Author Topic: Tier System For Classes (Repost)  (Read 515062 times)

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snakeman830

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #640 on: March 11, 2011, 01:21:59 PM »
You know a class blows when you're comparing it to a commoner.
A wizard is like a commoner, but with full casting and some bonus feats.
and a good will save, better class skill list, and more weapon proficiencies.
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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #641 on: March 11, 2011, 05:43:01 PM »
You know a class blows when you're comparing it to a commoner.
A wizard is like a commoner, but with full casting and some bonus feats.
and a good will save, better class skill list, and more weapon proficiencies.
And a pet parrot/slug/polywog/whatever. Oh, and he reads for a living.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

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lans

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #642 on: March 11, 2011, 05:46:47 PM »
You know a class blows when you're comparing it to a commoner.
A wizard is like a commoner, but with full casting and some bonus feats.
and a good will save, better class skill list, and more weapon proficiencies.
And a pet parrot/slug/polywog/whatever. Oh, and he reads for a living.
Thats really just a bonus feat.
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Jopustopin

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #643 on: March 11, 2011, 05:48:14 PM »
You know a class blows when you're comparing it to a commoner.

Wow the wizard blows.

AleksanderTheGreat

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #644 on: March 11, 2011, 05:49:48 PM »
At least the wizard has a big, hard book to smack his opponents with. :P
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #645 on: March 11, 2011, 06:53:18 PM »
You know a class blows when you're comparing it to a commoner.

Wow the wizard blows.

Oh yeah they do
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Bozwevial

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #646 on: March 12, 2011, 01:46:43 AM »
You know a class blows when you're comparing it to a commoner.

Wow the wizard blows.

Oh yeah they do
That's more sucking than blowing, really.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #647 on: March 13, 2011, 01:05:11 AM »
You know a class blows when you're comparing it to a commoner.

Wow the wizard blows.

Oh yeah they do
That's more sucking than blowing, really.
...Is it getting hot in here, or is just me?

Hot under the collar, that is. I had to stop reading that thread after page 2 and come back here where things make SENSE.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

lans

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #648 on: March 15, 2011, 02:03:34 PM »
Back to Soulborn- Does the fact that it has an in class ability to gain flight, via Astral Vambraces, make it better than other weaksauce classes which don't?
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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #649 on: March 15, 2011, 02:23:50 PM »
Back to Soulborn- Does the fact that it has an in class ability to gain flight, via Astral Vambraces, make it better than other weaksauce classes which don't?
30 Raptorans say no...
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Bloody Initiate

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #650 on: March 15, 2011, 02:32:28 PM »
It's also at level 14 that the Soulborn gains a flight speed of 20 with average maneuverability. More than a little underwhelming.
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lans

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #651 on: March 15, 2011, 02:51:43 PM »
 :banghead

I forgot how late they got their binds.
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Bloody Initiate

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #652 on: March 15, 2011, 03:39:38 PM »
Pushing EVERYTHING meldshaping-related down several levels would go a long way to fixing the Soulborn, but like all 3.5 mistakes, there is no one to make official fixes anymore. The final supplements gave us shit like kobolds pretending to be dragons - a major caster buff - instead of even a remote effort to fix their mistakes. Also, as much as I like MoI, as I said it seems like the better creators were working on other projects, and that most of the coolest stuff about MoI was more of an accident.
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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #653 on: March 15, 2011, 07:56:37 PM »
Also, as much as I like MoI, as I said it seems like the better creators were working on other projects, and that most of the coolest stuff about MoI was more of an accident.
[/quote

Well... is there a quick fix for the soulborn?

I think a quick fix for both Totemist and Incarnate is to give them full BAB. That pushes them a bit. And then you basically can the soulborn - it's totally redundant.

The other fixes that are necessary are for the crappy avatars. They suck compared to so many other binds, when they should not only look cool, but actually rock.

Bloody Initiate

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #654 on: March 15, 2011, 08:21:56 PM »
Also, as much as I like MoI, as I said it seems like the better creators were working on other projects, and that most of the coolest stuff about MoI was more of an accident.

Well... is there a quick fix for the soulborn?

