It's just not the case at all.

It's not free or unfettered or the entire Wizard Sorcerer list, so that statement literally could not be more wrong.

Perhaps you need to read over Mage of the Arcane Order again.  He may not get every spell any time he wants (there's per day limits), but he can get what he wants when he needs it.  He gets the spell he needs with a single full round action.  That's enough to find out you're about to fight a dragon and just take a round to get Shivering Touch, or find out you really need to get somewhere now and grab a teleportation spell.  It means you never have to spend a spell known on a utility spell ever again... just take as spells known only the stuff you want to use every day.  Everything else you can have.

Yeah, it's the whole Wizard/Sorc list, at your fingertips.  

Quote
I am not advocating turning anyone into a dual stat caster. And yes, if they don't use any spells with a saving throw, they can dump Wisdom, but then they can't use any spell with a saving throw.

But you are advocating dual stat.  You keep talking about how DNs are so great because they can use Arcane Disciple, which means they now need Wisdom for their casting.  Now they're Charisma/Wisdom.  Every time someone says you're requiring feats and wisdom casting you say you're not, but everytime you want to show how powerful Dread Necromancers are you bring up Planar Binding, which requires at least one Arcane Disciple (two, for many creatures) as well as a decent Wisdom score.  So which is it?

Quote
And yet, you didn't name any.

I would have thought it was obvious.  Miracle.  Planar Ally.  Black Sand.  Animate Dead (at level 3).  Bodak Birth.  Consumptive Field.  Desecrate (why is that not on the DN list?).  Haunt Shift.  Shivering Touch.  Lesser Mass Vigor.  Righteous Wrath of the Faithful.  Hero's Feast.  Freedom of Movement.  All the various return to life spells.  And so on.  There's PLENTY.

Quote
And now we're back to needing two Arcane Disciples.  And effectively dual stat casting.  And since you keep assuming all day healing, Tomb Tainted Soul is in there too (I'd use that feat too, but the feat costs are getting pretty high, so you should factor that into your calculations).

Or zero, and single casting stat.

See?  You need to pick one.  Either you're talking about Dread Necromancers with Arcane Disciples, or without.  Pick one.  If it's with, they get one trick that's usually banned in most games and are dual stat casters, plus they've burned two to three feats (you said they self heal too).  If it's zero feats as you say here, they can't do any of that Planar Binding stuff, and they can't self heal at all.

Quote
Binders give up a lot to bind those two.

What, precisely, do you think a Binder is giving up to Bind Zceryll?  Seriously, what the heck are you talking about?  That one vestige does more than virtually any other!  That's like saying a Wizard gives up a lot when he decides to cast Shivering Touch on a dragon.  Sure, he can't cast anything else in that slot, but he just killed a dragon in one hit, so who cares?  Buer means losing out on other vestiges just for this day, but as a Binder you pick whatever vestige would help out most.  Heck, with Expel Vestige you can always chuck Buer for something else if you need.

Quote
Charnel Touch is free, in addition to full spellcasting.

You mean free healing if you and the rest of your party took Tomb Tainted Soul.  But remember just before when you said "Zero" for the number of feats you were dedicating?  So you can't free heal yourself.  Charnel Touch isn't completely free, you spend a feat (or turn Necropolitan) for it.  It's a good idea to do this of course, but don't call it free.

Quote
Last I checked, Crusaders do not have that. I didn't say it was a big deal, I listed it along with some, but not all, and honestly, not the most important or powerful, free extra powers they get in addition to being full spellcasters with a long and good spell list.

You keep saying "full spellcaster" like that alone is amazing, but Healers are full spellcasters too, and so are Warmages.  What matters is the quality of spells, and while DNs have some decent ones, they're not Wizard or Cleric caliber (which is what most people assume when people say "full spellcaster") nor are they Sorc caliber.  Decide what sorts of DNs you're talking about here, as this is getting silly.

Quote
Wings of Flurry isn't as good as you like to pretend it is when you are comparing Sorcerers to Dread Necros. You like to pretent it is so good, that it is so much better than EBT/Fear/ect. But it's not. It's a one round stun with some medicore damage. Dread Necros have more than one round cripples, and infinite beat sticks for damage.

