Author Topic: Tier System For Classes (Repost)  (Read 515529 times)

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snakeman830

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #660 on: March 20, 2011, 05:24:15 PM »
I would have to disagree.  What a Fighter is capable of doesn't change through the levels at all, so what little is said there is pretty universal.  Only when we got into tier 2 and up did multiple possibilities (useable at most levels) arise.  Tiers 4 and below are pretty linear in ability.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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Kaelik

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #661 on: March 20, 2011, 05:38:49 PM »
I would have to disagree.  What a Fighter is capable of doesn't change through the levels at all, so what little is said there is pretty universal.  Only when we got into tier 2 and up did multiple possibilities (useable at most levels) arise.  Tiers 4 and below are pretty linear in ability.

Are you capable of reading? I ask, because as far as I can see, no one actually said anything about the rate at which people become capable through levels. So your statement is apparently disagreeing with an invisible poster that no one but you can see.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #662 on: March 20, 2011, 06:08:40 PM »
Kaelik: I would have to agree with what you posted earlier. The post doesn't show any examples using actual numbers or anything, but far as I know this thread is more about compiling things most people already agree about on some level, so little persuasion is needed. Then again, while I think ranking classes according to tiers makes it easier to refer to different power levels, I don't really care about the discussion that goes on in this thread...

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snakeman830

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #663 on: March 20, 2011, 06:13:48 PM »
I would have to disagree.  What a Fighter is capable of doesn't change through the levels at all, so what little is said there is pretty universal.  Only when we got into tier 2 and up did multiple possibilities (useable at most levels) arise.  Tiers 4 and below are pretty linear in ability.

Are you capable of reading? I ask, because as far as I can see, no one actually said anything about the rate at which people become capable through levels. So your statement is apparently disagreeing with an invisible poster that no one but you can see.
You were implying that everything Jaron stated in those summaries was only his opinion.  Those situations are pretty average for expecting players to contend with and claiming otherwise shows ignorance.  Note that the Wizard also had many options listed for as low as level 3 for each situation, so Jaron was in no way comparing level 17 wizards to level 5 fighters, nor was he comparing playstyles.  All he is comparing is what the individual classes are actually capable of, not necessarily what people will do with them.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #664 on: March 20, 2011, 06:48:12 PM »
Hi, a question (may have been answered before, but just in case): What is the level assumed for the three situations?
It looks like level 6 pcs at least (since the black dragon threatening the area probably is at least large size and thus probably at least young adult/CR 9). And is the level assumed the same for each of the three situations (use of e.g. shapeshange by wizards assumes level 17 in some situations)?
Thanks!

- Giacomo

The Shapechange thing was just to show that it happens through all levels.  Note the first tactic mentioned for the dragon scenario with a Wizard was perfectly doable at level 7 (Greater Floating Disk was the highest level spell used, and is a level 4 spell).  I figured level 7 is a good level for a dragon fighting scenario.  The second scenario shows tactics available at every level from 1 (Disguise Self) on up, as that scenario is more appropriate to lower level groups.  Fighting an army with just a few PCs seems like a higher level scenario, so I listed tactics starting at level 9 or so (creating fortifications and the like).  In general I tried to show things the classes could do from the lowest level I'd expect to see the scenario on up to the high levels.  You don't see that as much for classes like the Fighter, whose tactics in general don't actually change much from level 6 to level 20 (part of the problem, really).

But those are just general scenarios.  If you'll read more of the FAQ, you'll note that I prioritize levels 6-15, since at the lowest levels (1-5) the differences aren't as obvious anyway and the highest levels (16+) aren't played as often by the vast majority of groups (according to what surveys I've seen).

And yes, the post summarizes how the game is played... I can't go through absolutely every last detail of every class with statistics to show it.  Frankly, it's pretty obvious to most folks who've played for any significant amount of time that a Wizard is noticeably above a Binder, who is noticeably above a Fighter... this fills in the classes a specific person may not yet be familiar with.  If you want though, you can always check through all the various "why each class is in its tier" threads, which do go over each class in far more detail. 

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #665 on: March 20, 2011, 07:06:06 PM »
The Shapechange thing was just to show that it happens through all levels.  Note the first tactic mentioned for the dragon scenario with a Wizard was perfectly doable at level 7 (Greater Floating Disk was the highest level spell used, and is a level 4 spell).  I figured level 7 is a good level for a dragon fighting scenario.  The second scenario shows tactics available at every level from 1 (Disguise Self) on up, as that scenario is more appropriate to lower level groups.  Fighting an army with just a few PCs seems like a higher level scenario, so I listed tactics starting at level 9 or so (creating fortifications and the like).  In general I tried to show things the classes could do from the lowest level I'd expect to see the scenario on up to the high levels.  You don't see that as much for classes like the Fighter, whose tactics in general don't actually change much from level 6 to level 20 (part of the problem, really).