I think a quick fix for both Totemist and Incarnate is to give them full BAB. That pushes them a bit. And then you basically can the soulborn - it's totally redundant.

The other fixes that are necessary are for the crappy avatars. They suck compared to so many other binds, when they should not only look cool, but actually rock.

I'm not great at plotting appropriate power levels, I tend to balance UP and let more experienced players tell me when I've gone too far or not far enough.

Full BAB would be fine.

Sinfire Titan said in his handbook that giving Totemists Magical Beast HD would be a nice and easy patch, and it does look pretty good. That's probably the easiest one to houserule.

More BAB would also be nice for the Incarnate, but I'd also want more class skills and skills per level, as well as doing away with the aligned soulmelds restriction and general focus on alignment (D&D's focus on alignment is lame imo, most parties are required to ignore a lot of alignment stuff just to function). Basically the Incarnate needs a bigger band-aid than the Totemist.

The Soulborn is redundant, as you said, but its focus is clearly supposed to be combat. A fix that made it more unique would be nice. Hell just a few more unique class features would be a giant bonus. Letting it switch its essentia around as a free action would spare it the swift action every round, and maybe some kind of kicker on its smites. Really though, no one smart is going to play the Soulborn without a fix anyway, so until someone gets serious about a fix no one is going to get serious about playing it, and most groups can scrap it as you say.

As for the Avatars, my first use of MoI taught me not to sneeze at small bonuses which you can build up and accumulate into something formidable. That's how meldshapers get their groove on, by cherry picking small bonuses from multiple soulmelds to achieve a tailored attack routine. They COULD be better for sure, but they're not garbage now.
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Sir Giacomo

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #655 on: March 20, 2011, 02:26:58 PM »
FAQ:

(...)

For example, here's how the various Tiers might deal with a specific set of situations, cut to spoilers due to size:

[spoiler]Situation 1: A Black Dragon has been plaguing an area, and he lives in a trap filled cave. Deal with him.

Situation 2: You have been tasked by a nearby country with making contact with the leader of the underground slave resistance of an evil tyranical city state, and get him to trust you.

Situation 3: A huge army of Orcs is approaching the city, and should be here in a week or so. Help the city prepare for war.

Okay, so, here we go.

Tier 6: A Commoner. Situation 1: If he's REALLY optimized, he could be a threat to the dragon, but a single attack from the dragon could take him out too. He can't really offer help getting to said dragon. He could fill up the entire cave with chickens, but that's probably not a good idea. Really, he's dead weight unless his build was perfectly optimized for this situation (see my Commoner charger build for an example). Situation 2: Well, without any stealth abilities or diplomacy, he's not too handy here, again unless he's been exactly optimized for this precise thing (such as through Martial Study to get Diplomacy). Really, again his class isn't going to help much here. Situation 3: Again, no help from his class, though the chicken thing might be amusing if you're creative.

Tier 5: A Fighter. Situation 1: If he's optimized for this sort of thing (a tripper might have trouble, though a charger would be handy if he could get off a clear shot, and an archer would likely work) he can be a threat during the main fight, but he's probably just about useless for sneaking down through the cave and avoiding any traps the dragon has set out without alerting said dragon. Most likely the party Rogue would want to hide him in a bag of holding or something. Once in the fight if he's optimized he'll be solid, but if not (if he's a traditional SAB build or a dual weilding monkey grip type) he's going to be a liability in the combat (though not as bad as the Commoner). Situation 2: As the commoner before, his class really won't help here. His class just doesn't provide any useful tools for the job. It's possible (but very unlikely) that he's optimized in a way that helps in this situation, just as with the Commoner. Situation 3: Again, his class doesn't help much, but at least he could be pretty useful during the main battle as a front line trooper of some sort. Hack up the enemy and rack up a body count.