It does enough damage to kill the majority of even CR opponents in two hits (one with metamagic)... and denies actions in between those hits.  It does twice as much damage as most blast spells (on a save, it does the same damage).  It hits all enemies in an area but doesn't hit friends.  It hits the weakest of the higher level saves (Ref) and does a type of damage that's the least likely to be resisted. Yeah, it's an encounter killer, far more than Fear (too many high level enemies are immune to that) or EBT (useless on anything that's flying or strong enough to get around the grapple... which is more and more stuff at higher levels).  The "etc" you mention is probably Cloudkill, which is a solid spell to be sure but needs something else to keep people inside it or it's not very effective (EBT might help here, or not, depending on the monster).

And you're making it clear you haven't played a DN before when you refer to "infinite beat sticks for damage."  You don't even get any until level 8, and when you do get them they're MUCH weaker than normal stuff.  They lack the feats that make most mundane types strong (Shock Trooper, archery feats, etc).  They hit for pathetic damage.  You can't fit that many of them around any particular target.  It's hard to get ones that both fly and are actually useful for more than transport.  Mostly, what they have is a lot of hitpoints... that's about it.  Seriously, the damage output from your Animate Dead minions is really not going to end fights like you seem to think it will... plus they're not intelligent at all.

Quote
Oh woe is me. If 90% of constructs are giant bags of HP and attacks that lose to undead armies, the Dread Necro would easily defeat them, but since that's not true... Oh wait, yes it is. Anything else? (And yes, they miss out on solid defensive spells, and instead rely on solid walls of undead, and DR and immunities).

Consider the types of undead you're likely to have when you fight a construct vs the construct itself, and you'll realize those melt like butter and can't hurt them.  And DN DR matters at level 2, but that's about it... it doesn't scale up nearly fast enough to count as a reasonable defense against even CR monsters.  Nor are their immunities that important either (unless you go Necropolitan, but that's the race doing it, not the class).  Solid walls of undead can be bypassed like a sword and board Fighter.

Remember, I played one of these guys from 1 to 12 in a multi year campaign.  You do NOT have the defenses you think you have... and notice the short range of most of your spells.  

Quote
Without that one trick, they still have more spells, and plenty good ones, than a Sorcerer at pretty much every level, and they still have infinite undead armies, and they still break the game. But I'm not the one claiming that not having bullshit tricks that break the game is why Dread Necromancers are not as good as Favored Souls or Sorcerers, and that classes should be judged based on their ability to pull out gamebreaking tricks.

Yes, you really are.  You've mostly just been using Planar Binding as your great reason to judge DNs.  So I'd love to hear how you think a level 6 (just picking a random level here, if you prefer you can pick a different one) Dread Necromancer has plenty of good spells, and more of them, than a Sorcerer.  The DN has Ray of Exhaustion, Summon Undead III, Inflict Serious Wounds... and really not much else to work with there unless they got a particularly good Advanced Learning (I went with Ghoul Glyph).  Me, I'd use Imperious Command as a feat to get a good reuseable attack.  Meanwhile, the Sorc can almost certainly be using Glitterdust as a primary attack, which is plenty for the vast majority of encounters, and then pick and choose appropriate other spells for other situations (Alter Self and Wings of Cover are solid choices).

Quote
Without bullshit cheese, the Dread Necro is better than Favored Soul, and about as good as the Sorcerer.

With bullshit cheese, the Dread Necro is better than the Favored Soul and the Sorcerer.

Except I played a "without bullshit cheese" DN and you know what?  The Sorcerer was WAY out in front.  I found that with the DN, my limited spell range and lack of versatility really hurt.

Quote
Absolutely your Sorcerer with Arcane Thesis: Wings of Flurry, Sculpt Spell, Twin Spell, (Repeat Spell is also a great meta for Wings of Flurry by the way) can be compared against the Dread Necro with Planar Binding for who wins encounters better. And the answer is... Dread Necro, sorry +arbitrarily large number Belt of Magnificence gives 100% success rate against all encounters.