But those are just general scenarios.  If you'll read more of the FAQ, you'll note that I prioritize levels 6-15, since at the lowest levels (1-5) the differences aren't as obvious anyway and the highest levels (16+) aren't played as often by the vast majority of groups (according to what surveys I've seen).

And yes, the post summarizes how the game is played... I can't go through absolutely every last detail of every class with statistics to show it.  Frankly, it's pretty obvious to most folks who've played for any significant amount of time that a Wizard is noticeably above a Binder, who is noticeably above a Fighter... this fills in the classes a specific person may not yet be familiar with.  If you want though, you can always check through all the various "why each class is in its tier" threads, which do go over each class in far more detail. 

JaronK

Kaelik

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #666 on: March 20, 2011, 07:07:24 PM »
You were implying that everything Jaron stated in those summaries was only his opinion.  Those situations are pretty average for expecting players to contend with and claiming otherwise shows ignorance.  Note that the Wizard also had many options listed for as low as level 3 for each situation, so Jaron was in no way comparing level 17 wizards to level 5 fighters, nor was he comparing playstyles.  All he is comparing is what the individual classes are actually capable of, not necessarily what people will do with them.

No, I was explicitly stating (not implying), that everything JaronK said was largely content void, and that even the classifications of the tiers themselves are (purposefully? Accidentally through selection?) vague and devoid of any actual content that would allow anyone to actually claim that classes are or are not part of a tier.

It doesn't matter if the situations are common or not, because the situations are vague, and the PCs responses are also vague, with no analysis of likely success, or usefulness.

It is instead, an attempt to persuade, and not an attempt to inform, as it avoids informing wherever possible.

Kaelik: I would have to agree with what you posted earlier. The post doesn't show any examples using actual numbers or anything, but far as I know this thread is more about compiling things most people already agree about on some level, so little persuasion is needed. Then again, while I think ranking classes according to tiers makes it easier to refer to different power levels, I don't really care about the discussion that goes on in this thread...

Well, yes and no. I have no idea what the original purpose of the Tier system was in JaronKs mind, but in fact, the result has been that the correct placement of Fighters and Wizards or, to borrow your phrase "compiling things most people already agree about" resulted in JaronK's guesses and classifications of things he didn't think about, understand, or applied his absurd criteria to, being taken as fact for more obscure or difficult to judge classes, to the point where people, JaronK especially, have decided that the Tier system is the most accurate determination of class balance possible, and led to a bunch of complete confusion about class balance.

So people genuinely think that Dread Necromancers, Factotums, and Swordsages are all just as strong, and all weaker than Favored Souls, when in fact, Favored Souls are a MADly bullshit class with all the deficiencies of a Sorcerer casting from a worse list off two casting stats, where the Dread Necromancer is a full caster with more spells of each level than three Sorcerers together, and free class features, and infinite healing, and an infinite army, and access to Planar Binding. (And Factotums and Swordsages are lacking in offense, subject to all the usual things that negate fighters, but the ability to bypass some very minor obstacles sometimes apparently brings them up to the level of full casting undead army called outsiders beast.)
« Last Edit: March 20, 2011, 07:17:01 PM by Kaelik »

snakeman830

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #667 on: March 20, 2011, 07:16:53 PM »
A Favored Soul's spell list is far larger than a Dread Necro's as is a Sorcerer's.  Most books add to the Favored Soul's and Sorcerer's lists because, for the most part, they are identical to Cleric and Wizard respectively (there are a few spells that are only Sorcerer, some that are only Wizard, and Favored Souls don't get access to domain spells, but that's it for changes).

Keep in mind that a Dread Necro gets Planar Binding...but no way to control anything he binds short of killing and reanimating.  This drastically reduces their power with the spell.  Plus, their limited list makes them incredibly weak in many situations (not much they can do versus constructs, for example) as does the dependance on minions (armies or even big meatbags are tough to bring with you on a typical dungeon crawl.  Never mind that DN's don't get limitless armies, just very large ones, and their disposable minions will run up a rather high gp cost without careful management).  Meanwhile, a Favored Soul, while being DAD for casting, has thier pick of one of the broadest spell lists in the game (which includes Miracle and therefore the ability to replicate any spell of 7th level or lower).  The potential is far, far greater.