Tier 4: The Rogue. Situation 1: Well he can certainly help get the party to the dragon, even if he's not totally optimized for it. His stealth and detection abilities will come in handy here, and if he puts the less stealthy people in portable holes and the like he's good to go. During the combat he's likely not that helpful (it's hard to sneak attack a dragon) but if he had a lot of prep time he might have been able to snag a scroll or wand of Shivering Touch, in which case he could be extremely helpful... he just has to be really prepared and on the ball, and the resources have to be available in advance. He's quite squishy though, and that dragon is a serious threat. Situation 2: With his stealth and diplomacy, he's all over this. Maybe not 100% perfect, but still pretty darn solid. An individual build might not have all the necessary skills, but most should be able to make do. Situation 3: Perhaps he can use Gather Information and such to gain strategic advantages before the battle... that would be handy. There's a few he's pretty likely to be able to pull off. He might even be able to use Diplomacy to buff the army a bit and at least get them into a good morale situation pre battle. Or, if he's a different set up, he could perhaps go out and assassinate a few of the orc commanders before the fight, which could be handy. And then during the fight he could do the same. It's not incredible, but it's something.

Tier 3: The Beguiler. Situation 1: Again, getting through the cave is easy, perhaps easier with spell support. And again, if he's really prepared in advance, Shivering Touch via UMD is a possibility. But he's also got spells that could be quite useful here depending on the situation, and if he's optimized heavily, this is going to be pretty easy... Shadowcraft Mage, perhaps? Or Earth Dreamer? Either way, he's got a lot of available options, though like the Rogue he's somewhat squishy (and that Dragon won't fall for many illusions with his Blindsense) so he still needs that party support. Situation 2: Again, with his skills he's all over this one, plus the added ability to cast spells like charm makes this one much easier, allowing him to make contacts in the city quickly while he figures out where this guy is. Situation 3: Like the Rogue, he can get strategic advantages and be all over the Diplomacy. He's not quite as good at assassinating people if he takes that route (though sneaking up invisible and then using a coup de gras with a scythe is pretty darn effective), but using illusions during the fight will create some serious chaos in his favor. A single illusion of a wall of fire can really disrupt enemy formations, for example.

Tier 2: The Sorcerer. Situation 1: It really depends on the Sorcerer's spell load out. If he's got Greater Floating Disk, Spectral Hand, and Shivering Touch, this one's going to be easy as pie, since he can just float down (and carry his party in the process) to avoid many traps, then nail the dragon in one shot from a distance. If he doesn't he'd need scrolls with the same issues that the UMD Rogue and Beguiler would need. If he's got Explosive Runes he could create a bomb that would take out the Dragon in one shot. If he's got Polymorph he could turn the party melee into a Hydra for extra damage. If he's got Alter Self he could turn himself into a Skulk to get down there sneakily. Certainly, it's possible that the Sorcerer could own this scenario... if he has the right spells known. That's always the hard part for a Sorcerer. Situation 2: Again, depends on the spell. Does he have divinations that will help him know who's part of the resistance and who's actually an evil spy for the Tyranical Govenerment? Does he have charm? Alter Self would help a ton here too for disguise purposes if he has it. Once again, the options exist that could totally make this easy, but he might not have those options. Runestaffs would help a bit, but not that much. Scrolls would help too, but that requires access to them and good long term preparation. Situation 3: Again, does he have Wall of Iron or Wall of Stone to make fortifications? Does he have Wall of Fire to disrupt the battlefield? How about Mind Rape and Love's Pain to kill off the enemy commanders without any ability to stop him? Does he have Blinding Glory on his spell list, or Shapechange, or Gate? Well, maybe. He's got the power, but if his spells known don't apply here he can't do much. So, maybe he dominates this one, maybe not.