Didn't you JUST say "But I'm not the one claiming that not having bullshit tricks that break the game is why Dread Necromancers..."?  A blaster Sorc is hardly a game breaking bullshit trick (just a solid optimized archetypal caster), but a Dread Necromancer using Planar Binding with Arcane Disciple to get infinite wishes (and somehow using them to get a +arbitrary Belt of Magnificence despite that being too valuable for wish) absolutely is.  You want to compare a Sorc to that guy?  Compare one who did the same thing, except he spent his wealth on Knowstones and now can spontaneously cast the entire Wizard/Sorc list.  And heck, that's even legal with wish.

JaronK
« Last Edit: March 21, 2011, 12:38:10 AM by JaronK »

The_Mad_Linguist

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8780
  • Simulated Thing
Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #694 on: March 21, 2011, 12:43:10 AM »
Just a sidenote... IIRC, the 3.5 version of MotUH is limited to phb spells.
Linguist, Mad, Unique, none of these things am I
My custom class: The Priest of the Unseen Host
Planetouched Handbook
Want to improve your character?  Then die.

Bozwevial

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4497
  • Developing a relaxed attitude to danger.
Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #695 on: March 21, 2011, 01:03:51 AM »
Just a sidenote... IIRC, the 3.5 version of MotUH is limited to phb spells.
Correct (with the exception of whatever your DM will let you add), although I think you had Telekinesis in mind while typing.

JaronK

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4039
Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #696 on: March 21, 2011, 01:07:50 AM »
Just a sidenote... IIRC, the 3.5 version of MotUH is limited to phb spells.

Well, "any other spell on the wizard/sorcerer spell list in the Player's Handbook, as well as any additional spells designated by the DM."  So, I've always read that as more of a "no getting spells from books that aren't being used in your group!" sort of thing, but just in case you should obviously get spells known as needed from other books if the DM won't let you have them from the Spellpool.  Still, it's all of the PHB spells at the very least, and that should be plenty to deal with any situation. 

So perhaps you can't always get Shivering Touch that way, but you could get Planar Binding without spending a spell known... or Fabricate, or Wall of Stone, or Animate Dead, or any other of those spells that you really don't need to cast all the time but which are still really useful for utility.

JaronK

Kaelik

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 704
    • Email
Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #697 on: March 21, 2011, 02:08:22 AM »
This entire time your whole justification for why Dread Necromancers are so amazing is that they can use Planar Binding.

No, that was my response to the claim that Dread Necros have no game breaking.

Perhaps you need to read over Mage of the Arcane Order again.  He may not get every spell any time he wants (there's per day limits), but he can get what he wants when he needs it.

So you have admitted it is not free or unfettered, Now you can read the Mage of the Arcane Order, and see that it is PHB spells, not all spells. Also the levels that you actually get access to all those spells is not "level 1" or "level 7" the level you first get into the class.

Every time someone says you're requiring feats and wisdom casting you say you're not, but everytime you want to show how powerful Dread Necromancers are you bring up Planar Binding, which requires at least one Arcane Disciple (two, for many creatures) as well as a decent Wisdom score.  So which is it?
No it doesn't. Man this is hilarious, how are you even claiming to know anything at all about the game when you can't figure out how to Planar Bind any creature you can Planar Bind without taking Arcane Disciple at all.

I would have thought it was obvious.  Miracle.  Planar Ally.  Black Sand.  Animate Dead (at level 3).  Bodak Birth.  Consumptive Field.  Desecrate (why is that not on the DN list?).  Haunt Shift.  Shivering Touch.  Lesser Mass Vigor.  Righteous Wrath of the Faithful.  Hero's Feast.  Freedom of Movement.  All the various return to life spells.  And so on.  There's PLENTY.

So, in order: A spell that is only good for mimicing spells of other lists (or in the Favored Souls case, spells not known) at level 18+ and using a 9th level slot to do it. A spell that isn't even very good. A spell that is fine, for using once, and then never again, aka, buy a scroll, don't waste a spell known. A good spell sure, I would hate to have to choose it as my first spell of that level, but it's a good second or third. A spell you get at level 16, that gives you a CR 8 monster, like anyone cares, and not even one that's incorporeal, and so worse than Create Greater Undead in every way, a buff that isn't even good if not persisted. Yes, a good spell, if it was hard to get, that would matter, though I would never waste a spell known as a Favored Soul on it. A spell that isn't even good, but you obsess over, a touch range spell that doesn't even beat dragons who don't protect themselves against it that often, and doesn't beat Dragons who do play well at all, a buff that isn't even good if not Persisted, a buff that... you know what: ABTIEGINP, a buff that is definately not worth a spell known slot, and is only once a day. WOW! An actually good buff, way to go you, first one so far, a bunch of spells that suck, because greyhawking is awesome.