The Tiers are not saying that X=Y because thy'er both in Tier Z, it's saying that they are near enough that what challenges X isn't too different from what challenges Y and both will contribute pretty evenly in a party together.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2011, 07:25:44 PM by snakeman830 »
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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That explains so much about my life.
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Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

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Tshern

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #668 on: March 20, 2011, 07:22:12 PM »
I would definitely agree about the Dread Necromancer thing, it is a strong class no matter how you look at it. Unless I am totally mistaken, it has been one of the biggest sources of argument in this thread. Perhaps it would be best to see the tier system as a starting place for those, who are just getting into the mechanics of D&D. Most of the classes are rather accurately placed, even if there are some I don't agree about and as such could help newcomers to get some perspective.

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Tshern

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #669 on: March 20, 2011, 07:23:54 PM »
Dread Necromancers can easily get Magic circles to their spell list though. Doesn't take too much to make them excellent users of Diplomacy either.

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snakeman830

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #670 on: March 20, 2011, 07:27:38 PM »
Dread Necromancers can easily get Magic circles to their spell list though. Doesn't take too much to make them excellent users of Diplomacy either.
I will agree to this, but that's not the class doing it, but feats.  By the same useage, a Beguiler can get Miracle on their list, but that doesn't mean Beguilers belong in a higher tier than Crusaders.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

Tshern

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #671 on: March 20, 2011, 07:30:21 PM »
Dread Necromancers can easily get Magic circles to their spell list though. Doesn't take too much to make them excellent users of Diplomacy either.
I will agree to this, but that's not the class doing it, but feats.  By the same useage, a Beguiler can get Miracle on their list, but that doesn't mean Beguilers belong in a higher tier than Crusaders.
Yet Factotums are always assumed to have access to Font of inspiration. And, actually, I do believe Beguilers are of a higher tier than Crusaders simply because it is entirely feasible for them to get Miracle and other gamebreakers without much difficulty.

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Kaelik

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #672 on: March 20, 2011, 07:30:50 PM »
A Favored Soul's spell list is far larger than a Dread Necro's as is a Sorcerer's.  Most books add to the Favored Soul's and Sorcerer's lists because, for the most part, they are identical to Cleric and Wizard respectively (there are a few spells that are only Sorcerer, some that are only Wizard, and Favored Souls don't get access to domain spells, but that's it for changes).

Keep in mind that a Dread Necro gets Planar Binding...but no way to control anything he binds short of killing and reanimating.  This drastically reduces their power.  Meanwhile, a Favored Soul, while being DAD for casting, has thier pick of one of the broadest spell lists in the game.  The potential is far, far greater.

A Favored Souls spell list being huge doesn't matter. If I make a class that has literally every single spell in the game on it's spell list, but gets one spell known of each level, it doesn't matter that it has the biggest spell list in the game. It still only casts off it's spells known.

And the Favored Soul and Sorcerer both have fewer spells known than the Dread Necromancer, so in order to claim it is better, you would have to present some hypothetical list of spells known specifically that is better than the Dread Necromancers entire list and class abilities, and accounts for the MAD of the Favored Soul.

As for Planar Binding, they also can use Charisma checks, just like everyone else, and they can also use Magic Jar, seeing as how they have it as a spell known. So no, they can do more than animate the dead bodies, though yes, they can also do that.

And take a serious look at the Cleric list sometime. They get a lot of good spells that are only good in very specific situations, and those are particularly bad for Favored Souls, with limited spells known. Yeah, you could use a Favored Soul to build a buffbot, but frankly, you are then just a fighter, with limited fights per day, and they don't have the spells known to pull the good Cleric buffing or having so many spells up that all stack.

Yes, Favored Souls are ass, and I'd rather have half the Tier 3 list in my party, and yes, Dread Necromancers are insanely better than them, and better than most of the Tier 3 classes by such an absurd margin that it's silly to have them in that group.

The potential of a Favored Soul is to suck, and something that actually challenges a Dread Necromancer could kill entire parties of Factotums and Swordsages.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #673 on: March 20, 2011, 07:31:46 PM »
Dread Necromancers can easily get Magic circles to their spell list though. Doesn't take too much to make them excellent users of Diplomacy either.
I will agree to this, but that's not the class doing it, but feats.  By the same useage, a Beguiler can get Miracle on their list, but that doesn't mean Beguilers belong in a higher tier than Crusaders.