Tier 1: The Wizard. Situation 1: Memorize Greater Floating Disk, Shivering Touch, and Spectral Hand. Maybe Alter Self too for stealth reasons. Kill dragon. Memorize Animate Dead too, because Dragons make great minions (seriously, there's special rules for using that spell on dragons). Sweet, you have a new horsie! Or, you know, maybe you Mind Rape/Love's Pain and kill the dragon before he even knows you exist, then float down and check it out. Or maybe you create a horde of the dead and send them in, triggering the traps with their bodies. Or do the haunt shift trick and waltz in with a hardness of around 80 and giggle. Perhaps you cast Genesis to create a flowing time plane and then sit and think about what to do for a year while only a day passes on the outside... and cast Explosive Runes every day during that year. I'm sure you can come up with something. It's really your call. Situation 2: Check your spell list. Alter Self and Disguise Self can make you look like whoever you need to look like. Locate Creature has obvious utility. Heck, Contact Other Plane could be a total cheating method of finding the guy you're trying to find. Clairvoyance is also handy. It's all there. Situation 3: Oh no, enemy army! Well, if you've optimized for it, there's always the locate city bomb (just be careful not to blow up the friendly guys too). But if not, Love's Pain could assassinate the leaders. Wall of Iron/Stone could create fortifications, or be combined with Fabricate to armour up some of the troops. Or you could just cast Blinding Glory and now the entire enemy army is blind with no save for caster level hours. Maybe you could Planar Bind an appropriate outsider to help train the troops before the battle. Push comes to shove, Gate in a Solar, who can cast Miracle (which actually does have a "I win the battle" option)... or just Shapechange into one, if you prefer.[/spoiler]

Hi, a question (may have been answered before, but just in case): What is the level assumed for the three situations?
It looks like level 6 pcs at least (since the black dragon threatening the area probably is at least large size and thus probably at least young adult/CR 9). And is the level assumed the same for each of the three situations (use of e.g. shapeshange by wizards assumes level 17 in some situations)?
Thanks!

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #656 on: March 20, 2011, 03:13:25 PM »
Hi, a question (may have been answered before, but just in case): What is the level assumed for the three situations?
It looks like level 6 pcs at least (since the black dragon threatening the area probably is at least large size and thus probably at least young adult/CR 9). And is the level assumed the same for each of the three situations (use of e.g. shapeshange by wizards assumes level 17 in some situations)?
Thanks!

- Giacomo


This particular example seems to be mid-high level at least, but you can work up examples for all level ranges. At very low levels the tiers stand apart less drastically (tier 1-2 classes haven't had time to grow their huge toolbox and melee classes are relatively better in a fight) and some classes change tiers when you're talking about specific level ranges (healers suddenly sprouting Gate at 17, for example) but the general idea tends to hold.

Sir Giacomo

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #657 on: March 20, 2011, 04:57:40 PM »
This particular example seems to be mid-high level at least, but you can work up examples for all level ranges. At very low levels the tiers stand apart less drastically (tier 1-2 classes haven't had time to grow their huge toolbox and melee classes are relatively better in a fight) and some classes change tiers when you're talking about specific level ranges (healers suddenly sprouting Gate at 17, for example) but the general idea tends to hold.

Hmmm...the wizard mentioned uses shapechange, so the level considered appears to be at least level 17. Making the black dragon sort of wyrm status to provide a strong challenge for a party (CR 20). But contacting a leader of a resistance and/or an army of orcs appears to be a lower level scenario. Maybe JaronK can explain?

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #658 on: March 20, 2011, 05:06:36 PM »
You are deliberately picking a high level case, the post actually goes through a number of fights starting from earlier levels. The Shapechange tactics is just insult to injury more than a necessity.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #659 on: March 20, 2011, 05:21:05 PM »
You are deliberately picking a high level case, the post actually goes through a number of fights starting from earlier levels. The Shapechange tactics is just insult to injury more than a necessity.

To be fair Tshern, the examples are completely arbitrary, and don't reflect any attempt at fairness or demonstration, and are instead merely a rhetorical device to bias people in favor of JaronKs preferences.

Showing that a level 5 Fighter can't do much, and that a level 17 Wizard can do all sorts of stuff is not indicative of anything. It's true that level 17 Fighters also can't do much, and that level 5 Wizards can still do all sorts of stuff, but the examples given are not indicative, and because they are merely rhetorical tools, just choose to declare how things work out, without respect to the power of different options.

It's just like how the description of what the Tiers are is so incredibly vague and yet declarative, that we know Tier 1 classes can "do absolutely anything" (except the things they can't do) and is "Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player" (except of course, every time they can't, which is most of the time). ect.

I mean, the entire post is an exercise in rhetorical methods of convincing, with practically speaking absolutely no content.