So... Two spells that are worth a spell known slot. Well, and Miracle, but level 18 doesn't impress me too much.

See?  You need to pick one.  Either you're talking about Dread Necromancers with Arcane Disciples, or without.  Pick one.  If it's with, they get one trick that's usually banned in most games and are dual stat casters, plus they've burned two to three feats (you said they self heal too).  If it's zero feats as you say here, they can't do any of that Planar Binding stuff, and they can't self heal at all.

1) You can Planar Bind anything without ever using a single feat on Arcane Disciple.

2) You are being disingenuous, even if it did in fact require two feats, you wouldn't spend those feats in a game that bans it. It's also actually an infinite number of tricks that the DM has to ban, but whatever. I also didn't say zero feats as in "has zero feats" I said zero feats are spent being able to Planar Bind.

Quote
What, precisely, do you think a Binder is giving up to Bind Zceryll?  Seriously, what the heck are you talking about?  That one vestige does more than virtually any other!  That's like saying a Wizard gives up a lot when he decides to cast Shivering Touch on a dragon.  Sure, he can't cast anything else in that slot, but he just killed a dragon in one hit, so who cares?  Buer means losing out on other vestiges just for this day, but as a Binder you pick whatever vestige would help out most.  Heck, with Expel Vestige you can always chuck Buer for something else if you need.

So now we are adding feats to the Binder to get it to bind things that are crap, and then replace them with non crap bindings, so we can say they can heal and still do other things. Okay.

Quote
You keep saying "full spellcaster" like that alone is amazing, but Healers are full spellcasters too, and so are Warmages.  What matters is the quality of spells, and while DNs have some decent ones, they're not Wizard or Cleric caliber (which is what most people assume when people say "full spellcaster") nor are they Sorc caliber.

Yes, they are, as they are literally Sorc/Wizard/Cleric spells, and some of the better ones.

Quote
It does enough damage to kill the majority of even CR opponents in two hits (one with metamagic)... and denies actions in between those hits.  It does twice as much damage as most blast spells (on a save, it does the same damage).  It hits all enemies in an area but doesn't hit friends.  It hits the weakest of the higher level saves (Ref) and does a type of damage that's the least likely to be resisted. Yeah, it's an encounter killer, far more than Fear (too many high level enemies are immune to that) or EBT (useless on anything that's flying or strong enough to get around the grapple... which is more and more stuff at higher levels).  The "etc" you mention is probably Cloudkill, which is a solid spell to be sure but needs something else to keep people inside it or it's not very effective (EBT might help here, or not, depending on the monster).

Are you kidding? Have you ever even read the spell? It does fireball level damage. It does the same 1d6 per CL that every other blast spell does, and it's reflex half too. It doesn't kill CR appropriate enemies in two hits, or even 3, and yes, if you apply so much metamagic that it would be a 12th level spell without reduction it can be pretty solid, but so can four hundred other spells. It's a blasting spell that doesn't suck ass thanks to force damage and a one round stun, and being party friendly. Great. That's not the best spell out there.

Quote
And you're making it clear you haven't played a DN before when you refer to "infinite beat sticks for damage."  You don't even get any until level 8, and when you do get them they're MUCH weaker than normal stuff.  They lack the feats that make most mundane types strong (Shock Trooper, archery feats, etc).  They hit for pathetic damage.  You can't fit that many of them around any particular target.  It's hard to get ones that both fly and are actually useful for more than transport.  Mostly, what they have is a lot of hitpoints... that's about it.  Seriously, the damage output from your Animate Dead minions is really not going to end fights like you seem to think it will... plus they're not intelligent at all.

1) Oh goody, more insults about how I've never played a class. That's totally new and different from every argument you've ever had with anyone.