No, it's the character doing it. With the feats. That they always get. Just like it can also be done with an Eternal Wand of Magic Circle. Which comes from the Wealth that all characters always get.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #674 on: March 20, 2011, 07:38:16 PM »

Heh, some variant of "Shivering Touch" would probably come up in every one of those scenarios, since it's available by level 5 and instant kills dragons (especially with a lesser rod of maximize).  Plus, Spectral Hand is a level 2 spell that ensures you don't have to get close to use it.  I don't really want to get into every exact combination of class and scenario simply because it takes a long time, but suffice to say the usual problem of "if you think about the scenario, there's some spell that deals with that scenario" comes up.

Quote
Another question: I guess the tiers only compare the pure class abilities, not the class abilities combined with standard equipment (as per wbl). Am I correct?

To an extent, yes.  It's only about classes.  Sometimes a particular piece of gear works better for one class than another (for example, a Lesser Rod of Maximize is only useful to people who have a class that casts spells) and so that might be factored in a bit, but I wanted this to be a general case tool, so I didn't want to make any assumptions about what gear you might have.  After all, some people play with magic marts around every corner, some play by RAW (where most marts don't necessarily have all you need and most gear is randomly dropped), and some play where getting the exact item you want when you need it is almost impossible.  I wanted it to apply to everyone, so gear's not really factored in here one way or the other.  Besides, if one party member has all the gear they want, the other probably does too, so it balances out.  Remember, this is about how classes work together in a party... it's not about PvP arena battles where one tries to kill the other.  The question is "in a given scenario, how useful is this class" not "who's better than who?"  The point is that players have more fun when they all feel like they're working together, while they get frustrated if one person is the star and someone else just feels like a henchman.

As for Dread Necromancers... last time I played one from level 1 to level 12, while it was a solid contributer it was obviously not as strong as the Sorcerer (who was clearly leaving it in the dust by level 10) and yet was obviously a fine fit with the Beguiler and Swordsage who were in the party.  While DNs have a solid list of spells, they rely on the DM giving them good monsters to reanimate... if that doesn't happen, there's not much you can do about it.  Planar Binding doesn't come with the necessary control spells so all you get out of that at the mid levels is some drastically under CR'd skeletons and maybe some useful transport (skeletal Nightmares provide flying mounts).  Getting a huge amount of skeletons isn't actually all that helpful... unless you get something really good to reanimate (like a 10 headed hydra or a really high HD giant) those guys basically become cannon fodder that gets in the way, and most of the really good zombies/skeletons are too big to fit in a lot of medium sized dungeons.    Grabbing the right Advanced Learning spells can help (Animate Dread Warrior is AMAZING if the DM ever throws a decent humanoid at you, while Ghoul Glyph, Black Sand, and Shivering Touch are all solid), but in general DNs are one of those classes that boil down to "if the DM hits me with stuff I can use they're great, otherwise not so much."

And I have to wonder about the "but they could totally use feats to get Magic Circle and Dimensional Anchor on their spell list!"  Well, yes, but should I rank a Warmage at T2 because he can do the same thing and get Planar Binding too?  What about Monks?  They can cross class UMD and get wands and scrolls of Planar Binding, Magic Circle, and so on as well!  Where does this end?  The simple answer is to look back at the original post and note that I said "equivalent optimization."  If we're comparing Dread Necromancers with the necessary two Arcane Disciples to get the spells to Planar Bind Efrettis and such, then we should be comparing them to a Sorcerer who uses Mage of the Arcane Order to get more spells on his list (that's about equivalent) and can do the exact thing... plus cast the rest of the Wizard list.  The DN is still behind, and noticeably so.  Whatever you do with optimization for one, do it for the rest too before comparing.

Meanwhile, the Favored Soul can have whatever the strongest Cleric spells allowed in your game are.  That's absolutely amazing.  The Favored Soul is much like the Sorcerer... it only looks underpowered if you're used to playing with the T1 version (Cleric or Wizard, respectively).  Judged on their own merits, they're amazing.

And note that I don't assume all Factotums have FoI.  It's common as heck, but the more I've played that class, the more I've realized you really don't need that feat.

JaronK
« Last Edit: March 20, 2011, 07:43:10 PM by JaronK »

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #675 on: March 20, 2011, 07:42:08 PM »
So people genuinely think that Dread Necromancers, Factotums, and Swordsages are all just as strong, and all weaker than Favored Souls, when in fact, Favored Souls are a MADly bullshit class with all the deficiencies of a Sorcerer casting from a worse list off two casting stats, where the Dread Necromancer is a full caster with more spells of each level than three Sorcerers together, and free class features, and infinite healing, and an infinite army, and access to Planar Binding. (And Factotums and Swordsages are lacking in offense, subject to all the usual things that negate fighters, but the ability to bypass some very minor obstacles sometimes apparently brings them up to the level of full casting undead army called outsiders beast.)