2) Let me explain how infinite works. It means that it doesn't matter if they suck, because you have infinity.

Quote
Solid walls of undead can be bypassed like a sword and board Fighter.

Not by most Constructs, hence the statement.

Quote
So I'd love to hear how you think a level 6 (just picking a random level here, if you prefer you can pick a different one) Dread Necromancer has plenty of good spells, and more of them, than a Sorcerer.  The DN has Ray of Exhaustion, Summon Undead III, Inflict Serious Wounds... and really not much else to work with there unless they got a particularly good Advanced Learning (I went with Ghoul Glyph).

So your example Sorcerer has Glitterdust, and what for a third level spell Stinking Cloud? Meanwhile, the Dread Necro has Fort save or lose, Will save or suck, Ray of Exhaustion, Summon Undead III, and an advanced learning, let's say Kelgore's Grave Mist, a fear aura, DR, Negative Energy Burst, and probably some undead minions. Yeah, those sound about on par.

Quote
Except I played a "without bullshit cheese" DN and you know what?  The Sorcerer was WAY out in front.  I found that with the DN, my limited spell range and lack of versatility really hurt.

Probably because you suck as a human being, and can't figure out how to Planar Bind, and you don't consider Arcane Thesis + Easy meta on a Loredrake Kobold to be cheese.

Now stop asking me to explain things that happened in your game and we can talk about things that are available to everyone. Or keep using one game you played as your evidence of everything, and I'll keep having to mock you.

Quote
Didn't you JUST say "But I'm not the one claiming that not having bullshit tricks that break the game is why Dread Necromancers..."?  A blaster Sorc is hardly a game breaking bullshit trick (just a solid optimized archetypal caster), but a Dread Necromancer using Planar Binding with Arcane Disciple to get infinite wishes (and somehow using them to get a +arbitrary Belt of Magnificence despite that being too valuable for wish) absolutely is.  You want to compare a Sorc to that guy?  Compare one who did the same thing, except he spent his wealth on Knowstones and now can spontaneously cast the entire Wizard/Sorc list.  And heck, that's even legal with wish.

So... that was funny. 1) Yes, your favorite bullshit cheese is too cheese, that's the whole point of why your tier system is made of ass, you assume that things you don't like are banned, and things you do like are never touched. So Sorcerers can dip into Dragon for feats that meta reduce ontop of Arcane Thesis, the third most absurd feat in the game, but if a Dread Necromancer tries to Planar Bind a legal target, the Banhammer must fall.

Or, to summarize you in the most hilarious post you have ever made:

"But I was using Item Familiar and Warbeast Template responsibly on my Factotum, so it's allowed, but you are using Item Familiar and Warbeast unfairly on your Rogue, so it shouldn't be allowed, and that's what Factotums are better than Rogues."

Also, learn to read. There is no limit on Wish, it's so funny how little you actually know about the rules.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2011, 02:11:44 AM by Kaelik »

Kaelik

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 704
    • Email
Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #698 on: March 21, 2011, 02:09:59 AM »
You lost me there. You just confirmed you're needing Arcane Disciple.

No, I just said, hey, I can get those spells without using Arcane Disciple.

Excuse me, but planar binding does require payment for the services of binded outsiders. The Dread Necron doesn't all have the mind control stuff and debuffs to make them their slaves.

Unless you use the whole "Charisma check" rules for the spell right in it's description.
Quote
unreasonable commands are never agreed to

So you think "fight in a battle" or "cast buffs spells on me" or "cast this spell in this location" is an unreasonable command? If so, then you are weird.

snakeman830

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3494
  • BG's resident furry min/maxxer
Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #699 on: March 21, 2011, 02:49:17 AM »
Kaelik, perhaps you've forgotten something about Planar Binding.

Whatever you bound hates you. 

You ripped it from its home plane and are trying to tell it to do your bidding.  A Dread Necro without Arcane Disciple...has no way of keeping the critter there save killing it, which is a little counterproductive to world-altering power.  It can just walk off and ignore you because you have no way of keeping it bound.  Without keeping it in one spot, you don't even get to try and convince it otherwise.  This is how the spell itself works if you don't have the Magic Circle cast first.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.