You're forgeting one little detail there. Altough Dread Necros do have the Planar Binding line, they don't have either Dimensional Anchor or Magic Circle against Alignment. So your planar bindings are allowing SR and the outsiders can simply teleport/planeshift away instead of becoming your monster. Not very effecient.

And then the Dread Necro also lacks all the fancy divinations, high mobility, misdirection and contigencies that puts the original fullcasters on top. It's actually possible a swordsage could get the jump into a dread necro and slice it into pieces, instead of slamming into an Alarm, Rope Trick or Astral Projection, or the Dread Necro simply haved divined his coming the day before.

The infinite healing is kinda useless in combat, and costs you a feat, wich the Dread Necro is quite hungry for. Shirt of Wraith Stalking is a 6K item that renders all your mass produced undead useless (and a factotum can actually use divination to predict he'll be fighting mass undeads, and get one since he's at it).

Meanwhile what does the sorceror cares that the Dread Necro knows 3 times as much spells? The sorceror will know the spells that matter like teleport, contigency, Wings of Cover, Dispel Magic, Polymorphs, ect, ect

Now you're right that the Favored Soul is looking bad on this, because the cleric spell list isn't as good as the wizard/spell list, and the favored soul can't cheat into geting wizard/sorceror spells trough Domains, and he doesn't even have turn undead to fuel DMM. But you're also exagerating the Dread Necro power, as he gets a lot of redudant stuff, and lacks several of the best fullcaster tricks.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #676 on: March 20, 2011, 07:50:31 PM »
I should note that the Favored Soul can already cast Black Sand for infinite negative energy healing (if that spell kills anything ever, they're permanently turned into Black Sand that you can then put in the boots of any negative energy critter).  They can also, at CL 11, create a Necrosis Carnex via Animate Dead (See MMV), and that's a creature that runs around auto healing all undead nearby.  Costs 200gp in Cold Iron Bands to make one.  When I played a DN, I didn't really use the Charnel Touch to heal past level 8 or so, and even when I did use it it didn't come up in combat because it's WAY too slow.  I actually just used the Black Sand trick for effective 1d6 fast healing.  Though even that's too slow to really matter a lot in combat... it's just less book keeping to think about.  My DM actually thanked me for it because it meant he could throw more challenges at the party faster due to the automatic healing.

So, ranking the DNs Charnel Touch as some huge advantage isn't quite appropriate... it's a downtime healing thing only.  Binders and Crusaders do it a lot better, and any caster that can cast Animate Dead can do it just as well by CL 11.  Crusaders can even do useful mid combat healing (Binders can't unless they get Zceryll, and even then it needs to be quite high level to matter).

Their infinite armies are also far more interesting on paper than in practice.  Try one out sometime... it's a fun class, but it's very clearly not in the league of a Sorcerer of Favored Soul.  Heck, the Favored Soul can even get undead armies faster... they can start casting Animate Dead at 6.  DNs wait till level 8 for that. 

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #677 on: March 20, 2011, 07:51:12 PM »
One thing about beguilers and dread necros is that by the time you reach mid levels their spell lists will have a high amount of redundancy.  How many different illusions, mind effecting will save spells, and negative energy spells do you really need? Sorcerers and favored souls obviously get to cherry pick their spells so once they hit the mid levels their higher level spells don't start to become redundant with their lower level spells.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #678 on: March 20, 2011, 08:01:12 PM »
One thing about beguilers and dread necros is that by the time you reach mid levels their spell lists will have a high amount of redundancy.  How many different illusions, mind effecting will save spells, and negative energy spells do you really need? Sorcerers and favored souls obviously get to cherry pick their spells so once they hit the mid levels their higher level spells don't start to become redundant with their lower level spells.

They get plenty of redundancy before that. "More spells known than any sorcerer dreams of" is a little less impressive when about half of them are "inflict fear" or "touch attack that deals some damage". I've been playing a low-level dread necro lately and even at low levels you can really feel the difference between them and a class that gets to pick its spell list.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #679 on: March 20, 2011, 08:21:14 PM »
Yeah, the redundancy gets pretty amazing.  Many of their spells are absolutely worthless (Bestow Wound?).  Heck, they've even got the same spell at two levels.  Really, the difference between the Sorcerer or Favored Soul's "I get fewer spells but they're all the best of what's available and none have to be redundant at all" vs the Dread Necromancer or Warmage's "I have tons of spells but most are useless because I already had something else that did that" is pretty dramatic in actual play.

The problem is less noticed with Beguilers, who actually do have more versatility in their spells, but it's still there too.

JaronK